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Did Caravelle Give A Solid Ride?  
User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3588 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3797 times:

I was talking to my father two or three week ago, and he told that a 727 gave much more solid ride than a 737. I was wondering do a Caravelle give as solid of a ride as a 727 did?

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8088 posts, RR: 54
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3775 times:

I flew on an Air Inter Caravelle in the summer of '90 from Paris (Orly) to Quimper. The ride was rock-solid. The takeoff was long and we climbed on runway heading for at least ten minutes, not really putting much air between us and the suburbs of Paris, which were no doubt paralysed by the deafening old engines. We got up there eventually, and the flight was the smoothest I can remember. It really stands out in my mind, you could have built a house of cards on the tray like in the old Comet 1 promo newreels. I remember on finals there was a giant blast of full power, more due to a misjusgement on the part of the pilot than the aircraft. Then we landed and rolled out with a final screech of reverse thrust.

Beautiful well-balanced machine sadly missed. Although not, I suspect, by anyone living under the flightpath.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineM404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2225 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3762 times:
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I've wonder if those very long, by today's standards, wings and lack of leading edge devices gave increase in what your calling a "solid" ride. Do you mean less bumpy, less prone to the jiggles of air turbulance? I've flown the CVR in many areas but that was in the 60-67 year group so do not have recent memories but do have absulutly no negative feelings either. I looked forward to the window size and that incredible climb rate just after getting "unstuck" on TO.


Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offlineScottieDog From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3723 times:

Oh yes, the triangular windows!!

Well remember my rides on Air France, SAS and Sabena, and had no complaints.

Can well remember (yes, I am getting grey around the hair) the early Caravelles having braking parachutes that they would occasionally deposit on the runway (before exiting to the taxiway), much to the annoyance of ATC at Manchester.

Scottiedog (getting older every minute)


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8088 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3718 times:

Quoting ScottieDog (Reply 3):
Can well remember (yes, I am getting grey around the hair) the early Caravelles having braking parachutes that they would occasionally deposit on the runway (before exiting to the taxiway), much to the annoyance of ATC at Manchester.


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fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3687 times:

Quoting ScottieDog (Reply 3):
Can well remember the early Caravelles having braking parachutes that they would occasionally deposit on the runway (before exiting to the taxiway), much to the annoyance of ATC at Manchester.

Not to mention the handling agent, who had to go to the RWY and collect the brake-chute and then fold it quickly so it could be put in the belly and taken back home with the return flight, where the maintenance department of the airline had to fold the chute in a very specific way so they could be re-stowed in the tail cone for its next use...

Quite a hastle really, which is why it was asked (at least at Sabena) not to make use of it if not absolutely needed although I can image that at SAS it must have been used very frequently as it was SOP on contaminated runways.


User currently offlineSDF880 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3669 times:

I rode on Airborne Express SE-210's quite a lot and I always thought they were nice a/c to ride on.

SDF880


User currently offlineScooter01 From Norway, joined Nov 2006, 1201 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3569 times:
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Quoting M404 (Reply 2):
I've wonder if those very long, by today's standards, wings and lack of leading edge devices gave increase in what your calling a "solid" ride. Do you mean less bumpy, less prone to the jiggles of air turbulence?

I remember my first jet-ride ever in a Sabena Caravelle from CPH to BRU, I must have been 10 or 11 years old. It was raining when we took off and when we got into the clouds it became quite bumpy. I could not believe those wingtips flapping up and down (being used to piston-engined aircraft), but when we came out on top of the clouds, it was unbelievably smooth.

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
and he told that a 727 gave much more solid ride than a 737

I'm wondering if that has anything to do with a "clean" wing vs. one that is made structurally stronger to carry the weight of the engines and transfer their thrust to the rest of the airframe?


Scooter



"We all have a girl and her name is nostalgia" - Hemingway
User currently offlineM404 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2225 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3516 times:
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Anyone remember the Electra? Short stubby wings but had to hold 2 each big Tprops. Especially after the Tell City crash when the wings were REALLY strengthend. That could be a bumby ride and there was hardly any flex then. Flexing absords some AT bumps.


Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3588 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 7):
I'm wondering if that has anything to do with a "clean" wing vs. one that is made structurally stronger to carry the weight of the engines and transfer their thrust to the rest of the airframe?

My father also told me, a 707 was had a very solid ride, more so than a 747. Now a 707 has four engines, two on each wing, so it should transfer more energy thought out the airframe, but it solid as a rock.


User currently offlineWoodsboy From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1031 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3340 times:

I had one ride on a Caravelle from Papette, Tahiti to Roratonga in the Cook Islands back in....Im going to say, 1981- either 81 or 82. It was a French Air Force Caravelle, I dont know why they used a militayr a/c for this flight, perhaps it was chartered or providing some sort of essential service between PPT and RAR. Later on A.net I saw a picture of the or perhaps a sister ship Caravelle that was a French Air Force plane, I dont know how many they had back in the early 80s but it could have been the same one.

Back in 81/82 I was already a snarky 12 year old airplane geek so I was very excited about the Caravelle ride. I remember a long t/o roll and a shallow climb out over PPT harbour taking off to the south. I know that we didnt get up to the normal cruise alt. I was use to of 30K feet since we weaved in and around clouds the whole way. We were seated in front of the wing on the right side and I had the window- of course! I know my Dad took pics of the plane both in PPT and RAR but that was in the day of slides so they are in one of about 150 carousels we have stored, maybe someday I will find it. I remember the windows were HUGE and the view was magnificent. The flight was about 2 hours as I recall and it was great fun. Here is a link to a Caravelle in PPT from 1989 but it was obviously one of the ones based there in the 80s.
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0717214/M/


User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4313 posts, RR: 36
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3140 times:

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 9):
My father also told me, a 707 was had a very solid ride, more so than a 747. Now a 707 has four engines, two on each wing, so it should transfer more energy thought out the airframe, but it solid as a rock.

The 707 actually was always said to be bumpy due to it's large wings and tail. The VC-10 was much more loved by BOAC passengers even while the interior was much the same as their 707s, because it gave a smoother ride.
I flew on 707s (MEA and Saha) and Il-62s (Cubana) and both seemed stable and smooth.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineSaleya22R From France, joined Mar 2007, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 3068 times:
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Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):

My first flight in a Caravelle took place in the early 60s. In the 70s and early 80s I frequently flew in many versions the last being Sterling's stretched version which they called the Super Star Caravelle. As far as solidity and smoothness is concerned we are talking about how it felt 30+ years ago. But since I was aviation interested already as a kid I can confirm that the rides felt solid. I felt that they sometimes floated an eternity in the ground effect specially in the winter, with dense air and no turbulence. Compared with the early DC niners the approach with Caravelles felt smoother. I flew very little in 727s but was impressed with the advanced wing structure as well as the performance. Both the BAC 1-11 and Trident "felt" underpowered compared at least with the JT8D powered Caravelles.


User currently offlineJetJeanes From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2903 times:

The ones at abx were way under powered and were limited to weight it could carry compared to the 727.... They may have been good in their day trying to compete but they were no 727 dc-9 or 737


i can see for 80 miles
User currently offlineGr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3098 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2888 times:

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
I was wondering do a Caravelle give as solid of a ride as a 727 did?

Can't comment on the ride, but the Caravelles sure used to give a solid shock to the ears of the hapless people who happened to be below it's takeoff path.....I used to live close to BOM airport in the 70's and suffered many a taking-off IC Caravelles back then... smile 

But the BA and East African VC-10's made the Caravelle sound like music....  Big grin


User currently offlineToptravel From Italy, joined Oct 2005, 144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2666 times:

Agree the VC-10 sounded like a pack of screeching dogs in heat. My last ride in a Caravelle was from SXM/SJU on AF and was the one of the sweetest rides I can remember. Landing on that day in SJU is a landing I will always remember, so smooth I didn't realise we were in contact with the runway. With no reverse thrust on Caravelles, we just kind of rolled to a stop with minor braking at the end of the roll. Sweet aircraft like the Comet but a lot quiter.

Now back to my rocking chair..


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week ago) and read 2621 times:

Very smooth rides. Flow them with LTU several times, last flight with Kibris Turk. Early 732s I considered louder and more bumpy, the 727 again was bigger and the ride the smoothest of the three.

Burkhard


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8002 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 11):
The 707 actually was always said to be bumpy due to it's large wings and tail.

I remember flying the 707-320B on a Cathay Pacific (CX) flight from Hong Kong to Penang, Malaysia and gawd, you felt the turbulence quite strongly. I'm surprised I didn't get airsickness.


User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3588 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2382 times:

Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 13):
The ones at abx were way under powered and were limited to weight it could carry compared to the 727.... They may have been good in their day trying to compete but they were no 727 dc-9 or 737

I would think the JT-8 powered ones, would have a good amout of power.


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8670 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2371 times:

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 18):

I would think the JT-8 powered ones, would have a good amout of power.

Anyone have a pic?

Hunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25132 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2351 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 19):
Quoting 747400sp (Reply 18):

I would think the JT-8 powered ones, would have a good amout of power.

Anyone have a pic?


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User currently offlineConvair880 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2137 times:

got a cockpit ride in an Air Inter Caravelle from Nice to Orly in 1972--the noise on t/o was unreal-ride was rock solid smooth the whole way, despite typical summer afternoon heating at the lower altitudes-
the cockpit door was open for most of cruise flight and I just asked a F/A if I could check out the front office-simple as that-the crew let me ride jump seat until throttle back for descent-those were the days!!
wish I had looked at the registration so I could now know what model it was


User currently offlineAviastar From Belarus, joined Nov 2000, 280 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2023 times:

Btw, any Caravelle still flying today? Who last operated a Caravelle? I remember some photos taken in Africa just a few years ago.

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2003 times:

Two were still registered in Africa ( Congo) last year, Waltair if I remeber correctly. Anybody knows anthing about it? They are on the Black List of the EU, so they will not come here...

Wikipedia says:
Flight International's World Airliner Census for 2006 lists two SE-210's (10B & 11R) still with Waltair (Europe). However, reference in Airways Magazine (airwaysmag.com) shows Waltair retiring their 10B, B3 N° 169 in July 2005. This was supposedly the last operational Caravelle in the world.
May 2005 issue of Airliner World stated in a special "50th anniversary of Caravelle" article, that there are two Caravelles reported as flying/flyable. Both of them are in Africa, most probably at Kinshasa. Seeing them flying today is unlikely.


User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1999 times:

Aviastar, the last one flying crashed when it got lost and run out of fuel over Congo-Kinshasa.
This aircraft is featured in the DVD "Gabon Express" from www.justplanes.com


25 Post contains links Burkhard : This was in August 2004. Question I cannot answer is if the Waltairs had any flight after than. All I found in http://www.aerostories.org/~aerobibl...
26 Post contains links and images N14AZ : Gabon Express View Large View MediumPhoto © Julian Whitelaw Waltair View Large View MediumPhoto © Elliott Kefalas Funny, they have almost t
27 Burkhard : There was an airline called Malu Aviation in South Africa, seems these colors ar a part of their scheme.
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