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Pilots Vote 'no Confidence' In NWA Execs  
User currently offlineXbraniffone From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 80 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6876 times:

From the Mpls Star Tribune.

http://www.startribune.com/535/story/1249542.html


"Leaders of the Northwest Airlines pilots union gave the airline's executives a vote of "no confidence" on Friday and plan to carry that message directly to the company's board of directors....."

Specifically, the pilots criticized top management for creating a pilot staffing shortage this summer, which they contend will lead to canceled flights or other schedule disruptions. "The net impact of management's decisions will be a loss of passenger goodwill and a loss of revenue," the pilots said in their resolution.

NWA needs to get rid of Steenland. This company can not continue to compete in this cut throat market with such inner company turmoil. No matter what one thinks of Steenland and his ability, he should step down as leader of the company. NWA needs to mend itself and focus on competing in the market. Managment and labor need to work together. They will never be able to do this with Steenland. He should go, for the sake of the company.

I think employees must hate Steenland so much they may be in favor of a merger just to get rid of him.

We'll see.


DC3 8 9 10, 1011, BAC111, 707 720 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 320 330 340
154 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5343 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6783 times:

I'm not a pilot but you can sure add my vote to that count...

bb


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6744 times:

What would the pilots do differently?


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineAirRyan From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2532 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6730 times:

I used to work at NW and now work for WN - Steenland and his cronies were a big reason why I left - you want to talk about the best airline CEO's in the US, it's amazing how much better GK is than Steenland on so many levels yet is compensated at a fraction that of any other US airline CEO.

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6715 times:

I cannot believe in the last 5-7 years that NWA has been draining itself down the tubes. I am shocked and dismayed how the execs have handled this situation. They need to go and let others step in and take over. I remember flying on them in 1998/1999 as a non-rev and was completely impressed (LOVED the D10!!!!) with everything they had to offer. The employees looked happy to be there.

NWA needs Bethune to come in and take over, turn it around. That will save NWA's face! But thats just me.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineFloris From Netherlands, joined Jun 2003, 243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6555 times:

Is this "Steenland" and his team the same management that brilliantly outsmarted the striking mechanics? If so, they have my full support. Most of the time, when employees are whining, management is doing something that is best for the company in the long run anyway.

User currently offlineMattMSP767 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6540 times:

Bottom line:

If the pilots are that unhappy with the way the company is being run, then they should quit and go work for an airline in which they believe they will be happy with. If it's about money and jobs, then they shouldn't complain as they and all the other union groups have approved their contracts that they are currently working under.

You cannot shoot yourself in the foot and blame someone else.


User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6530 times:

I saw that one coming. Just about everyone in the company has a problem with Doug since he took that $26 mil; however, the problem isn't necessarily Doug himself. One problem is that the airline is being run by accountants and not flight operations. To an accountant you can add planes/flights/people in a matter of seconds with a few clicks of the mouse. In actuality it takes months (6 or more) for a fleet to ramp up (training and operations wise) and thats for an established fleet. For the 787 the ramp up time should be even longer.....


"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlineMattMSP767 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 118 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6515 times:

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 7):
the 787 the ramp up time should be even longer

Why do you say that? Why would it be longer than any other NW widebody?


User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6497 times:

When I was refering to "longer" I ment refering to a longer ramp up time than an established fleet. So, I was meaning that it would take NWA longer than 6 months to fully prepare for 787's arrival.


"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 6473 times:

hmmmm....the Pilots don't like NW mgmt, we know that mechanics have had LONG time issues with it......not sure about FA's, but customers aren't too happy either.....think the Board of NWA might get the message and no confidence him out?


Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineN801NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 744 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6463 times:

Quoting Davescj (Reply 10):
.think the Board of NWA might get the message and no confidence him out?

Let's look at this from the view of the BoD. The creditors of the pre-bankruptcy NWA are now the shareholders of the "new" NWA. The board basically represents those shareholders and they did pretty well considering that the company was possibly on the verge of liquidation in the Fall of 2005. Secured creditors ended up being paid in full (100%) and unsecured creditors should receive 70-80% back. Most Ch. 11 cases result in pennies on the dollar being paid back. Personality vices or vitrues aside, you can say Doug Steenland has done pretty well for the BoD of NWA.


User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6452 times:

Quoting N801NW (Reply 11):
you can say Doug Steenland has done pretty well for the BoD of NWA.

This is a true statement.



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineXbraniffone From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 80 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 6314 times:

Quoting N801NW (Reply 11):
Personality vices or vitrues aside, you can say Doug Steenland has done pretty well for the BoD of NWA.

I agree from the BOD point of view. However the current atmoshphere in NWA can not sustain business and customers will eventually start going to competitors because they will get tired of the bad attitude of the employees. That's it. Gone is the "support the home town business." So, the argument would be, "if the employees don't like it, they can leave." But that's old school thinking. A business has to have a fairly content employee base to be a good company espeically a business that counts on good customer service. You can not compete in this cut throat market and have the employee base very very unhappy. That's the reality. The only reason the MSP and DET popuplation support NWA is because of FF miles. Time will take it's toll, customers will go to competitors and then shareholders will moan and complain and the BOD will moan and complain about market share loss and I for one will say, "I told you so."

It's not about "if Steenland did a good job or not," it's about the company remaining viable in the marketplace. You can not remain a viable company with such a fractured structure. It doesn't work that way anymore.



DC3 8 9 10, 1011, BAC111, 707 720 727 737 747 757 767 777 A319 320 330 340
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8397 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 6289 times:

He's just not a folksy guy that anybody likes. Maybe he is very smart. The BK went fine. Overcoming the mechanic's strike took balls of steel, just a legendary performance, stunning. But the employees are weary of him. Why not bring in someone new, what harm would it bring?

User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6440 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 6272 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 14):
He's just not a folksy guy that anybody likes. Maybe he is very smart. The BK went fine. Overcoming the mechanic's strike took balls of steel, just a legendary performance, stunning. But the employees are weary of him. Why not bring in someone new, what harm would it bring?

The trouble is that it is up to the BOD to bring in someone new and the BOD thinks he did a great job with the bankruptcy. I also agree that NWA needs new top leadership to get the company going in the right direction. All the pieces are in place to have a great company.

That being said, one also has to realize that what the pilots want is not necesarily the best thing for the company. The NWA pilots (or any other airlines pilots) will not be happy until they are making the highest pilot wages in the industy. It is the aim of ALPA to keep raising the bar as each airline contract becomes due. When the pilots had a say in running UA not so long ago they nearly drove it into the ground.


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 6214 times:

Quoting N801NW (Reply 11):
Personality vices or vitrues aside, you can say Doug Steenland has done pretty well for the BoD of NWA.

People seem to think that just because a company manages to exit Chapter 11 everything is good to go. Well as Gordon Bethune said BK fixes your balance sheet, not your company.


User currently offlineNorthwestEWR From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 419 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 6214 times:

I don't know about you but all the NWA employees I've experienced have been great, they're bringing me back to NWA not pushing me away. If anything they're the nicest employees that I've experienced in this business. ( Except maybe Midwest. )

Steenland did an excellent job in BK and I see the new NWA turning around, what sources do you have to show that it's going down the tubes / " STILL barely hanging on " Last I heard their load factor was the highest in the industry and they were making money.



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User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 6208 times:

Quoting Floris (Reply 5):
Most of the time, when employees are whining, management is doing something that is best for the company in the long run anyway.

Maybe you should talk to AirRyan. No one is going to accuse him of being a disgruntled union employee.


User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2084 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 6178 times:

Quoting Xbraniffone (Thread starter):
I think employees must hate Steenland so much they may be in favor of a merger just to get rid of him.

That may end up happening. I've heard as much from not just a few NW employees.


User currently offlineN710PS From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 6167 times:

Quoting NorthwestEWR (Reply 18):

Every crew memeber I come across, every time I go over to them to get a jumpseat or anything else for that matter. I talk to the employees. I am in the industry and I experinced what an airline in bankruptcy is like in not one case but two cases. Seenland treats his employees like dog shit in the mud. You can only kick a dog soo many times before that dog will bit back and it is not over yet. I can tell you that with certainty. Oh and lets not forget the shams in that airlines regional departments as well.



There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
User currently offlineAviatorTJ From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1838 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 6145 times:

Quoting Xbraniffone (Reply 13):
However the current atmoshphere in NWA can not sustain business and customers will eventually start going to competitors because they will get tired of the bad attitude of the employees.

Since when do customers buy tickets based on experience? As long as NWA has the lowest price (and that price remains profitable) the planes will fill themselves. Ousting the CEO won't change the face of the company overnight.


User currently offlineFloridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 6141 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 15):
The trouble is that it is up to the BOD to bring in someone new and the BOD thinks he did a great job with the bankruptcy.

I agree and understand your point there, but traditionally, there have been different people for different times. The board of directors should probably consider that while Steenland may have been the man for the job of handling their difficult bankruptcy, it's time for the mending to begin, and he absolutely may not be the man for that job.



Good goes around!
User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 6092 times:

Quoting Xbraniffone (Reply 13):
and customers will eventually start going to competitors because

Does NW Really Hate Their Customers This Much? (by Lincoln Jun 16 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Says pretty much all I have to say on the subject of 'good will' and customers.

As an aside, I was somewhat discomforted by the lack of familiarity with the aircraft the cabin crew had on my last DTW-CLE flight -- "Anyone know where the oxygen masks are?" (for the safety demo) "Oh, so that's where they put our lunch on these planes" -- "So, which seat am I suposed to sit in?" "Are we suposed to bring the carts out for the service?" "Do you remember how many exits there are?" -- the crew was completely professional, and very appologetic I just found it odd that they weren't more famailiar with the configuration of the aircraft



CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6440 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 6074 times:

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 24):
As an aside, I was somewhat discomforted by the lack of familiarity with the aircraft the cabin crew had on my last DTW-CLE flight

Were you on a NWA, Mesaba or Pinnacle flight?


25 FreequentFlier : Just looking at this thread from afar, its rather fascinating to see the real diversity of views on A.net. We have those more sympathetic to managemen
26 Tango-Bravo : Has anyone one else besides me "had their fill" of non-stop meaningless empty bluster from NWA's pilots? While I fully concur with their 'no confidenc
27 Lincoln : Mainline NWA -- DC-9-50
28 Burnsie28 : Yes because that makes sense, go back to no seniority little pay and starting from the beginning and where would they go. UA pilots are pissed, US pi
29 Floridaflyboy : That's the problem, is that a lot of people on here just don't get it that if you leave your company as a pilot, you start at the bottom of everythin
30 N908AW : If by brilliantly, you mean that the fact they knew they were trying to pay the mechanics crappy wages, so they decided to let them eat themselves ou
31 N231YE : Unfortunately, I have read that NW management has had a history of being at odds with their labor. Steenland did nothing to improve this. Maybe Steenl
32 MCOflyer : China. They can sign a 1yr agreement. Hunter
33 FreequentFlier : Welcome to working in an occupation that's entirely controlled by the unions. Hope you enjoyed paying your dues last month.
34 WJ : I have to say, this comes as a complete shock. Who would have figured that NW workgroups would ever be at odds with management??? They seem like such
35 KingAir200 : Something tells me that many pilots with families aren't going to go fly in China for a year. Even if they did live here and fly in China, the commut
36 3201 : There's cabin service on a DTW-CLE flight? I mean, I know every European carrier on an RJ would have a seven-course meal with real metal knives, fine
37 Floridaflyboy : Whoa, watch your assumptions there, buddy. I don't work in the airline industry at the moment. I work retail, and I'm non-union. No dues.
38 Xbraniffone : Check the prices. NWA rarely has the lowest prices. RARELY
39 Bobnwa : Aren't the seniority rules when changing airlines set by ALPA which is 100% controlled by pilots. If they have to start at the bottom, they are the o
40 Lincoln : I was kind of suprised -- and every time I do CLE-DTW or DTW-CLE the level of service is different, but in First there's a full beverage service (whe
41 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Pilots in general I'd just like to hear what their solution is, and I never seem to get an answer.
42 Jetjack74 : That's because they're most-likley new-hire FA's. It is common for new hires to be unfamiliar with the where service related items are, jumpseat posi
43 FLYGUY767 : Well I am sure the sword in this case runs both ways. Steenland brought NWA out of bankruptcy. His management team saved an airline that could have d
44 Catdaddy63 : This is nothing more than posturing before contract negotiations start, and unfortunately status quo. This round of talks between the lagacies and the
45 Tango-Bravo : There will be plenty of "openings around" within a short time if the pilots of any U.S. legacy shut down their airline long term or permanantly. Unfo
46 Floridaflyboy : That would be a fair assessment if ALPA were the only pilots' union, but they are FAR from it.
47 Bobnwa : In the US what % of pilots belong to ALPA, APA, or the Jet Blue or Southwest unions (not sure what they are called)? My point is that the unions cont
48 Floridaflyboy : First off, jetBlue has no unions at all. Second of all, each individual pilot group has its own branch of their respective union (i.e. NW ALPA, DL AL
49 N908AW : Well, it is what it is, and it stands to reason that hey, maybe the pilots don't like management? However, I would agree with you that this means lit
50 MaverickM11 : They never do, they always want more money for less work, and they'll always know how to run an airline better than management. It's a sure thing, up
51 AirRyan : No, the now defunct bankruptcy saved NW perhaps this one final time; Steenland's simply a lawyer who knew the law and there is no way he's worth twic
52 Goaliemn : And at the same time, it makes it impossible for pilots to leave a bad situation. I'm kinda surprised that the unions haven't sign some sort of agree
53 Lincoln : One of the three was definately (relatively) new-hire -- she was talking about her IOE from a few months ago -- I was just kind of suprised that all
54 Bobnwa : [ The unions could do that in a minute if so moved, but they don't want to do it or they would suffer the wrath of their members. Each individual pilo
55 Post contains images Apodino : One problem with this stems from the workrules being created in the pre-dereg days. Airlines didn't go out of business back then, and everyone stayed
56 Burnsie28 : Uh it was long before that, nobody at NW liked Steenland before he became CEO. I have and always found NW around the lowest. Cuz its just that easy..
57 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Ha. Please. I can't imagine WHY What's their solution?
58 Burnsie28 : Ok, I guess you know all the facts....
59 Bobnwa : It is up to the airline unions to put this in place since they control seniority. The AA union APA prevented the TWA pilots from maintaining their se
60 Post contains links Ual777 : http://airlinepilotcentral.com/web_v...line_ceo_salaries_20070609234.html
61 MaverickM11 : Same with US/HP
62 SEPilot : The seniority system has been in place as long as the airlines, and I believe longer than the unions. I don't know how it was started, but I have a p
63 Bobnwa : I think your idea of how the seniority system started is all wrong. It is a total union deal, and has laways been. Think about the commander of Air F
64 SEPilot : Read "Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest Gann. He started flying for AA in (I believe) 1938; the seniority system was firmly in place then; in fact, he kn
65 MCIGuy : They'd better tread lightly. The current climate in the US is not friendly to unions in any industry and they may eventually find themselves looking f
66 Bobnwa : I did read it and it was a great book. Do you think the seniority system then prevented a pilot with thousands of hours from being at the bottom of t
67 MaverickM11 : True, but now that bankruptcy is behind all carriers and they've barely eked out a profit, pilots' unions have decided the industry is 110% back and
68 Charlienorth : ALPA started representing pilots in the mid 1930's. Even though I understand the "no confidence" vote,it seems to be all water under the bridge at th
69 SEPilot : I doubt it. If you recall from the book Gann talks about the dispatchers; they wielded almost total control. He also talks about how rare it was for
70 Jetjack74 : Yep, well, there are many reasons for that: 1. They're in a probationary status for the first 6 consecutaive months of employment, and one bad letter
71 Bobnwa : Jetjack, We have disagreed on a couple of issues at NWA, but I have to say that you have one of the best positive attitudes I have come across. You h
72 ThePinnacleKid : Maverick.. I feel you totally miss the point... they are not actually demanding their pay back because they believe that the company is fully recover
73 Post contains images JRDC930 : Lets see how well an airline runs when no one can fly the planes. Or how about disgruntled pilots, you dont think their frustration wont affect their
74 Bobnwa : The pilots running UA (along with the other employee groups) nearly drove it into the ground a few years back and the pilots running KIWI did run it i
75 Buddys747 : Agree 100%. Thats right , I forgot, your also the one that said pilots just sit there and don't do anything, hmmmm.
76 SEPilot : I think the issue that is overlooked here is that great managers are very rare. People like Lee Iaccocca, Jack Welsh, and their ilk that can take a tr
77 KaiGywer : Actually, from MSP, NW usually has the lowest prices.
78 Post contains images MaverickM11 : And apparently they need a union for that Mostly in stock options that were agreed to previously
79 JRDC930 : To a point this is true,airlines cant exist without pilots. They are the ones that keep the planes flying along with other employees not the capitali
80 Goaliemn : Using that same logic, the airline can't exist without the computer people uploading flight plans and weather information.. Nor without the people to
81 MCIGuy : Flying a plane is the most fun thing I can think of without getting paid for it. I'm sure if ALPA were to dissolve the airlines wouldn't have trouble
82 Post contains images JRDC930 : And bargain basement skills lets watch the safety levels fall then shall we. I cant believe what im hearing on this board. Equating pilots with commo
83 Post contains images MaverickM11 : And then you say this.... Nope...no bias here
84 Post contains images ThePinnacleKid : JRDC930... A.net is always full of people like this... you just gotta let their comments go in one ear and out the other and realize that a majority W
85 LMP737 : And who were the other employee groups? Along with the piltos there were the IAM represented workers along with the non-union employees. Together the
86 N908AW : Haha. Maybe because a healthy majority of those are monopolies. It's easy to be the lowest on MSP-FAR or MSP-OMA, for instance.
87 Post contains images MCIGuy : Exactly, so you should be grateful you're one of the lucky few who get to do it.
88 FreequentFlier : While I think if you polled a lot of airline management employees, they might agree with you about "I'd rather be flying". It is one of the coolest j
89 ThePinnacleKid : I didn't want to imply that sentiment... I was more interested in pointing out that the "pilot" work group is the truly unique group at an airline...
90 UAL777 : See thats the thing, being a pilot is not a matter of "luck". It is a matter of hard work. For example, for every 1.5ish hour flight lesson, I spend
91 Bobnwa : I think you have the railroad wrong. The conductor is the boss, not the engineer, who is just the driver.
92 ThePinnacleKid : Bobnwa... no, I'm fully aware of that... but the engineer and fireman (steam days) were the ones that were unique...
93 Post contains links PhilSquares : Perhaps I am reading what you wrote incorrectly, but you don't have it quite right. Both NW and DL are represented by ALPA. NW is led by the NW MEC (
94 Bobnwa : Phil, good article. Now a question for you. If you were the Czar of ALPA would you seek a national seniority list for all the ALPA carriers? I would b
95 MaverickM11 : Really? Tell me which is more likely, a pilotless plane or an airline run by a computer?
96 PhilSquares : To be honest, I don't think having a national seniority list would solve anything. For someone who has entered through the flight instructor/regional
97 JRDC930 : Agreed, i may only be a mere private pilot, it was not easy and i times i even felt like quiting, add to that i spent 10,000 plus dollars just for a
98 MaverickM11 : Today's passenger aircraft are a lot easier to fly than a Cessna-152
99 ThePinnacleKid : in my opinion, an airline nearly completely run by a computer.... how many times do you get mad at people on the road and make fun of their driving??
100 Flighty : That is ridiculous. Being a pilot is skilled but it's no more skilled than an MBA/finance. Sorry. $40,000 worth of training? That is a tiny sum compar
101 SEPilot : Very interesting and excellent summary. You bring up a point that I have always believed, that any organization has a character that is larger than a
102 MaverickM11 : Sure it is. Not as much as you think though, particularly with respect to other industry employees. They've been able to fly an entire route from tak
103 Jetjack74 : Well, it takes more energy to be pissed off at things you have little or no control over. I voted in favour of the tentitive deal we struck because I
104 SEPilot : We are missing a very important point here. What is crucial for a pilot, a CEO, a surgeon and many other "skilled" professions is not training so muc
105 Post contains images JRDC930 : Oh yeah siting in a cubicle as a bean counter requires lots of skill. Im not saying Flying is the most difficult job, but you certainly have alot to
106 MaverickM11 : What do you think goes on at an airline's headquarters? You clearly have no idea. The 707? It was crashed on purpose. That was the point of the test.
107 Incitatus : Say you create a pile of cash through savings and you need a "bean-counter" to manage it. Does it make any difference what kinds of skill that bean c
108 ThePinnacleKid : Flighty... you're misquoting me... the $40,000 is not to learn to fly... that is the rough cost TO THE AIRLINE after they hire a new pilot to train th
109 Goaliemn : Exactly. I could go into detail about industry specific info for my engineering job and noone but another engineer would understand it.. Every profes
110 MaverickM11 : Oh *that* one...that was an unusual fly by, in a brand new design, and could never be used as an indictment of an autopilot system.
111 UAL777 : You have no idea what you are talking about. Just wait until you get severe turbulence at cruise where your altitude deviates by 1,000 feet or more i
112 KingAir200 : Seeing how we are talking about NWA, I'll toss in the DC-9 example. Have you ever, a, been in the cockpit of a DC-9, b, known and spoke to someone wh
113 SEPilot : Regarding all this discussion of how easy or not it may be to be a pilot; it is my observation that every occupation has its own "tricks of the trade,
114 Post contains images SNCntry32 : I would love to know what made it so unusual MaverickM11.. Ahh, but theres always been a pilot present.
115 Flydeltasjets : Maverick, Have you flown both? If you haven't, you have no idea what you are talking about. If you have, you are being intentionally misleading. Eith
116 Incitatus : Quite obviously, that is a result of the much lower compensation packages offered to executvies by airlines compared to other businesses. I have neve
117 Flydeltasjets : Incit, You might be right, but Steen's 26 mil and Tilton's 40 mil doesn't sound too bad to me! The interesting thing to consider is that the lowered c
118 Post contains images Buddys747 : Gee that's funny Maverick, not too long ago you were saying pilots just sit there and don't do anything and make too much money doing nothing. Now th
119 Post contains images UAL777 : Fear not, I'm a quality pilot. Can I throw your gear now?
120 JRDC930 : My point is pilots like any other employee in a company should have a say in its affairs. Thankfully this is a free nation and we have the right to fo
121 Incitatus : Without qualification this is wrong. Companies are not democracies. Pilots are hired to fly airplanes. CEOs are hired to motivate others to work, to
122 MaverickM11 : I was not referring to DC-9s or anything built before the late 80s. A fly by in an aircraft that neither the pilot nor the manufacturer fully underst
123 MaverickM11 : Can you point to me where the autopilot is on the 152? Maybe I should clarify--I think the 152 is a much more labor intensive aircraft, as in there i
124 MaverickM11 : Do you have any stats to back that up? I'd suggest what you end up with are people who want to be in the airline industry, in spite of the meagre pay
125 PhilSquares : I have asked this question of you before and it has gone unanswered. Perhaps you'd like to share your credentials with everyone on this forum. You ob
126 SNCntry32 : Well, yes, there has always been a pilot in the plane. Pilots are human like you and I, and everyone makes mistakes and errors. It is a fact of life.
127 JRDC930 : Well they will be soon enough in the U.S. people are getting pissed at the rich and well see much more socialist type reforms in the U.S. soon enough
128 SEPilot : Any company exists for one reason, and that is to make money. Obviously the best way to make money is to have everyone who works there dedicated to t
129 Post contains images MaverickM11 : OK you win, two fingers. Tell me the meaningful difference between one finger and two fingers Which question? You trust many computers to do all kind
130 Flydeltasjets : I'm sorry maverick, having never flown an airliner, you still have no idea what you are talking about. Is laser eye surgery easier, or less "labor in
131 JRDC930 : Please explain... Anyways i find it hard to believe so many people are against unions, it has not been that long in the U.S. since we were allowed to
132 SNCntry32 : Yes, but with the help of a trained, and skilled pilot always by the controls. Its not like there is someone sitting on the ground flying the plane.
133 MaverickM11 : Unions restrict labor flexibility, thus making it more difficult to hire and fire, thus restricting movement of labor. Eh? Planes can fly themselves.
134 YULWinterSkies : Some do. Especially the high-fare J travelers and all frequent flyers in general... Who cares if Mr X doesn't buy the cheapest seat because he has a
135 Flydeltasjets : Why do you continue to opine on a subject about which you know nothing? I have flown both. You haven't. Believe me when I tell you that flying an airl
136 SNCntry32 : MaverickM11, would you ever fly on a plane that we completely flown by a computer?
137 PhilSquares : The meaningful issue is you don't have a clue what you're talking about. One finger or two is great when everything is working fine, but what when it
138 N908AW : Actually, the pilots rejected a strike a few years back. Had they kept their stand and struck, it woulda been the end of NW. More socialist movements
139 Post contains images JRDC930 : I dont any more, but every one seems to be ignoring my question of why management does not treat employes decently, Why coerce your employees when yo
140 UAL777 : Go look at the reliability and crash rates on UAVs and get back to me. You might also want to look up the lost data link rates.
141 Incitatus : Notice that in the context of this thread, we are talking about organized labor that makes 6-figures. Guess what, those are the "rich" too. They are
142 JRDC930 : I was merely stating my opinion, i dont claim to be an expert, but there are many companies out there that are profitable and treat their employees f
143 Flighty : Slavery is illegal in the USA. You are talking about free, strong workers. Complaining makes them sound like children. They are not children. They ar
144 JRDC930 : You contradict yourself, you need money to make it i n the U.S. that is you need to be born into it. College is unaffordable to most even some very t
145 Post contains images MaverickM11 : If you asked someone in 1912 if they would ever fly transcontinental in an airplane, what do you think their answer would be? I'm not talking about e
146 PhilSquares : Oh a scholar at everything who knows nothing! I will disregard anything you have to say....Adios
147 Dsuairptman : Just remember Steenland went to school under Frank Lorenzo while he was wrecking Continental back in the day. Sounds like New Executive/Same tricks
148 SEPilot : Reading your exchanges with people such as PhilSquares who actually have qualifications to discuss the issues at hand does not leave a good impressio
149 Flighty : You're right. We do have an unequal country and I hope we can get it fixed someday. Is the solution to rip on CEOs, maybe, but I would rather rip on
150 SEPilot : What about Bill Gates, Michael Dell, Sam Walton, Warren Buffett, and many others who started with nothing but an idea and became very wealthy? I know
151 Flighty : Sorry, yes, I meant equality of opportunity and so did JRDC930. It is hard to go to college if you are poor. That, and health care, are the central e
152 SEPilot : It is hard, but by no means impossible. I went to what was one of the most expensive colleges in the US at the time, and I was able to get scholarshi
153 JRDC930 : Ok, but out of how many millions of college age students that do want to get in, never get there, because they were born into circumstances. it is no
154 SEPilot : That, I believe, is just untrue. 70% I believe, but not 99%. But this misses the point; you don't advance anyone by pulling others down. The average
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