Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Why Do CO, NW, DL, US Not Fly To More Cities in France?  
User currently offlineLH506 From Ecuador, joined May 2007, 463 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8409 times:

If you look at the recent expansion of the US carries into Europe I noticed that they fly to about every major city in Germany by now (DUS, TXL, STR, HAM, Cologne + MUC + FRA) the same is kind of true for the UK (MAN, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Bristol + LGA and LHW) or to a less extend in Italy. Why do they not expand in the same way into France?? At least I am not aware of flights into Toulouse, Nice, Marseille, Lyon etc. The flights are only into CDG.

Any explanation??


NOT FLOWN: 707 717 736/9 764 77L 787 300B2 300B4 345 RJ70/146-100 F27 ATR72 CRJ1/4/10 E120/135/40/95 Q1/2/3 M87
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGlobalATL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8378 times:

Misleading title. Nonetheless I think DL flies to NCE. I'm too lazy to verify tho

User currently onlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3466 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8357 times:

Quoting GlobalATL (Reply 1):
Misleading title. Nonetheless I think DL flies to NCE. I'm too lazy to verify tho

Yes, DL does fly JFK-NCE and flew JFK-LYS in the past but it didn't work out.

Jeremy


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24799 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8307 times:

A very basic explanation are the realities of France.

France is very Paris centric when it comes to nearly everthing including transportation, economy and business.

Outside of Nice, and some Africa service from places like Marseilles regional cities no matter how big simply do not seem to support long haul services. Even Air France has tried and failed with service from places like Lyon (a secondary hub for AF).



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1676 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8287 times:

Quoting GlobalATL (Reply 1):
Misleading title. Nonetheless I think DL flies to NCE. I'm too lazy to verify tho

What is misleading in the title, I think that it's a very good question.
I think NW has no use of flying into France as AF / KL can offer good connections to various cities in France via AMS.

DL is also partner of AF/KL so the same here

CO is running out of equipment for expanding in Europe, but also here AF/KL have the network ready.

US is StarAllliance so a bit of a different story, Most US passengers will have to connect on the LH hubs and continue on LH to their French destinations.

Off course direct flights would be preferable, but as most US carriers are still in ch.11 or just left it, they just don't have the equipment ready for more expansions in Europe. Yield and Cargo demand will play a big role in selecting new destinations.



flown on : F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8261 times:

Not to mention, Air France is a pretty good carrier, and is a founding member of SkyTeam... You don't see Continental or Northwest going ballistic with services to various cities in the Netherlands, KLM commuter carriers have that covered.

On the other hand, there is NO sykteam in Germany or Britain, to speak of. So Continental has done their homework and discovered that you can fill a 757 to Bristol and Berlin.

As far as your title goes, all of the carriers you list do, in fact, fly to France. You score an F for eye-catching ridiculous title.


User currently offlinePDXBJV From Turkey, joined Apr 2007, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8231 times:

Is it Air France, or Delta that flies to Strasbourg from ATL? I know it's one of them but I'm not sure.


TK787 PDX-BJV direct????
User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1676 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8190 times:

I think he means it not that black / white. Take also your time to read his post where he says "the flights are only to CDG"

He means : why do CO, NW, DL, US not fly to more destinations in France.
Please stop picking at the title.



flown on : F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7402 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8072 times:

Quoting PDXBJV (Reply 6):
Is it Air France, or Delta that flies to Strasbourg from ATL? I know it's one of them but I'm not sure.

There is no flight to SXB (Strasbourg) from ATL or anywhere in the U.S

Air France started to fly, in the early 90s, a 2 x Weekly SXB-LIL-JFK with A310-300 but stopped after just a couple months or so.

As mentionned in a post above, the only direct nonstop service from/to the U.S to/from France, other than Paris, is operated by Delta on JFK-NCE-JFK .
Delta also operated ATL-NCE-ATL* last summer but did not resume the flight for the summer 2007

*ATL-NCE-ATL summer 2006 : 4 x Weekly in May & June, 5 x Weekly July & Aug., 3 x Weekly in Sept.


User currently offlineTinpusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 970 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8050 times:

Quoting DALCE (Reply 4):
What is misleading in the title, I think that it's a very good question.
I think NW has no use of flying into France as AF / KL can offer good connections to various cities in France via AMS.

It is a valid question, but the wording of it suggests that none of these carriers fly to France, period and they all serve CDG!



"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineLGAtoIND From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 490 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7906 times:

If I had to guess, I would think that either DL or CO start service to LYS with the 757.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24796 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7874 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 8):
Quoting PDXBJV (Reply 6):
Is it Air France, or Delta that flies to Strasbourg from ATL? I know it's one of them but I'm not sure.

There is no flight to SXB (Strasbourg) from ATL or anywhere in the U.S

You may be confusing Strasbourg, France (SXB) with Stuttgart, Germany (STR) which DL does serve nonstop from ATL. It's the only direct USA-STR service.

By the way, GVA which has nonstop service from JFK on LX (and soon QR) and from EWR on CO can almost be considered as service to France. When you arrive at GVA airport which is located almost on the French border, you have the choice of entering either Switzerland or France and clearing the appropriate immigration/customs authorities. If you choose to enter France there's a fenced "customs road" about 2 km long that leads directly into France.

[Edited 2007-06-13 21:00:34]

User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3077 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7848 times:

As others have mentioned, France's business and economy is centered in Paris. And while tourism throughout France is high, it is also centered on Paris and the Mediterranean (which is served by DL, JFK-NCE). Compare this with Germany, Italy, Spain, or Britain where there are multiple business and tourist centers that can support such flights. Additional routes to NCE and LYS have been tried (by DL) and have failed. However, with that in mind, there have been rumors that DL and CO will add flights to secondary markets in France in the next few years as they expand their 757s-to-Europe strategy.

Quoting PDXBJV (Reply 6):
Is it Air France, or Delta that flies to Strasbourg from ATL? I know it's one of them but I'm not sure.

You're thinking of Stuttgart (STR), which which is served daily from ATL with DL.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7402 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7807 times:

Quoting LGAtoIND (Reply 10):
If I had to guess, I would think that either DL or CO start service to LYS with the 757.

I doubt.
AA used to fly the route and pulled out in the 90s.
Then DL tried also to operate the route early 2000 after SkyTeam was formed. Even with the help of AF and a codeshare, the route was not profitable and was closed.

AF studied recently (last year) to reopen a nonstop LYS-EWR flight with a "Dedicate" A319LR service, but the project was finally abandonned, after being declared unprofitable.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21504 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7785 times:

CO also serves GVA from EWR, and while not technically in France, it does provide easy access to the French Alps and surrounding areas.

Quoting PDXBJV (Reply 6):
Is it Air France, or Delta that flies to Strasbourg from ATL? I know it's one of them but I'm not sure.

You may be thinking of DL's flight from ATL to Stuttgart.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8397 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7766 times:

France can be reached by 757 so I think we will see more service using the 757. Maybe NW DTW-NCE or.... etc.

User currently offlineLGAtoIND From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 490 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7766 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 13):
Then DL tried also to operate the route early 2000 after SkyTeam was formed. Even with the help of AF and a codeshare, the route was not profitable and was closed.

Yes, but DL flew the route with a 767-300. I flew the route a few times, and from my experience loads were decent, not fabulous, but decent. It seems like it would be a good route from either JFK or EWR with a 757. Not only because of the O&D from NYC, but everyone in LYS could get 1 stop service to most cities in the U.S., unlike now where they have to usually double connect in CDG and then ATL/CVG/DFW.


User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 869 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7665 times:

The secondary cities in France are also much smaller and less global than those in Germany and England. While Frankfurt is the center of European banking, Dusseldorf and it's environs is huge.... MEGA, in fact, DUS has been long overlooked I think, and it deserves the service, but FRA is too close for LH to do anything significant with DUS, thus it's left in the dust. Milan and Rome are two very large cities. LYS is only at .5million, so it doesn't really compare with other cities that are getting direct service. However, those cities in England are technically closer for CO to serve and do share a common language aspect. Thus, I don't see the feasibility of expanding operations in France. My best bet would go to NCE, LYS, and SXB.


LH 442
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6440 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7614 times:

One reason that comes to mind about the lack of flights from the US to cities other than Paris, is that there is little demand from the French side to fly to the US. Since virtually all flights US to Europe are supported mainly by Europeans rather than USA boardings, this would be a large deficit to make up.

French tourism to the US is almost non-existant and the is very little if any VFR traffic. Paris can support flights to the US but not the other French cities. The French only vacation in former French possessions where French is spoken. ie: they travel to Quebec but not to Ontario.

I also agree it was a mis-leading title.


User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7760 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7574 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 3):
A very basic explanation are the realities of France.

France is very Paris centric when it comes to nearly everthing including transportation, economy and business.

France has been that way since at least the reign of Louis XIV, if not earlier. Very literally all roads lead to Paris.

As a result the secondary cities of France really are quite minor in comparison to other 2nd tier European cities... such as Frankfurt vs. Düsseldorf (or any other German city in the Rhein-Ruhr region) or London vs. Manchester.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32599 posts, RR: 72
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7574 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 18):
French tourism to the US is almost non-existant and the is very little if any VFR traffic. Paris can support flights to the US but not the other French cities. The French only vacation in former French possessions where French is spoken. ie: they travel to Quebec but not to Ontario.

That does generalize it a little too much. Miami, New York City, and Los Angeles are all very popular desitnations for the French, especially Miami. Though, you are right in that it isn't really spread out as much as others (i.e. Germans love to travel all over the US - Alaska, Florida, Arizona, Colorado, Michigan, etc.).



a.
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7513 times:

The only 3 French cities I could see getting flights from the U.S. (better read "from EWR or JFK") in 1-2 years would be MRS, LYS, MLH or BOD. And that service may not be even daily.
Same could be said for secondary Spanish cities like AGP, BIO, VLC, SCQ, PMI or even IBZ.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2176 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7478 times:

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 17):
LYS is only at .5million

Lyon urban area is somewhere between 1.2 and 1.5 million, with a catchment area (Rhone Alpes region, pretty much) of approx. 5 million. Marseille urban area between 1 and 1.2, with a larger catchemnt area (Avignon, Aix, Toulon, Nimes...), Lille also over 1 million, a huge catchment area of 4 million (Nord-Pas de Calais region) and more if we include its extension in Belgium, NCE also nears the million and catches some of Italy (and a lot of $$$ around due to Monaco).
Your number is true but only includes Lyon CITY (municipality), of which the territory is tiny. Such is true for all french cities when compared to foreign countries, their territory is usually very small and that deforms one's perception on the city's actual size.

Still, with 1.5 million, the second city of a country of 60 million people ranks as SMALL. Canada's # 2 (YUL) is over 3 million (urban area), Italy's # 2 urban area (Rome) over 3 million, Spain's # 2 (Barcelona) also over 3 million and so on... The UK urban areas might be a bit similar to France, but the UK's liguistic ties, its booming economy, and its geographical location (allowing the use of the smaller 757, AND being an island), and its LACK OF HIGH SPEED TRAINS makes for a totally different situation.

Add to that the efficiency of the TGV and you get the point.... France does not have cities outside PAR that are big enough to sustain US flights, and the TGV kills any hopes of tryouts... Furthermore, LYS is very close and very well linked by road and rail to GVA who has US flights... A few cities are left with no TGV (Toulouse, Nice...), and with no surprise, one of them (NCE) has the only flight to the US...

When it comes to touristic flights though, different situation: MRS, BDO, LYS, TLS, NTE all have TS to YUL for instance.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7422 times:

France is not like Germany with economic activity spread thru out the whole country. There are other large cities but they dotn have the business traffic that a MUC or DUS would have

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24796 posts, RR: 22
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7371 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 21):
The only 3 French cities I could see getting flights from the U.S. (better read "from EWR or JFK") in 1-2 years would be MRS, LYS, MLH or BOD.

Swissair did briefly operate BSL-EWR (BSL/MLH same airport) nonstsop 6 days a week with an A330-200 starting in mid-December 1998. I don't think it lasted more than a year, maybe less. BSL with a metropolitan area population of about 700,000, and the headquarters of several of the big Swiss pharmaceutical manufacturers (e.g. Novartis, Roche) is probably one of the largest cities in Europe that lacks nonstop service to the USA, although being only 1 hour by train or car from ZRH airport doesn't help it's chances of developing longhaul service, except some charters. It also has quite a bit of longhaul all-cargo service.


25 2travel2know : an A330 is probably too big for a BSL/MLH-NYC flight. BSL/MLH is CO/DL B757 material.
26 1stfl94 : All of the main French cities are easily accessible from Paris compared to equivalents in Germany and the UK for example. Also the catchment areas for
27 IADCA : The TGV station at CDG doesn't help matters for some of the other cities, either. In my experience, I found it easier to just take the TGV to CDG from
28 Burnsie28 : Really? GERMANY DL-767/777 FRA about 5x daily TXL MUC STR DUS CO: TXL FRA HAM CGN NW: DUS FRA (2x daily) Great Britain: DL: London Manchester Edinbur
29 SR 103 : I think he meant an airline within Skyteam based in Germany or Britain which both other alliances clearly have. That sentence is overkill. Star has L
30 Burnsie28 : All flights lead to London or Manchester from the US, connecting flights I wasn't counting.
31 Post contains images WunalaYann : Well, if I have to choose between market shares and profits... Regarding the subject of the thread, I do not see how the title would be misleading. W
32 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : ...I might even say "AF"-centric (to a certain extent)..AA couldn't get SJC-CDG to work and UA out of its fortress hub of SFO couldn't get a simple S
33 TYCOON : First off, I have no problem with this title. I immediately understood the point LH506 was raising. Secondly, there is a lot of ignorance on this site
34 FoxXray : Lyon was served by AA and DL back in 90s from JFK with 767... i think CO can make money with a 757 on the EWR-LYS route ! Lyon is becoming more and mo
35 Pizzaandplanes : Having AF on the skyteam alliance helps a lot. The connection through CDG to any France airport is so easy that it is not worth operating another tran
36 FoxXray : What are you smoking ?? little demand from France ?? oh yes everytime i go to the US i'm the only french onboard... your statement is totally wrong !
37 Post contains images Goldorak : you have really wrong information. Please, check your facts. totally agreed. You can also find a lot of French tourists in the national parks in AZ,
38 Bobnwa : For a country with a population of over 60 million, the French tourism market to the US is very small. But to be fair the French tourism market to mo
39 FoxXray : Here are the 8 biggest vacations destinations for french : Spain, Italy, Portugal, Tunisia, USA, UK, Canada and Morocco ! English are the biggest tra
40 Pmg1704 : I'm wondering if the answer has to do with the question, Why doesn't AF fly from more cities in France to North America?
41 2travel2know : CDG is AF hub, for AF to offer non-stop flights from other major French airports to The States (read EWR or JFK) and Canada (read YUL) would mean tha
42 Haggis79 : if you insist in flying on a US carrier, then yes.... but frankly, maybe you should consider there are other carriers as well... I guess you can alre
43 Mbm3 : I think we will see CO expand to secondary cities in France once they free up more 752s from domestic service next year, with BOD and NCE being tops o
44 Co777er : Simply stated: 3 of those are Skyteam Airlines. A connection at CDG on AF is their current solution.
45 PYP757 : You should not forget about the French state-of-the-art high-speed train network (TGVs), all connecting at CDG. A mere 50 mins to Lille, or 1h15 to Br
46 Post contains links Skyteam10001 : Actually Tourmag.com is saying in this article (sorry, only in French) http://www.tourmag.com/Air-France-a-...-chambardement-de-2008_a20334.html that
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Why Don't US Carriers Fly To The ME posted Fri Jul 13 2001 16:36:12 by Bokratensa
Do Any US Carriers Fly To Russia, And Africa? posted Sun Oct 22 2000 07:13:56 by ILUV767
Do The Laws Of Grammar Not Apply To Airlines? posted Mon Dec 31 2001 02:49:32 by 777236ER
Which US Airlines Fly To South Korea? posted Sun Aug 27 2000 09:58:18 by Syoon
Do DL/CO/NW Have To Merge? posted Wed Feb 7 2001 07:00:50 by Nwa747-400
Should DL/CO/NW/US Get Access To Heathrow? posted Fri May 12 2000 06:41:09 by VH-BZF
LHR Question - Why Do BA Fly To MIA From Terminal3 posted Mon Dec 31 2001 09:08:50 by LGW
Why Do You Like To Fly? posted Thu Oct 18 2001 16:05:17 by Rwy31R
Why Do BA Not Fly LHR-DUB? posted Tue Dec 26 2000 17:17:34 by GKirk
What Cities Do BA Fly To In US posted Sat Dec 9 2000 11:46:37 by KLMBlue
Why Do OS Not Fly To Hkg? posted Wed Sep 4 2002 11:47:28 by MilesDependent
Why Do U.S. Carriers Not Fly To Dubai? posted Mon Oct 11 1999 15:57:57 by Cody
Is NW/DL's Check-In Similar To CO's? posted Mon Jun 22 2009 02:41:02 by LASoctoberB6
Why Does Skyeurope Not Fly To Germany? posted Thu Apr 17 2008 02:15:46 by Beaucaire
US Might Not Fly To China If Delta Moves Into Its posted Wed Nov 7 2007 02:18:30 by Justapassenger
Why Aer Lingus Does Not Fly To TLV posted Mon Aug 20 2007 12:14:56 by Maxsa
Why Doesnt AI Fly To More European Destinations posted Tue Jul 4 2006 11:09:31 by Flyer88