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Emirates Impact In Toronto  
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4774 posts, RR: 43
Posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5398 times:

Ever since EK made the announcement of its intention to launch DXB-YYZ flights from Oct 29th, many people have wondered what sort of an impact it will have on the YYZ market and how it will compare with Etihad Airways especially.

Whats written below me, is a detailed account on what sort of a threat I feel Emirates-EK poses in the YYZ market to its nearest online rivals i.e. EY, PK & AI to the Indian subcontinent, Africa, Middle East & Far East.

Since EY is their nearest rival in this market segment, most of this email would be concentrated on comparing them to EK.

Lets start by looking at the difference in their respective "costs of operations" :

a) To begin with, both airlines will be flying the route 3 times a week from their respective hubs in AUH & DXB however, EK has the major advantage here because there is more O&D + high yielding premium traffic in J & F class bound for DXB than there is for AUH from YYZ.

b) EK also has another advantage by flying their B 773ER to YYZ which offers 68 seats more per flight than EY does i.e. 204 seats per week more. Not only that but the B 773ER has the capability to carry 2-3 tons of more cargo per flight than EY's A 346.

c) EK's "flying" costs from UAE to YYZ is lower than EY because its flying a 2 engined 354 seater B 773ER versus EY flying a slower, 4 engined, 286 seater Airbus A 340-600 (from July 3). By having cheaper operating costs and more capacity on offer, EK has the capability to offer cheaper fares than EY does out of YYZ to markets in the GCC, IKA KHI, BOM & BKK.

d) The only advantage I feel that EY has in terms of operation costs at YYZ is the fact that its landing & ground handling fees would be less at Pearson Airport than EK's. The reason being that unlike EK, they are not parking their aircraft for 6 hours at the airport which would be a huge expense as YYZ Pearson Airport is officially the world's most expensive airport to fly to.

In this area, the overall advantage rests with EK.


In-flight product :

a) EY's in flight product on board their A 345 in all 3 cabin classes is magnificent. In J class, the seat pitch is 88 inches and reclines into a full flat bed & the privacy their First Class cabins offer is unparalleled.

b) FYI...EK is bringing their brand new B 773ER to YYZ which will have the "new" First & Business & Economy class seats. EK's new J class has a 78 inch seat pitch and the seat reclines into a full flat bed...but its smaller than EY's! Their Y class product I've personally experienced on both the A 332 and B 773 this year in March and apart from the superb in-flight entertainment on offer, the seats are very cramped and having a row of 10 seats on the B 777s is extremely uncomfortable.

c) The only area where I feel EK has an edge over EY in the in-flight product category is their superior video/audio entertainment system which offers 130 video channels in all 3 cabin classes + 350 audio channels.

Therefore, the advantage in the in-flight product category, I would say goes to EY !


Connections via DXB / AUH to GCC :

In this market, we shall be looking at how EK & EY connect passengers via their respective hubs to KWI, DOH & MCT as these places form the core of the GCC.

To KWI, DOH & MCT, EK wins hands down as on the outbound sector from YYZ, as pax have to transit for approximately 12-14 hours in AUH to catch a connecting flight where as if they flew EK via DXB, the transit time on the outbound sector varies from 2 to 4 hours maximum thus much more convenient. On the inbound sector however, both EK & EY offer convenient 2 hour connections to YYZ via their hubs, but at the end of the day since EK has better outbound connections via DXB, they would be the preferred carrier for this market segment from YYZ.

Advantage EK for the GCC as they have better connections in BOTH DIRECTIONS.


Connections via DXB / AUH to Pakistan :

The main market from YYZ to Pakistan is Northern Pakistan i.e. LHE & ISB but more so to LHE due to the majority of the Pakistani immigrant population hailing from that city. To Northern Pakistan, Etihad Airways offers convenient connections on all its 3 flights via AUH to LHE & ISB in both directions where as Emirates doesnt. To LHE, EK only has a direct once a week connection from YYZ and twice a week on the way back, where as to ISB, twice a week connections available outbound and once a week inbound. Therefore over here, from a convenience aspect, EY would be the carrier of choice for passengers.

To KHI, both EY & EK offer excellent connections (max 2 hour transit) via their hubs to YYZ on the inbound sector to YYZ, but on the way to KHI, EY has a better schedule as you only have a 1 hour transit in AUH compared to 6 hours in DXB if you flew EK. However, EK offers more weekly capacity to KHI and the airline has a cult following amongst KHI locals as it technically is their "unofficial flag carrier" by offering one stop flights via its DXB hub to all major cities of the world in the eastern and western hemisphere. By offering more capacity to KHI compared to EY, EK has the capability of offering lower fares from YYZ to KHI.

One who really needs to be concerned with EY & EK flying nonstop to YYZ via the UAE is PIA and their market share on the PAK-YYZ-PAK route especially from KHI as their fares are much higher in both directions versus their Arab rivals in both business and economy classes. They know fully well how EK has taken a majority of their market share to JFK, Heathrow, the Middle East and Europe from KHI since the mid 1990s and not to under estimate it on their best performing North American route!

To conclude from YYZ to PAK and vice versa, EY has much better connections than EK does in both directions + in greater frequency too as all of its 3 weekly flights connect amicably. But at the end of the day, it will all come down to who offers the lower air fare and whether EK provides free STPC in DXB for passengers having a long transit.

To Pakistan, advantage Etihad !


Connections via DXB / AUH to India :

Apart from the O&D to DXB, the YYZ-India sector has the potential to be a profitable 6th freedom route for EK in the long run. With regards to India on the whole, it must be noted that to the naked eye, EK wins this round against EY hands down because it has a wider presence in the country by flying more flights to more cities than EY mainly due to the fact that it is an older carrier! To India, EY flies only to BOM, DEL, COK & TRV and is lobbying hard for new flights to BLR, HYD & MAA.

Lets start with the 2 main markets i.e. BOM & DEL. To the latter, both carriers offer excellent connections via their hubs but EY has an edge as it flies a SAME PLANE service using their latest A 346 from DEL via AUH to YYZ. On the other hand, EK too has a SAME PLANE service using a B 773ER from DEL but to JFK on a daily basis and not YYZ ! To DEL, the advantage would lie with EY but EK's connection times via DXB is only 2-3 hours in both directions and that DEL bound passengers wont mind at all as its duty free is way better than AUH. For DEL, it will most likely come down to air fare price as well as what incentive the airline gives to the local agents to increase sales.

To Mumbai-BOM, I would give EK the edge over EY mainly due to 2 reasons. The first one is that EK flies 3 times daily to the city using A 332s thus offering more capacity per week to BOM than EY thus potentially allowing it to offer reduced fares along the lines of KHI. The second reason is that EK's in-flight product in all 3 cabin classes of their A 332 is way superior than EY's leased A 343 (an ex SQ plane) which is flown on the AUH-BOM sector on a daily basis. The schedules though of both carriers in both directions is excellent for the YYZ market so just like DEL, it will come down to travel agent incentive + air fare price tag to see who wins the YYZ-BOM battle...my money is on EK to BOM due to the two reasons mentioned at the top of this paragraph!

To BLR/CCU/HYD & MAA, there is no contest as EY doesnt fly to any of those cities for the time being, so EK wins here.

Some of you also reckon that 9W and AI will impact EK & EY in YYZ. 9W will on the BOM & DEL sectors only and AI on the latter but the demographic and demands of the Indian passenger has changed now and you will rarely find a BLR/HYD/MAA & CCU bound pax wanting to transit via BOM or DEL to get to their home town. They rather pay an extra $ 70-120 to fly straight into their home town airport from Europe or the Middle East than go through the ordeal and hassle of a BOM/DEL transit. This is to EK's advantage as it flies to more Indian cities than any other Middle Eastern carrier i.e. BOM/DEL/HYD/CCU/COK/TRV/MAA/BLR.

I also predict AI's DEL market share to fall even further in spite of it offering fares at $ 1000 levels (+ $ 350 tax) from YYZ. The reason being is that its a 2 stop service via BHX & ATQ using an ageing ex UAL 1995 model B 772ER which has seen better days. Quite a few times, the aircraft used for YYZ has had major technical problems causing major delays as well as a couple of fire hazards; all of which have dented AI's PR image in the YYZ market. A DEL bound pax I feel now would any day pay an extra $ 50-80 to fly 9W, EK or EY via BRU/DXB/AUH to DEL rather than AI.

Winner for YYZ-India : EK


Connections via DXB / AUH to Colombo-CMB :

In this market segment, once again EK is the clear winner as its flights connect both ways where as EY's doesnt in either direction. If EK releases a fare sheet which allows codesharing with UL-Sri Lankan Airlines on the DXB-CMB-DXB route, then the transit time in DXB on the outbound sector is approximately 3 hours and on the inbound sector its 2 hours. If codesharing isnt permitted as part of the fare basis, then the inbound transit time at DXB enroute to YYZ remains 2 hours but on the outbound its 7 hours approximately!

Ever since 2002, traffic between YYZ and CMB has grown rapidly due to the cease fire agreement between the Tamil Tigers and the Government. There are approximately 250,000 Sri Lankans residing in Ontario province alone which goes to show the potential size of this market!

Two other advantages for EK in the CMB market segment is that it flies triple daily flights, one terminator, one via MLE and one which continues on to SIN + its nearest rival to CMB i.e. UL which offers one stop flights via LHR on AC is managed by EK i.e. 44% stake so expect UL to codeshare with EK on this route from DXB.

To CMB, the advantage clearly lies with EK compared to EY.


Connections via DXB / AUH to Dhaka-DAC :

To DAC, the main threat that EY & EK will face from YYZ comes from BA who offer convenient one stop flights via LHR to the city 3 times a week. Another form of serious competition comes in the form of QR who offer very low fares to DAC via EU & DOH from YYZ. But with now EK & EY offering ONE STOP flights to DAC along with BA from YYZ, these 3 carriers will be the prefered choice for many DAC bound passengers.

To DAC, EY has better connections in both directions compared to EK but on a twice weekly basis only. EK has good connections on all 3 outbound flights from YYZ via DXB i.e. 5 hour transit in DXB but on the inbound its 8 hours in DXB compared to 2 hours in AUH if one flew EY. A passenger can withstand a 5 hour transit but 8 hours in any airport is really pushing it!

In terms of scheduling convenience, EY wins + it sends its new A 332 to DAC which has a better J & Y class product than EK's old B 772A (non ER model) and B 77W which fly the route.

To DAC from YYZ, its advantage EY!


Connections via DXB / AUH to Bangkok-BKK :

When you look at the geographical location of the UAE, one can make out that it will take as much time flying EK or EY to BKK from Eastern USA/Canada via UAE as it would a European/UK carrier. The fastest airline to get to BKK from YYZ is CX via HKG and its also the cheapest and most prefered airline in this market segment. However, BKK is growing as a tourist destination for many Canadians due to "luxury being bought" i.e. hotel rates, shopping, sight seeing tours at affordable prices compared to those in Europe, Africa, USA and Latin America.

To BKK, EK flies triple daily using 1 B 773 + 2 B 773ERs and EY flies double daily using also B 773ERs. The second fastest airline after CX to fly to BKK from YYZ in both directions is Etihad Airways because the transit times in AUH are minimal i.e. 1 hour outbound and 2 hours inbound which is very convenient. On EK, its 8 hours outbound which is a hassle and 2 hours inbound. Plus the connecting outbound flight on EK is flown using their oldest Boeing 773As (non ER model built in 1995) which has an inferior in-flight product in J & Y class compared to EY's B 773ERs.

Therefore to BKK, its advantage Etihad from Toronto.


Connections via DXB / AUH to Tehran - IKA / THR :

The Iranian market is huge from YYZ and one can easily certify this statement of mine by looking at the number of passengers carried in 2006 by KLM, AF & LH via their hubs to Tehran. Now they will face more competition from EK who like them will offer one stop flights via DXB to IKA. But the big question is will EK offer low fares in the range of CAD 800-900 + tax from YYZ to IKA like AF/KL did last year?

To Tehran from YYZ and vice versa, EK wins hands down compared to EY as all of their flights connect in both directions where as EY doesnt at all comfortably. On the outbound sector, pax flying EK have a 5 hour transit in DXB and 2 hours on the inbound which is perfect.

I also feel that EK will be a popular choice for Iranian immigrants flying back home due to a variety of reasons. They are guaranteed an authentic "halal" meal on board which is very important to them as EK is a "Muslim airline" where as the quality of halal food served by the EU carriers is nothing to write home about! A vast majority of expat Iranians residing in YYZ hold Canadian passports and would love the idea of breaking their journey in DXB for 2-3 days to see the sights enroute to Tehran or on the way back. Due to them possessing Canadian passports, they would get a UAE visa upon arrival at DXB. Also by breaking their journey in DXB, they can take advantage of EK's famed and very popular "Dubai Stopover" packages offered by Emirates Holidays division. Lastly, EK's Y class product is superior to KL, AF and especially LH who dont have tvs on board their A 340s and A 330s that fly the YYZ-FRA-IKA route.

Therefore to Tehran, Iran its advantage EK over EY.

Concluding, here are the summarized results on who has an edge in a particular sector :

To the GCC : EK
Pakistan : EY
India : EK
BKK : EY
Iran : EK
CMB : EK
DAC : EY
Costs of operation : EK
In-flight product : EY
Higher volume of O&D traffic (high yielding especially in J & F Class) : EK
EK wins in 6 out of 10 categories

Concluding, it does seem that EK has a major edge over EY from YYZ but dont under estimate EY as they have billions of $$$ of cash reserves, they're a young airline with ambitious plans to expand globally and be a serious contender to EK within a decade.

I feel that the 4 main advantages of EK that I've detailed in this email are the higher volume of high yielding O&D pax bound for DXB from YYZ + lower costs of operations by using their B 773ERs compared to EY using their smaller A 345s + excellent connections to India in both directions and lastly the EK brand name recognition amongst the Arab & Indian subcontinent immigrant population in YYZ. These 4 advantages will be the main saviors of the airline's operations into the YYZ market.

I hope that all of you who have read this have enjoyed it, please feel free to write back with your feedback, comments etc as it shall be appreciated and replied back to asap.

Regards
Behramjee

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineEmirates773ER From Pakistan, joined Jun 2005, 1449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5344 times:

What a brilliant way to describe the EK and EY strategy to and from Canada! I could not have put it in better words myself.
Keep up the good work and welcome to my RU list!



The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13047 posts, RR: 100
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5139 times:
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First, very interesting. I like the analysis. Part of it shows the advantage of frequency. However, with EK's low CASM, I'll let them do their marketing.

However, I have one question, with EK being very limited in seats allowed to India, are they looking to expand the current bilateral? (Yea... it was expanded last year...)

Quoting Behramjee (Thread starter):
EK has the capability to offer cheaper fares than EY does out of YYZ to markets in the GCC, IKA KHI, BOM & BKK.

This shouldn't be discounted. Lower CASM can make up for a lot of lower RASM...

Quoting Behramjee (Thread starter):
Therefore, the advantage in the in-flight product category, I would say goes to EY !

A good review. However, for J, I would prefer pitch over width, but that is just my  twocents .

AI, due to the lack of modern aircraft, is going to have a tough time for the next few years. I would be more concerned with Jet expanding to YYZ than EK/EY if I were them.  Wink

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineGr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3100 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5104 times:

Wow! I doubt if EK and EY themselves have done such an indepth analysis of the route  smile 

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 2):
AI, due to the lack of modern aircraft, is going to have a tough time for the next few years.

Uhh......AI is on the verge of receiving brand new 777's...they are already flying the 772 to YYZ, which will probably be replaced by the 773 or the 772LR by next year latest.....


User currently offlineQatarA340 From Qatar, joined May 2006, 1822 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5057 times:

First of all, as usual Behramjee nice post!

Quoting Behramjee (Thread starter):
c) EK's "flying" costs from UAE to YYZ is lower than EY because its flying a 2 engined 354 seater B 773ER versus EY flying a slower, 4 engined, 286 seater Airbus A 340-600 (from July 3). By having cheaper operating costs and more capacity on offer, EK has the capability to offer cheaper fares than EY does out of YYZ to markets in the GCC, IKA KHI, BOM & BKK.

Well, I think that operating costs here in this situation is not an issue, since at ultra-long haul routes like this, the two planes are almost the same in operating costs.

Quoting Behramjee (Thread starter):
b) EK also has another advantage by flying their B 773ER to YYZ which offers 68 seats more per flight than EY does i.e. 204 seats per week more. Not only that but the B 773ER has the capability to carry 2-3 tons of more cargo per flight than EY's A 346.

Since the 77W has more seats, it should also have more cargo. Its also a more expensive plane to buy.

Quoting Behramjee (Thread starter):
EK's new J class has a 78 inch seat pitch and the seat reclines into a full flat bed...but its smaller than EY's!

I never knew EK's seats become flat 180 degrees!

Reguards,
QatarA340



لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25205 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5039 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Thread starter):
EK has the major advantage here because there is more O&D + high yielding premium traffic in J & F class bound for DXB than there is for AUH from YYZ.

How much O&D and high yeild premium traffic is there between Canada and the UAE? I think it's rather small, and much of the business traffic that exists is probably oil-related traffic from/to western Canada, especially YYC, where routings via LHR or FRA are about 700 miles shorter than via YYZ. And with EK/EY not being part of the major alliances, most YYC passengers will probably prefer to get their Star Alliance FFP miles on AC/LH via FRA or their oneworld miles on BA via LHR. And it's doubtful EK or EY will be able to negotiate very attractive add-on fares/prorates on connecting sectors in Canada beyond YYZ.

I expect the major impact of EK/EY services from YYZ will be a drop in fares/yield for traffic to/from India. And they'll probably carry some traffic (although it's a fairly significant backhaul) to Middle East destinations like BEY and CAI where there is significantly more O&D traffic to/from Canada than points in the Gulf.

And, as you mention, to points like BKK I can't see EK/EY getting much of the market unless their fares are much lower than carriers opeating much shorter routings via the Pacific, e.g. YYZ-HKG-BKK is about 1000 naut. mi. shorter than via DXB/AUH. And if EK/EY are happy carrying passengers 2000 miles round trip further at the same fares as carriers via the Pacific, their yields are going to be rather low.


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5015 times:

A nice analysis, but to me, the impact will be more widespread.

A lot of passengers go to the subcontinent via Europe, and the European carriers depend on India traffic to support their winter loads. When EY and EK go daily - and eventually the bilateral arrangements will come, perhaps in 2008 or 2009 - the impact on transatlantic capacity will be felt.

Air Canada will lose some transatlantic passengers for the same reason. Those are currently moving over LHR in particular to EK and QR. The financial impact won't be too severe because these is very cheap pro-rate traffic for AC, but it will hit Qatar, Gulf and possibly others and I am betting it might create a need for QR to get into YYZ with its own non-stop.

Jet's impact cannot be minimized into those two Indian markets where its flights originate. It's gotten some nice publicity in Toronto ahead of its arrival.

Finally, who will work most closely with Air Canada to gain access to the rest of Canada? Air India is angling for Star membership. QR is also said to have an eye on Star. One of these various Middle East and subcontinent carriers has to be a candidate for a code-share with AC and that will have a bearing on who succeeds with their Toronto flights and since capacity to the Middle East and India appears to be growing now faster than the market.


User currently offlineSR 103 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1740 posts, RR: 39
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4976 times:

Good post Behram, it certainly helped me pass the time while sitting in the lounge right now after my flight got canceled.

Lets see if Etihad is everything it is cracked up to be. I will certainly be comparing my experience to Emirates in my up coming trip report. For their sake, I hope they do better than the their fellow UAE based airline. My biggest complaint with Etihad is FFP and miles. I think they need to create some partnerships/code share agreements with some other airlines out there (I am hoping for Skyteam for selfish reasons).

SR 103


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13047 posts, RR: 100
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4896 times:
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Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 3):
Uhh......AI is on the verge of receiving brand new 777's...they are already flying the 772 to YYZ, which will probably be replaced by the 773 or the 772LR by next year latest.....

oops... but last I read they will not be getting enough 77W's to dedicate. Right now the 772 does a stop in Europe. While equivalent to EK/EY, a non-stop is a superior product offering.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 6):
Jet's impact cannot be minimized into those two Indian markets where its flights originate. It's gotten some nice publicity in Toronto ahead of its arrival.

 checkmark  Jet will change the market. In my opinion, due to their hub in BOM, they will have the greatest impact on the market.


And in a battle that includes a non stop... that could be a big win.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineEmirates777 From Tanzania, joined Feb 2000, 655 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4872 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Thread starter):

Lets start with the 2 main markets i.e. BOM & DEL. To the latter, both carriers offer excellent connections via their hubs but EY has an edge as it flies a SAME PLANE service using their latest A 346 from DEL via AUH to YYZ. On the other hand, EK too has a SAME PLANE service using a B 773ER from DEL but to JFK on a daily basis and not YYZ !

Your statement is incorrect. Emirates will definitely use the same plane that will operate the 3x weekly DXB-YYZ on the 3 connecting DXB-DEL services -- EK512 on Tue, Thu and Sat.

Rgds
Emirates777


User currently offlineMSYYZ From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 851 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4835 times:

Very good post , thanks .
What do you think about the impact of EY/EK presence in YYZ on European carriers that carry transfer passengers out of YYZ to the Middle East like (Cairo/Beirut/Amman/Damascus) along with (Addis Ababa/Khartoum/Nairobi and the rest of East Africa ) ?

Quoting Behramjee (Thread starter):
I also feel that EK will be a popular choice for Iranian immigrants flying back home due to a variety of reasons. They are guaranteed an authentic "halal" meal on board which is very important to them as EK is a "Muslim airline" where as the quality of halal food served by the EU carriers is nothing to write home about!

I do expect EK to carry a lot of Iranians but not at all because of this reason : The vast majority of the Iranian community in Canada have left Iran because they are opposing the Islamic regime that rules Iran , and don't really care for a (Halal) meal , on the opposite , I have met with a lot ( and I mean a lot ) of Iranians in Canada who will willingly drink alcohol and eat pork just for the sake of declaring that they are opposed to their Muslim regime and its teaching  

Quoting Behramjee (Thread starter):
A vast majority of expat Iranians residing in YYZ hold Canadian passports and would love the idea of breaking their journey in DXB for 2-3 days to see the sights enroute to Tehran or on the way back. Due to them possessing Canadian passports, they would get a UAE visa upon arrival at DXB

Absolutely .

[Edited 2007-06-20 00:23:21]


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User currently offlineTreeHillRavens From Malaysia, joined Jun 2007, 398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4721 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Thread starter):
EK's new J class has a 78 inch seat pitch and the seat reclines into a full flat bed

Actually the seat pitch is 60". It is a lie-flat seat. The seat reclines to a 78" long flat bed.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13047 posts, RR: 100
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4632 times:
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Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 11):
Actually the seat pitch is 60". It is a lie-flat seat. The seat reclines to a 78" long flat bed.

Oh... big difference.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4774 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4572 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
How much O&D and high yeild premium traffic is there between Canada and the UAE? I think it's rather small, and much of the business traffic that exists is probably oil-related traffic from/to western Canada, especially YYC,

there is quite a bit of J class traffic between YYZ and DXB...Canadian Govt too sends many personnel to DXB on J class tkts via FRA on AC-LH and via LHR on AC-EK ; this I know for a fact from the Advisor to the Canadian PM  Wink

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
most YYC passengers will probably prefer to get their Star Alliance FFP miles on AC/LH via FRA or their oneworld miles on

yes that maybe true...fyi, EK is part of DL, CO's and UAL's frequent flier programs but I dont expect many Canadians being members of those 3 programs. EK will nevertheless aggressively promote membership to their own Sky Wards program.

Quoting TreeHillRavens (Reply 11):
Actually the seat pitch is 60". It is a lie-flat seat. The seat reclines to a 78" long flat bed.

my mistake...according to the EK website their new J class for the entire B 777 fleet will see and I quote "Seats with a 72" pitch that recline to form 78" flat beds with ample room for taller passengers."...so the seat pitch is 72 inches that reclines to form a 78 inch or 6 ft 6 inch flat bed.

Quoting MSYYZ (Reply 10):

I do expect EK to carry a lot of Iranians but not at all because of this reason : The vast majority of the Iranian community in Canada have left Iran because they are opposing the Islamic regime that rules Iran , and don't really care for a (Halal) meal , on the opposite , I have met with a lot ( and I mean a lot ) of Iranians in Canada who will willingly drink alcohol and eat pork just for the sake of declaring that they are opposed to their Muslim regime and its teaching

alcohol yes...pork too? first time im hearing this!!!

Quoting MSYYZ (Reply 10):
What do you think about the impact of EY/EK presence in YYZ on European carriers that carry transfer passengers out of YYZ to the Middle East like (Cairo/Beirut/Amman/Damascus) along with (Addis Ababa/Khartoum/Nairobi and the rest of East Africa ) ?

to your above mentioned destinations, EK & EY dont have good connections via their hubs plus its faster flying the EU carriers via their hubs to these cities. Plus the EU carriers from YYZ offer much cheaper fares to Africa...for example in the off season you can fly KLM to NBO or DAR from YYZ/YUL for CAD 1050 all taxes inclusive!!!

Quoting Emirates777 (Reply 9):

Your statement is incorrect. Emirates will definitely use the same plane that will operate the 3x weekly DXB-YYZ on the 3 connecting DXB-DEL services -- EK512 on Tue, Thu and Sat.

from the timetable it seems otherwise...but glad to know this development by EK is taking place i.e. fighting fire with fire...good move though on EK's part : )

Quoting Sebring (Reply 6):

A lot of passengers go to the subcontinent via Europe, and the European carriers depend on India traffic to support their winter loads.

From YYZ & YUL in the winter, its India, BEY, Egypt & South Africa.


User currently offlineKHI747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 1615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4188 times:

Your assessment as far as EY vs EK on this specific route is concerned is very good BUT as far as i think both these airlines will do very well on their limited 3 X week flights to YYZ.Both airlines will have very high loads in all classes but their collective impact will be felt significantly by other airlines such as AC,BA,KL,LH which cater to transit traffic to Middle East/Southern Asia from YYZ.Another airline which will in all probability be knocked out of the game from YYZ is PIA.I dont see anyone from specially KHI taking PK over EY and EK specially in premium classes.

Personally if i had to wish the best to one airline here it would be Etihad.After flying with them through 2006 in their new J class i have the ultimate respect for this still heavily under rated airline.I make sure that everyone-even in my extended family and friends fly EY if the choice is there.Their J seats are better then most F classes out there.

I dont know what EK's new J and F look like but as far as J class goes-for the life of me i dont understand how they can get away with their ridiculously mediocre product throughout the vast majority of the network.The only answer is their unparalled connectivity through DXB-they really are king in that aspect.


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4774 posts, RR: 43
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4055 times:

I have lived in Toronto for 6 years now and the first time I heard a rumor that EK was coming to town was in 2003 and every year from there on, the travel agents would say its coming soon...but it never came. After signing the bilateral in 2002, five years on, EK is finally coming to Toronto.

What is truly amazing is to see, is the exceptionally positive response to this announcement not only from the travel agent community, but even from the local Indian subcontinent and Middle Eastern communities residing in YYZ both of which are extremely excited. The last time, I saw such excitement for new long haul route starting was when I was in KHI & BOM in July 2004 when EK launched JFK. This just goes to show what a 'cult like' following EK has created for itself and how well its brand name is recognized worldwide due to its excellent advertising campaigns.

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 14):
Another airline which will in all probability be knocked out of the game from YYZ is PIA.I dont see anyone from specially KHI taking PK over EY and EK specially in premium classes.

Absolutely correct !!!

Quoting KHI747 (Reply 14):
I dont know what EK's new J and F look like but as far as J class goes-for the life of me i dont understand how they can get away with their ridiculously mediocre product throughout the vast majority of the network.

To be fair, it depends totally on which aircraft you fly on EK.

If you fly their A 332s, A 343s, B 773As (non ERs), B 772s (non ER), their J and F class on board is nothing great but if you fly their B 773ERs and A 345s then its good.

EK have announced last weekend that their entire A 332, B 777-200ER and older B 773ER fleet of aircraft will be getting a major facelift in all 3 cabins along the same lines as their A 345 and newly delivered B 773ERs.


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4774 posts, RR: 43
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3684 times:

AMD flights have been loaded on to SABRE :

7EK 538 F4 A0 J7 C0 Y9 W9 M9 B9 K9 H9 DXBAMD 2255 0310‡1 332 0
Q9 L9 T0 V0

7EK 539 F4 A0 J7 C0 Y9 W9 M9 B9 K9 AMDDXB 0425 0610 332 0
H9 Q9 L9 T0 V0

These flights will greatly help their YYZ and JFK loads...especially the former as from YYZ no one offers one stop flights to AMD unless u take 9W via LHR which involves a 10 hour transit at LHR.


User currently offlineYOWza From South Africa, joined Jul 2005, 4883 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3606 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Thread starter):
in flight product

While you have provisionally given EY the nod ahead of EK (and I agree with that) certain picky travellers will know EY is inconsistent in the product it provides in flight and may throw them off.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
I think it's rather small,

Actually there is a sizeable Canadian population in the Gulf. About 7000 registered Canadians in Dubai alone.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
much of the business traffic that exists is probably oil-related traffic from/to western Canada,

Wrong. The Canadian presence in the Gulf is widesrpead. CAE has a huge presence out there as does a number of firms staffing Accounting and teaching personnel.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 6):
A lot of passengers go to the subcontinent via Europe,

Agreed but EY and EK can offer them a means of doing so without need for a transit visa.

Here's my question, with EK expanding further and further afield with direct service, bypassing Europe altogether will this impact their loads from their European destinations? Will LHR and LGW loads suffer much (if at all)

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3578 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):
Quoting KHI747 (Reply 14):
I dont know what EK's new J and F look like but as far as J class goes-for the life of me i dont understand how they can get away with their ridiculously mediocre product throughout the vast majority of the network.

To be fair, it depends totally on which aircraft you fly on EK.

....if you read his posts Behramjee...the only thing is he does is bash PK as if he's got some personal vendetta against them....

..for the price/service....there is basically no carrier which can compete with PK......yes, carriers have better service, but their J-class ticket is also much more expensive also....

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):
Quoting KHI747 (Reply 14):
Another airline which will in all probability be knocked out of the game from YYZ is PIA.I dont see anyone from specially KHI taking PK over EY and EK specially in premium classes.

Absolutely correct !!!

I'll have to respectfully disagree here Behramjee.....PK is fortunate on this route in that they have nonstop service..and that's a big plus...one doesn't have to stop and change planes (and deal with security) at DXB/AUH......

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):

What is truly amazing is to see, is the exceptionally positive response to this announcement not only from the travel agent community, but even from the local Indian subcontinent and Middle Eastern communities residing in YYZ both of which are extremely excited. The last time, I saw such excitement for new long haul route starting was when I was in KHI & BOM in July 2004 when EK launched JFK. This just goes to show what a 'cult like' following EK has created for itself and how well its brand name is recognized worldwide due to its excellent advertising campaigns.

.....EK does that strange "cult" following as you say......I've noticed part of the problem with PK is that its not people don't want to fly with PK, they just see them as too unreliable right now....I'm hoping the new management (as well as the Pakistani government) finally decide to take PK seriously..

IF PK become privatised, or partially privatised, then PK can once again become a formidable competitor...until then, it will remain the way it is....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4774 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3490 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
I'll have to respectfully disagree here Behramjee.....PK is fortunate on this route in that they have nonstop service..and that's a big plus...one doesn't have to stop and change planes (and deal with security) at DXB/AUH......

Hi,

Yes PIA has an advantage by flying from KHI nonstop to YYZ but only once a week where as the other 2 flights are via Northern Pakistan. And from LHE/ISB, flights are also once a week only.

But as you know the PAK-North America-PAK market is very price sensitive especially with pax buying tkts in PAK and that is the main the problem with PIA because for example, their fares to YYZ (from PAK) are approximately RS 15-17,000 more than EK/EY...in J class from KHI to YYZ, PIA is RS 40,000 more than EY.

From YYZ to PAK, their fares are approx $ 70-100 more than EY/EK which is fine.

Also remember EY from Northern Pakistan has 3 weekly flights from LHE/ISB via AUH to YYZ compared to PK's 1 only + EY allows 32KG baggage allowance where as PIA allows 28KG only.

[Edited 2007-06-25 16:47:19]

User currently offlineDesiguy2447 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3406 times:

EK or EY who ever begins a flight to Punjab (Amritsar) will make a ton of money as a large number of Indians who live in Toronto are from Punjab, and a flight from AUH or DXB will work great for either airlines. The other airline offering the service from Canada is AI to Amritsar.

User currently offlineTreeHillRavens From Malaysia, joined Jun 2007, 398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3292 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):
If you fly their A 332s, A 343s, B 773As (non ERs), B 772s (non ER), their J and F class on board is nothing great but if you fly their B 773ERs and A 345s then its good.

Actually that also depends on which 77W you are on. All the older 77W (both 2-class & 3-class) have only 50" pitch in J. Only the newer 3-class 77W (dubbed the B777-300ER ULR) have 60" pitch in J. The newer 2-class 77W (also dubbed B777-300ER ULR) still offer only 50" in J.

The seat pitch on EK 345 JC is 55".


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4774 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 3191 times:

Quoting Desiguy2447 (Reply 20):
EK or EY who ever begins a flight to Punjab (Amritsar) will make a ton of money as a large number of Indians who live in Toronto are from Punjab, and a flight from AUH or DXB will work great for either airlines. The other airline offering the service from Canada is AI to Amritsar.

Yes if EY or EK flew into ATQ, they indeed would get a lot of feeder traffic from their YYZ, JFK and UK bound flights as well as O&D from the UAE itself. However, neither airline chooses to launch an Indian destination just because of providing feeder traffic to YYZ.

Also remember, ATQ bound traffic from North America is low yielding even though loads and demand is good. No one from UK and North America can compete (fare wise) against the Central Asian and Russian carriers on the ATQ route!
For example, from YYZ in the low season, there are two Soviet airlines that offer $ 800+tax r/t fare to ATQ...compared to $ 1100+ $ 360 tax on Air India who has a more convenient one stop flight via BHX 5 times a week!


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25205 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3122 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
..for the price/service....there is basically no carrier which can compete with PK......yes, carriers have better service, but their J-class ticket is also much more expensive also....



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
.....EK does that strange "cult" following as you say......I've noticed part of the problem with PK is that its not people don't want to fly with PK, they just see them as too unreliable right now....I'm hoping the new management (as well as the Pakistani government) finally decide to take PK seriously..

One thing that no doubt handicaps PK in generating higher yields and selling more business traffic, especially to non-Islamic passengers, is the fact that they don't serve alcohol. Carriers in that group, including KU, SV, IR, often have the lowest fares. And it's probably not coincidental that the "dry" carriers are much less progressive overall than carriers like EK, EY, QR and others that don't apply strict Islamic laws with respect to their service.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3013 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 19):

But as you know the PAK-North America-PAK market is very price sensitive especially with pax buying tkts in PAK and that is the main the problem with PIA because for example, their fares to YYZ (from PAK) are approximately RS 15-17,000 more than EK/EY...in J class from KHI to YYZ, PIA is RS 40,000 more than EY.

...wow...I never knew that... Wow!

I know from USA-Pakistan, no carrier can match PK on their J-Class price over a long duration in time..

Next time I go to KHI (in August), I'll be doing some checking...

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 19):

From YYZ to PAK, their fares are approx $ 70-100 more than EY/EK which is fine.

Also remember EY from Northern Pakistan has 3 weekly flights from LHE/ISB via AUH to YYZ compared to PK's 1 only + EY allows 32KG baggage allowance where as PIA allows 28KG only.

True..I agree that YYZ-KHI is only once/week..but even if one wants to go to KHI and take the ISB/LHE flight, its still a bit easier than dealing with AUH and/or DXB.....

Personally, I've decided to move my business from EK to PK... biggrin .......

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):
One thing that no doubt handicaps PK in generating higher yields and selling more business traffic, especially to non-Islamic passengers, is the fact that they don't serve alcohol. Carriers in that group, including KU, SV, IR, often have the lowest fares. And it's probably not coincidental that the "dry" carriers are much less progressive overall than carriers like EK, EY, QR and others that don't apply strict Islamic laws with respect to their service.

....I've read discussions on this, and from what I've been able to gather, most pax dont' care about the alcohol, but do want reliability..and that's PK"s biggest problem...interestingly enough, PK allowed BYOB on board....but this practice had ended either in the late '70's or early '80s....



"Up the Irons!"
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