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B757: NYC-N.E. Brazil  
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4917 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2004 times:

Could a B757 do NYC-North East Brazil? There has been some talk about the potential of North East Brazil-US service, and I have read NYC as a possible destination. To me CO to EWR on a B757 would be ideal, but I wondered if it was actually possible?


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14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32571 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1993 times:

It can reach some cities, but not the ones that have potential in the short term: Brasillia, Recife, and Salvador.


a.
User currently offlinePizzaandplanes From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1766 times:

Yes, EWR-Lima is operated with a 757. Therefore, most cities in northern Brazil can be operated with a 757 from NYC. I really don't think any city in northern Brazil can fill 200 seats a day to NYC. After the crash and controversy with the private jet and Brazilian 737, I don't think that Brazil ATC wants more US planes on their soil.

User currently offlineAAL0616 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 272 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1751 times:

Technically feasible, ecomomically questionable and politically impossible, without rights changes from Brazil.

Pending approval, which may or may not happen, AAL will begin flying 757 (winglet-equipped) equipment from MIA to Northeast Brazil later this year and next.


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1732 times:

Quoting Pizzaandplanes (Reply 2):
Therefore, most cities in northern Brazil can be operated with a 757 from NYC

The furthest into Brazil from NYC on a 757 would be Manaus or Belem. In saying so neither one is exactly a hotbed of travel that Americans are known to frequent. Europeans know of these areas rather well, hence the amount of charter traffic to Manaus and Belem. European, Brazilian, and charter airlines have flown to and from Europe to North Eastern Brazil for a number of years.

The following resorts in North-Eastern Brazil are out side of the range of the 757-200 from the NYC area.

Fernando de Noronha ~ 4025
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_de_noronha

Fortaleza ~ 3783
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortaleza

Maceio ~ 4216
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maceio

Recife ~ 4168
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recife

Salvador ~ 4327
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador%2C_Bahia

-JD


User currently offlineAAL0616 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 272 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1697 times:

Quoting Pizzaandplanes (Reply 2):
Yes, EWR-Lima is operated with a 757. Therefore, most cities in northern Brazil can be operated with a 757 from NYC. I really don't think any city in northern Brazil can fill 200 seats a day to NYC. After the crash and controversy with the private jet and Brazilian 737, I don't think that Brazil ATC wants more US planes on their soil.

Are you blaming the American pilots? Whatever the merits of the case, mistakes the pilots may have made, flaws or gaps in Brazilian ATC, and Brazilian ego, saying Brazil ATC does not want more US planes on their soil is a preposterous and offensive comment.

I am old enough to remember or have been told by those who were there that in World War II, a lot of US planes were on Brazilian soil, as allies, partners, protectors and friends of Brazil. ATC bases in the Northeast on the Miami-India run across from Natal to Ascension Island to Africa. US Navy blimps hunting Nazi subs that threatened Brazilian shipping and commerce. Pan Am and her partner Panair do Brasil, for years the pioneers of Brazilian aviation alongside other great Brazilian airmen and companies. American instructors training the infant Brazilian Air Force. Friends of my Pan Am relatives who worked for Varig visiting Miami from Rio were such close friends who helped influence my interest in aviation. There is such an historically close relationship between is that should never be broken.

And today? Are you saying that American, Continental, Delta or United are persona-non-gratia? Are you saying all the great Brazilian customers riding in F and C on silverbirds to MIA should stop cold turkey?

Should American withdraw their applications to serve the Northeastern cities from MIA and opening up new legs of commerce to build greater prosperity in Northeast Brazil, who surely want and deserve the service?

Also, FlyGuy is totally correct regarding the technical reasons for JFK/EWR being out of reach for all but several points even though EWR-LIM can be flown. Even from MIA, the plan if approved by Brazilian authorities will be for the winglet 757 aircraft preferably due to their better operating characteristics.

Please accept my comments in the context which they are intended, which is the utmost respect, however, I was a bit offended as you can tell and do feel somewhat passionately about the subject, as an American with many friends in Brazil and good feelings toward Brazil.

[Edited 2007-06-16 07:12:29]

[Edited 2007-06-16 07:13:40]

User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1684 times:

Quoting Pizzaandplanes (Reply 2):
After the crash and controversy with the private jet and Brazilian 737, I don't think that Brazil ATC wants more US planes on their soil.

Brazilians rely very heavily on the American products be it airlines, be it cars, be it imports for its daily life.

-JD


User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1606 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 6):
Brazilians rely very heavily on the American products be it airlines, be it cars, be it imports for its daily life.

I wouldn't rule out China surpassing this number in the next decade, since they are currently #2!!!

Anyways, Brazil is and will be a very americanized country. In fact, I don't really know any other country in the Americas, excluding Canada & some Caribbean Islands, that have more similarities with the USA than Brazil.

Thus for saying that Americans are "persona non grata" is just silly!!!


User currently offlineBSBIsland From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 376 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1577 times:

Quoting Pizzaandplanes (Reply 2):
After the crash and controversy with the private jet and Brazilian 737, I don't think that Brazil ATC wants more US planes on their soil.

With or without this crash I dont think the situation would be that different in this case.

I would say such routes don´t exist simply because as the bilateral restricts frequencies, it is less risky and seems to be more profitable for airlines to use their limited frequencies to GRU and GIG, and as stated above, a 757 wouldn´t have the range to fly from NYC to the main destinations in NE Brazil such as SSA or REC. But I do believe in the next years (if bilateral agreement is revised) we could see this market developing, how already happens with Europe.

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 7):
Anyways, Brazil is and will be a very americanized country. In fact, I don't really know any other country in the Americas, excluding Canada & some Caribbean Islands, that have more similarities with the USA than Brazil.

I always had the impression that other Latin american countries were way more "americanized" than Brazil, but thats another story.


User currently offlineDellatorre From Brazil, joined May 2000, 1088 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1551 times:

Quoting Pizzaandplanes (Reply 2):
After the crash and controversy with the private jet and Brazilian 737, I don't think that Brazil ATC wants more US planes on their soil.

What does this got to do with what we are discussing here? That's a pretty shallow comment....

Neo


User currently offlineAAL0616 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 272 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1523 times:

Quoting BSBIsland (Reply 8):
would say such routes don´t exist simply because as the bilateral restricts frequencies, it is less risky and seems to be more profitable for airlines to use their limited frequencies to GRU and GIG, and as stated above, a 757 wouldn´t have the range to fly from NYC to the main destinations in NE Brazil such as SSA or REC. But I do believe in the next years (if bilateral agreement is revised) we could see this market developing, how already happens with Europe.

Yes.

Service north and south for the Northeast will develop gradually and the bilateral is not the way it is simply because anyone wants to restrict growth and prosperity. The authorities do want to see profitable services and naturally wish to have some balance if possible between national carriers, which is only reasonable and appropriate.

That said, if AAL is the only one seeking frequencies between MIA and the Northeast, or TAM is the only one seeking frequencies between MIA and the interior, for example, each should be given fair and due consideration in a timely manner if their application makes sense. TAM is certainly continuing to fly the interior route with their 320 every day and will expand all MIA services as soon as they can do so given equipment coming on line and official approvals.

NYC service to the Northeast is somewhat more problematic and distant, as has been accurately stated.

One more thing about Brazil ATC. Yes, there was one horrible recent incident. It did not involve a US scheduled air carrier. Please understand that while there are definitely gaps in the system that we are all aware of, and Brazil has worked closely with all concerned to fix, everyone takes their time to pay close attention to their position and course over Brazilian or adjacent airspace. No one wants to risk their life not paying attention to instructions or oncoming traffic. There are far more difficult places to operate high speed wide or narrow body aircraft than Brazil, and right now the demand for GRU is tremendous, hence, all the USA frequencies that currently exist.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11406 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 1470 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

The big problem to develop a new route to the northeast is the lack of a Hub in any of the cities. There is market for a flight, but local entrepreneurs need to understand that a local hub, connecting not only but at least Sao Luiz, Teresina, Fortaleza, Natal, Recife, Juazeiro do Norte, Mossoro, Joao Pessoa, Salvador, Maceio, Aracaju, Porto Seguro, Ilheus, Petrolina... there isn't such airport nowadays in Northeast, able to connect mostly of them at the same range of time which reduces the atractivity of a flight to US. If REC or SSA keep these flights, i'm sure any US airline with an agreement with the Hub operator could fly a very profitable daily flight with 1 763 (one of the legs daylight).

Quoting AAL0616 (Reply 10):
There are far more difficult places to operate high speed wide or narrow body aircraft than Brazil, and right now the demand for GRU is tremendous, hence, all the USA frequencies that currently exist.

For the same reason above, there are no hubs or points of connection in Northeast, South, North or West-Center of Brazil. Although Business is focused in São Paulo, it's only 34% of Brazilian GDP which means there are 66% (36% if we don't consider Rio, Belo Horizonte, Porto Alegre and their respective states). All the other 150 million Brazilians connects at GRU. Demand will remain huge and tremendous up to the time it's possible to run flights from/to other destinations, and connect them.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineTR763 From Brazil, joined Mar 2001, 774 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1427 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
All the other 150 million Brazilians connects at GRU.

Really? I thought that Gol and Tam were investing a lot in making GIG a domestic hub and they were having success with that. This means that people are connecting in GIG too, not as much as in GRU, but I imagine that the number is growing, specially after the announcements made by AF and DL of increasing capacity in Rio.
Things seems to be changing.  Smile

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 11):
Demand will remain huge and tremendous up to the time it's possible to run flights from/to other destinations, and connect them.

Lipe,
reading your post seems that GRU loose all of its demand if connections were made thru somewhere else.
You said that the SP state has 34% of the Brazilian GDP. For a country with 26 states + DF, i believe that 34% is a very significant number.
So, if we had the so discussed decentralization of flights, of course, there would be less flights to GRU, but this airport would still be able to receive lucrative int´l flights.
I´m not any expert in markets and business, but for me, seems to be obvious that the place that generates more business and more money, will generate more demand too. Not to say about the people that live in SP that travel for leisure too.
Don´t be too harsh when talking about GRU an SP  Wink  Wink

As things are going, with TP serving almost all the big markets of Brazil, AF, DL, UA increasing GIG and the interest of Americans and Europeans in Northeast, I believe that in a near future, connections in GRU will thankfully become part of the past.
I´d love to see SSA, REC or FOR filled with American carriers.

Rgs!
TR763



Transbrasil
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11406 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1384 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting TR763 (Reply 12):
Really? I thought that Gol and Tam were investing a lot in making GIG a domestic hub and they were having success with that. This means that people are connecting in GIG too, not as much as in GRU, but I imagine that the number is growing, specially after the announcements made by AF and DL of increasing capacity in Rio.
Things seems to be changing.

Agree TR763, but look for the available connections thru GIG: CDG, ATL, LAD, MAD, LIS, OPO, EZE, SCL, MIA. TAM keep only three international flights out of GIG, Varig now keep 4, but talking about connectivity, only Tam 2 night flights are good for connections.
Comparing with GRU and the huge base of direct services: AMS, LHR, MXP, LIM, BOG, CCS, MEX, YYZ, IAH, DFW, ORD, JFK, MIA (several times more options), MUC, FRA (effective), DXB (very soon), JNB, ASU, VVI... we are talking about a very huge advantage ! GRU keep with 3.2x more pax than GIG in international, and remember, CGH is able to increase the demand from all the south and places without link to GIG (JOI, NVT, CXJ, LDB, PFB, RAO, SJP, UDI, GYN, CGB, CGR.. funny but all places without international link closer) despite GIG is good for notheast, but Northeast keep services to Europe (to which GIG is stronger). Not to mention important markets like MAO, only connected non-stop to BSB and GRU.

Yes, the number of connections in GIG is growing, and i hope to see even more, but please review my comments and see what do you think about. In resume, GRU connects all the Brazil without international link to US and Europe, and GIG is able to connect CNF, VIX and BSB (but shared with GRU).

Quoting TR763 (Reply 12):
So, if we had the so discussed decentralization of flights, of course, there would be less flights to GRU, but this airport would still be able to receive lucrative int´l flights.
I´m not any expert in markets and business, but for me, seems to be obvious that the place that generates more business and more money, will generate more demand too. Not to say about the people that live in SP that travel for leisure too.
Don´t be too harsh when talking about GRU an SP

I try not to be too harsh, and if it seems, i'm sorry, it's not my focus.

I only tried to say that more flights to Northeast, North, BSB, CNF and even GIG will just create another points of demand because nowadays many people avoid international flights because it's extremelly long and exaustive.

Of course at the time you create more flights, you create space for reducing fares in those already operated in order to attract more customers. In other words, you can fill more of the plane with O&D in São Paulo while people from other states can fill some flights closer of them.

Quoting TR763 (Reply 12):
I´d love to see SSA, REC or FOR filled with American carriers.

Also NAT, BEL, BSB and CNF !

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3678 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1375 times:

Quoting AAL0616 (Reply 5):
Are you blaming the American pilots? Whatever the merits of the case, mistakes the pilots may have made, flaws or gaps in Brazilian ATC, and Brazilian ego, saying Brazil ATC does not want more US planes on their soil is a preposterous and offensive comment.

I am old enough to remember or have been told by those who were there that in World War II, a lot of US planes were on Brazilian soil, as allies, partners, protectors and friends of Brazil. ATC bases in the Northeast on the Miami-India run across from Natal to Ascension Island to Africa. US Navy blimps hunting Nazi subs that threatened Brazilian shipping and commerce. Pan Am and her partner Panair do Brasil, for years the pioneers of Brazilian aviation alongside other great Brazilian airmen and companies. American instructors training the infant Brazilian Air Force. Friends of my Pan Am relatives who worked for Varig visiting Miami from Rio were such close friends who helped influence my interest in aviation. There is such an historically close relationship between is that should never be broken.

And today? Are you saying that American, Continental, Delta or United are persona-non-gratia? Are you saying all the great Brazilian customers riding in F and C on silverbirds to MIA should stop cold turkey?

Should American withdraw their applications to serve the Northeastern cities from MIA and opening up new legs of commerce to build greater prosperity in Northeast Brazil, who surely want and deserve the service?

Also, FlyGuy is totally correct regarding the technical reasons for JFK/EWR being out of reach for all but several points even though EWR-LIM can be flown. Even from MIA, the plan if approved by Brazilian authorities will be for the winglet 757 aircraft preferably due to their better operating characteristics.

Please accept my comments in the context which they are intended, which is the utmost respect, however, I was a bit offended as you can tell and do feel somewhat passionately about the subject, as an American with many friends in Brazil and good feelings toward Brazil.

Thank you! Very good post! Congratulations on the great response!


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