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Is The B. 777's Width Useless?  
User currently offlineKnightsofmalta From Malta, joined Nov 2005, 1756 posts, RR: 18
Posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7350 times:

Hello everyone

First of all, this is not intended as an A. vs B. thread so whatever happens, it ain't my fault. Anyway, I was just looking at cabin pics of the B. 777 and noticed that the new Delta Elite Business class product only has two-two-two seating like most airlines have on the A. 330/A. 340. And SQ's B. 777 even only have one-two-one in Business class. But in actual fact the fuselage would be wide enough to offer two-three-two seating in C-class, as many airlines do on the B. 777. Of course I'm aware of the fact that it's not very appealing for the C-class passenger to have to sit squeezed in between two others, which is why airlines like DL or SQ have removed seats out of every row in C-Class. But then what was the point of building or acquiring such a wide aircraft anyway if the space is wasted up front?

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineQatarA340 From Qatar, joined May 2006, 1808 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7332 times:

Quoting Knightsofmalta (Thread starter):
Hello everyone

First of all, this is not intended as an A. vs B. thread so whatever happens, it ain't my fault. Anyway, I was just looking at cabin pics of the B. 777 and noticed that the new Delta Elite Business class product only has two-two-two seating like most airlines have on the A. 330/A. 340. And SQ's B. 777 even only have one-two-one in Business class. But in actual fact the fuselage would be wide enough to offer two-three-two seating in C-class, as many airlines do on the B. 777. Of course I'm aware of the fact that it's not very appealing for the C-class passenger to have to sit squeezed in between two others, which is why airlines like DL or SQ have removed seats out of every row in C-Class. But then what was the point of building or acquiring such a wide aircraft anyway if the space is wasted up front?

I have also wondered the same thing.... But, In fact the 777 offers more cargo volume than the A330's. Plus, some carriers like EK use a 10 abreast config. for its Y passengers, while others use 9 abreast for Y passengers, whcih is more than the 8 abreast used for the A330 for the vast majority of airliners. Also, 2+3+2 for J pax is not that bad and some premium carriers have that configurations.

Forgive me if Im wrong, but isnt the Delta J layout the same as VS layout? (with Diagonal seating) as opposed to traditional foreward seating? If its the case, then certainly there is not a waste of space there.

Cheers...



لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
User currently offlineBBADXB From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7294 times:

I certainly do not consider the 777 cabin width as a waste. I think that from a customer's point of view, it is an added plus to have such a roomy cabin. Cargo-wise, there's extra capacity, and from the crew's point of view, more space to fit in cabin bags and move around during services, etc..

The Airbus A340-500 (as well as the older A340 and A330), should have been designed to the same specifications as the 777 in my humble and sincere opinion.

[Yes, I am a die-hard hard-core Boeing fan when it comes to longhaul aircraft - I recognise my bias - but then again, I prefer the A32S to the 737]

Just my US$0.02 worth,

BBADXB


User currently offlineTrekster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7238 times:

Well, of course SQ's Business class is only 1 2 1 as the seats are kinda big.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ping



BA have 2 4 2 on there business class and the cabin looks very spacious especially with the new Overhead bin design on the 777 which looks very smooth and flows well.

Not all airlines will have the same configuration, they will go with what ever looks best and works best for them. If DL think there config is good.

The airline will of course have investigated what would be good, yes they would make more money if they added an extra set of seats, but would it impact on the customer???

Does anyone have a picture of the new Delta seat at all??


User currently offlineHanginOut From Austria, joined May 2005, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6909 times:

Quoting Trekster (Reply 3):
Does anyone have a picture of the new Delta seat at all??

Hi Trekster

Here is a link to Delta's website with pictures of Delta's new biz class. Note that it is very similar to what Air Canada's new biz class is like (based on Virgin Atlantic's biz class with the herringbone seating arrangement).

http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10405

HanginOut



Dreaming of the day I can work for an airline
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6879 times:

Quoting Knightsofmalta (Thread starter):
But then what was the point of building or acquiring such a wide aircraft anyway if the space is wasted up front?

I guess you weren't around for the 747s with 2x2x2 Business Lounger seats. No one was complaining about all that wasted space in those puppies.  Wink



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAirSpare From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 589 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6807 times:

The T7 is a selling point for customers, we like the cabin. I pay for it because I like it. Which is why I think this will be a Y3 width, and there will never be an 787-10, 11, 12, 13 or X. (Exageration!)

But I realy don't think there will be a -10. (I have a few side bets that there won't be)I pay for the T7 class cabins, happily~

787 stretches as an a.nutter put it, will be a Sardineliner, the nose would be landing as the galley in the back takes off...



Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
User currently offlineTrekster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6693 times:

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 4):

Thanks

Hence there arrangment in the new cabin then.

Ta for that


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8883 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6553 times:

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 1):
In fact the 777 offers more cargo volume than the A330's

The containers and pallets on the 777 are interchangeable with the 330, the 772 and 333 have about the same palletised capability, each with 18 LD3 in the forward hold, and 14 LD3s in the aft hold, the fuselage width does not help with the hold space available for pallets or containers on the 777.

The increased volume on the 773 comes from its length, not width, the additional length gives it 24 LD3s forward, and 20 LD3s aft.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24917 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5563 times:

Quoting Knightsofmalta (Thread starter):
was just looking at cabin pics of the B. 777 and noticed that the new Delta Elite Business class product only has two-two-two seating like most airlines have on the A. 330/A. 340.

CO is also 2-2-2 on their 777s. AC's new 777s are basically 1-2-1 with their angled flat-bed product.

Several carriers even had 2-2-2 in busines class on 747s which are slightly wider than 777s. That includes Pan Am during their latter few years of existence, and also TWA. When PA first introduced their business class (Clipper Class) service on 747s it was 2-4-2.


User currently offlineHanginOut From Austria, joined May 2005, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4555 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Quoting Knightsofmalta (Thread starter):
was just looking at cabin pics of the B. 777 and noticed that the new Delta Elite Business class product only has two-two-two seating like most airlines have on the A. 330/A. 340.

CO is also 2-2-2 on their 777s. AC's new 777s are basically 1-2-1 with their angled flat-bed product.

Several carriers even had 2-2-2 in busines class on 747s which are slightly wider than 777s. That includes Pan Am during their latter few years of existence, and also TWA. When PA first introduced their business class (Clipper Class) service on 747s it was 2-4-2.

Delta is getting new biz seats which are herringbone lay flat seats (see link in reply 4) and will have the same layout as Air Canada (1-2-1) on the 777s.



Dreaming of the day I can work for an airline
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4362 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
When PA first introduced their business class (Clipper Class) service on 747s it was 2-4-2.

Just to clarify, Clipper Class initially was 3x4x3:

Quoting http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B02E3D61438F937A15756C0A967948260&sec=travel&pagewanted=all:

Pan Am has begun pulling out the old 10-abreast seats in its clipper class (also between first class and economy in price) and replacing them with eight-abreast seats grouped two by two. These have more hip- and legroom than Pan Am's current economy-class seats. By this summer the airline plans to have the new clipper seating on almost all its trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific flights.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4627 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4295 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Just to clarify, Clipper Class initially was 3x4x3:

Superb article link - thanks for that!

So it wasn't until 1981 that PA changed the seating... what was the advantage of it initally then? Leg room? ... Sorry to be so off topic!



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20394 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4213 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 12):
So it wasn't until 1981 that PA changed the seating... what was the advantage of it initally then? Leg room?

It was to give full fare flyers recognition with a few frills like upgraded meals, etc. We did a whole thread of back and forth on who had the "first" business class a while back. It was an entertaining thread if you're interested, and this is a snippet from an article from the New York Times I purchased while doing some research for it:

"It is not first class, but it is that economy-class section of the aircraft immediately behind first class. Where there is a business class, the bargain passengers are placed to the rear. The airlines advertise that when possible, business-class travelers in the same row will have an empty seat between them, but more often than the ads indicate, it is not possible.

The basic idea, however, is to separate bargain passengers from full-fare travelers on those flights that usually carry a lot of both. Many business travelers must pay full economy fare because their trips are arranged on short notice or because they cannot stay away long enough to qualify for restricted bargains. The airlines consider it bad business for a traveler who has paid $460 to discover that he is seated next to someone who has paid only $230 and that they will both get the same service. And to add to a business traveler's ire, the passenger in the next seat might be a cantankerous child.

In business class in contrast to the remainder of the economy section, the headsets for stereo and movies (when offered) are usually free. So are cocktails and wines, although British Airways charges for champagne. The food is generally better and the choice of entrees broader. There are usually separate check-in facilities at the airport and sometimes the use of special lounges to await departure."


The thread was: The First "Business Class"? (by AeroWesty May 20 2006 in Civil Aviation)



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineAA777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2544 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3578 times:
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Its pleny wide- look at BA- they use 2-4-2 in J class. (The same as Any A330/340 in Y) And I've flown on their long haul J class product, and its wonderfully comfortable and quite luxurious.

I guess it all depends on what the airline wants their J class to be. And thats probably a huge advantage for the 777, as there are so many layouts available for all parts of the the cabin...

-AA777


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3360 times:

The 777 width is not useless. It allows it to have a flat floor thought the entire length of the cabin, unlike its competition.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24917 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3292 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
When PA first introduced their business class (Clipper Class) service on 747s it was 2-4-2.

Just to clarify, Clipper Class initially was 3x4x3:

Thanks for that clarification. I was only thinking of the service after PA introduced dedicated Clipper Class seating different from Y class. My first flight in Clipper Class with the 2-4-2 cabin was on a 747SP HKG-SFO in the late 1970s soon after PA began the first nonstop service on that route.

If not mistaken, KL was the first carrier to introduce a segregated cabin for passengers paying the full economy class fare. Like PA, on 747s it also used standard 3-4-3 economy seats, curtained off from the rest of Y class and with some upgraded service features. They called it "FFF" for "Full Fare Facilities". That's covered in one of the replies in the other thread with the link in Reply 13.

I'm also reminded of one of BA's earlier 747 longhaul business class products for a few years in the 1980s called Super Club. It used several rows of convertible seats that could be changed from 3-3-3 economy class (one less seat across than the rest of Y class further back which had the standard 3-4-3 layout) to 2-2-2 business class which they called Super Club then. Although they were very wide when converted to the 2-2-2 layout and had somewhat more pitch than the standard Y seats further back, they weren't especially comfortable. I think they introduced that product in an effort to compete with PA and TW who by then probably had gone to their 2-2-2 layout in Clipper/Ambassador Class but with standard domestic-type First Class seats that were much better than the BA convertible seats.


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