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"New A310" For Business Class-only Flights  
User currently offlineJerseyFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 634 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10736 times:

A number of boutique airlines are now flying transatlantic between secondary airports in a business class - only configuration. It is likely that BA and VS (with maybe US and continental European majors to follow?) will do likewise. Thier tactic will be to take advantage of the new open skies agreement by seeking to cream off their competitors' premium traffic from their hub airports with minimum investment in new aircraft and infrastructure.

The boutique carriers are using old 757s and 767s. BA has hinted at using its current but slated-for-replacement 757 and 767 fleets. VS may use its newly ordered 789s - which are substantially larger.

The requirement here is for a small wide-bodied long haul aircraft - like a A310 300 / 767 200ER - that can fit 50+ business class seats. A narrowbody is seriously too narrow for today's premium seats. No one is making such aircraft any more.

Will we see the revival of short-body long haul widebodies to meet this demand, smaller than the 758, maybe like the Airbus proposal for an A330 500 floated a few years ago?

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30553 posts, RR: 84
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10599 times:
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Quoting JerseyFlyer (Thread starter):
A narrowbody is seriously too narrow for today's premium seats. No one is making such aircraft any more.

I don't believe that is the case. The 737-700ER and A319CJ should both be able to take up to 50 of any current or Business Class seat and haul it across the Atlantic.


User currently offlineCarledwards From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10568 times:

very well researched and a good thread, but I dont see any old A310's being brought back from the boneyards to do this! As you said though maybe a replacement will come out in the next decade, however as Stitch said the narrow body BBJ's currently fulfill this niche. I think BA 767's are now so old I would be very surprised if anyone would want to go on them in a premium service configuration within a few years. They are too noisy in the cabin to begin with compared to the latest jets.

However I do think dedicated premium class jets is the way forward for the big carriers to suceed, coupled with the ever growing 'low cost' services.



Directoria
User currently offlineAA1818 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Feb 2006, 3429 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10540 times:

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Thread starter):
The requirement here is for a small wide-bodied long haul aircraft - like a A310 300 / 767 200ER

I think the 788 (783) should have this covered. As far as I can see, permium airlines seem to ike flying the 737/ A320 sized a/c and 767 sized aircraft. Boeing will have the larger segment all to themselves with the 788 if Airbus continues to go after the 777 as opposed to the 767/787.

AA1818



“The moment you doubt whether you can fly, you cease for ever to be able to do it.” J.M. Barrie (Peter Pan)
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8661 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10526 times:

Quoting Carledwards (Reply 2):
think BA 767's are now so old I would be very surprised if anyone would want to go on them in a premium service configuration within a few years.

Maxjet 762ER's are older. The BA birds have a longer life in them.

Hunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineChiguire From Venezuela, joined Sep 2004, 2003 posts, RR: 16
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 10422 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
The 737-700ER and A319CJ should both be able to take up to 50 of any current or Business Class seat and haul it across the Atlantic.

Please don't forget that the load capacity and the range is very limited on these aircraft. At the moment you want to start e.g. an NYC-MIL you will face serious baggage problems. The maximum allowed baggage un GJ service MXP-JFK was 15Kg INCLUDING hand luggage.
A 757 is much better for such longer routes. Apart of that you will never be able to perform a LON-LAX. The 767 is the best option.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30553 posts, RR: 84
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 10278 times:
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Quoting Chiguire (Reply 5):
Please don't forget that the load capacity and the range is very limited on these aircraft.

True, but I am thinking of Eastern North America to Western Europe. Missions around 3500nm where these planes do not need all their auxiliary fuel tanks.


User currently offlineN770WD From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 10216 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 4):
Maxjet 762ER's are older. The BA birds have a longer life in them.

Not necessarily. Several of BA's B763ERs were delivered 1989-1990 vs. 1986-1988 for MAXjet's ERs. What matters isn't year of manufacture but hours and cycles. All but one of the MAXjet fleet are low-cycle aircraft.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Thread starter):
Will we see the revival of short-body long haul widebodies to meet this demand, smaller than the 758, maybe like the Airbus proposal for an A330 500 floated a few years ago?

The A310 is too limited in fuel capacity to be useful. The B767-200ERs in a MAXjet configuration are capable of 14 hour hauls, or shorter hauls with a full passenger and cargo payload. Generally speaking the price-focused all Business carriers (Silverjet, MAXjet) need the seating capacity and cargo of the B767 while the product-focused carriers (Eos, former Mima operation) need smaller seating counts and lower trip costs to be viable.

The A330-200 can do any mission the B767-200ER can do in premium configurations, but needs another 10% on load for equal margins. The A319LR is a great airplane for premium eastern-US to Europe but as noted it has baggage and weight limitations.


User currently offlineBoeing74741R From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2007, 1152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8877 times:

It will be interesting to see what the likes of VS do in open-skies. As for the 789s part of the reason for ordering them is to replace A343s and take over current A343 routes where the A346 and B744 is too big to be used at the destination airport, as well as growth.

User currently offlineIlikeflight From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8235 times:

any chance of some of these airlines rescuing the low time L10's or L15's for the Biz class only flights


Think Different
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24813 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8141 times:

Quoting Ilikeflight (Reply 9):
any chance of some of these airlines rescuing the low time L10's or L15's for the Biz class only flights

Not a chance. Very few still airworthy and there would likely be major problems with spare parts. And costs would be uncompetitive with newer aircraft that only require 2 flight crew vs. 3 on the L1011.


User currently offlineTransIsland From Bahamas, joined Mar 2004, 2042 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6959 times:

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Thread starter):
No one is making such aircraft any more.

Tell the people in Seattle to stop building 737s immediately!

Quoting N770WD (Reply 7):
he A310 is too limited in fuel capacity to be useful.

I do remember flying A310s trans-Atlantic (JFK-TXL) in regular pax configuration.



I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
User currently offlineBimmerkid19 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 6851 times:

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 11):
do remember flying A310s trans-Atlantic (JFK-TXL) in regular pax configuration.



Quoting TransIsland (Reply 11):
do remember flying A310s trans-Atlantic (JFK-TXL) in regular pax configuration.

Are you referring to Czech Airlines? because they still fly A310´s YYZ - PRG and NYC - PRG


User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4775 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6528 times:

I recall sneering remarks when I first broached the idea of a boutique airline here. But now ANA is developing the concept with a 24-seat Club ANA BJ section, plus another 24-seat Economy BJ - equivalent to long-haul Premium Economy class.

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Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
True, but I am thinking of Eastern North America to Western Europe. Missions around 3500nm where these planes do not need all their auxiliary fuel tanks.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ration-737-700er-flies-in-ana.html

I believe the 737ER would be well suited for those routes. I don't think these all-premium class flights typically carry a lot of baggage and cargo, especially given the 48-passenger count?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...37-700er-ahead-of-delivery-to.html

But I do wish ANA would radically reduce the size of the titles on the sides of its BJ aircraft.

[Edited 2007-06-17 04:28:00]


"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineIrobertson From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 601 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6489 times:

Quoting N770WD (Reply 7):
The A310 is too limited in fuel capacity to be useful.

Pardon? Besides CSA, there's also the Canforce 310 and Air Transat. According to the A.net website, the A310-300 can do 5170nm, well within range of Eastern US to Western EU, baggage included. Its essentially as good as the 762ER. Even the A300-600R has 4000nm range, versus the 757-200 which tops out between 3700-3900, depending on the powerplant.

I think there is a slow but steady trend in converting some of these second and third hand widebodies into Biz-class carriers, less baggage and weight because of less people, probably less fuel then too. Its just that so far, we've only see 762ERs and 752s being used for this purpose. While there aren't a whole lot of A306s left in passenger service (more and more are becoming freighters), there's still a fair number of A313s that could fit the bill. Problem is, no one is really building a replacement for the 762 or the 310, and that brings us back to your original posting.

There's a fair number of aircraft that aren't being properly replaced. The BAe 146 jumps to mind... I don't think the E170 and the 318 are proper replacements. Still not STOL enough. We also don't have a narrowbody Airbus with the range and capacity of the 752 or the 739ER. Where's that long range 321? That might potentially work for a biz-class config on transatlantic runs...


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24813 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 6472 times:

Quoting Bimmerkid19 (Reply 12):
Quoting TransIsland (Reply 11):
do remember flying A310s trans-Atlantic (JFK-TXL) in regular pax configuration.

Are you referring to Czech Airlines? because they still fly A310´s YYZ - PRG and NYC - PRG

I'm guessing he's referring to Pan Am or DL after DL acquired most of PA's Europe routes (except LHR). I believe they both operated the A310 JFK-TXL in the late 1980s or early 1990s, before DL dropped the route (reinstated a couple of years ago using the 763).


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6291 times:

Quoting AA1818 (Reply 3):
I think the 788 (783) should have this covered.

The 788 would absolutely have this covered and be able to fly west coast USA to germany without issue.

It's not as big as people think. Boeing has a 3-class config including pods in F (8) and 42J and the plane only fits 185 pax. Doing an all 1-2-1 configuration for J would hold 100 seats max. Maybe split it as J and Y++, with 1-2-1J and 2-3-2 Y++ seating, and you could do 50J and 75Y++. Wonder how that business model works...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineTransIsland From Bahamas, joined Mar 2004, 2042 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4246 times:

Quoting Bimmerkid19 (Reply 12):
Are you referring to Czech Airlines?

No  Wink

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
I'm guessing he's referring to Pan Am

Spot on!


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I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4177 times:

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Thread starter):
boutique airlines are now flying transatlantic between secondary airports in a business class

It is not just boutique airlines or secondary airports. Example: KLM 664 IAH to AMS (return flt 663, AMS to IAH) (which is actually run by PrivatAir for KLM, and does not garner CO, but the NW website lists no such restriction), which is a biz class only 737, ORBITZ seat map lists 11 rows. As a side note, the flight from Houston is 9hrs 40 min, lv at 1945 arr 1225.

I only mention this as example of a "non" boutique airline at a "major" hub. All that being said, this route has been around a while. With BA talking about entering into an all biz plane for some flights, this goes to show the market exists.



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4060 times:

Why not taking a 787 or A350 and install a large premium and a relatively small economy section? You can always sell a couple of economy seats, too, often even for a high price since. Keep in mind, we can read every day at A.net the travelling public wants to fly point to point. This is roughly what Boeing aimed for when they started the 787 programme.

Cheers

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineN770WD From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3818 times:

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 14):
Pardon? Besides CSA, there's also the Canforce 310 and Air Transat. According to the A.net website, the A310-300 can do 5170nm, well within range of Eastern US to Western EU, baggage included. Its essentially as good as the 762ER. Even the A300-600R has 4000nm range, versus the 757-200 which tops out between 3700-3900, depending on the powerplant.

No disagreement about eastern US. But for example the Air Transat A313s have 16K gallons of fuel capacity, vs. 20K or 25K for the B767-200ER. That makes the difference between an eastern US only aircraft and one capable of Europe to the western US.


User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 3681 times:

Quoting A350 (Reply 19):
Why not taking a 787 or A350 and install a large premium and a relatively small economy section? You can always sell a couple of economy seats, too, often even for a high price since.

This is basically similar to what UA PS is....but they've kept it to only JFK LAX/SFO routes. Why? I don't know....you'd think also IAD would be logical, as it is a hub....?



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
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