Joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3128 posts, RR: 4 Posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2674 times:
Source: Telegraaf.nl (in Dutch) / Arnold Burlage
Today, Dutch newspaper Telegraaf mentions that tonight a decision about the future of Martinair might be made, as the shareholders (KLM and Maersk) are together to discuss what to do with the loss-making airline.
A few scenarios are sketched:
- Liquidation of all european passenger flights
- Transferring all european passenger flights to Transavia.com
- Transferring intercontinental flights and freight to KLM
- A consortium, partly composed of travel agencies, wants to buy (parts of) Martinair
Sources have already indicated that in case Martinair will be completely integrated into KLM/Transavia, the European and Dutch antitrust committees will need to give their permission.
From a personal (consumer) point of view, I think it's not a good idea if all activities will be integrated into KLM, as the airline will get a huge stronghold on the Dutch market. However, I also have doubts about how a stand-alone MP can survive in the current market. I'm also surprised TUI/ArkeFly isn't mentioned as a candidate to buy parts.
All together, I think we do have to fear for the Martinair brand
TR From UK - England, joined May 2001, 952 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2629 times:
Maersk is more than ready to sell its 50% stake in Martinair. Actually Maersk have wanted this since the day they took over P&O Nedlloyd (who owned the 50% stake). However that problem is in fact the European and Dutch antitrust committees whom is not about to give permission to a sale of the stake to Air France/KLM as this defacto will mean that the airline will get monopole on the Dutch air travel market.
Glareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1284 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2585 times:
Quoting Joost (Thread starter): All together, I think we do have to fear for the Martinair brand
It is inevitable. I think the LCC market was invented for the Dutch who only care for low fare. Now MP is a traditional holiday charter airline. One with a good reputation though. But in real life, people are happy if the travel agency uses Martinair but are not selecting on that. Nowadays there is a lot of LCC competition on the typical holiday market not only from within The Netherlands, but also from Germany. Last month I took a short spring holiday in the south of Spain and I flew Air Berlin from DUS. More than 50% on board was Dutch! Split the business: charters to Transavia or ArkeFly, freighter business to KLM. IMO there is no other way to save those jobs.
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
Joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3128 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2518 times:
Quoting Glareskin (Reply 2): But in real life, people are happy if the travel agency uses Martinair but are not selecting on that.
Indeed. And in my experience, Martinair is considered as a good and safe airline for your holiday, but no better or worse than Transavia or ArkeFly; IMO passengers that fly one of the charters in a package-deal holiday, are equally happen with either of the carriers. And I have the impression that in a package deal, the airline is such a small part compared to the hotel, that it will hardly attract people. They should make a product that appeals to travel agencies, and that is especially price, schedule and reliability of operating the schedule.
StarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2374 times:
Outside of Holland.. does Martinair do any advertising ?
Maybe thats the reason for failure.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
Joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3128 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2290 times:
Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 4): Outside of Holland.. does Martinair do any advertising ?
Maybe thats the reason for failure.
I thought that they do some advertising in Florida and Canada, but I'm not sure. However, there are quite some more reasons for the problems the face:
- 4 different business in one (small) company: European charter, long-haul charter, long-haul scheduled, freight
- mixed and relatively old fleet. They have 21 aircraft, divided over 5 types (742, 744, M11, 763, 319)
- difficult position of shareholders (Maersk actually wants to get rid of it, but can't sell to the prefered party (KLM); KLM owns 50% of the airline, but competes with it on some routes on the other hand, and it also competes with HV on some routes; difficult to give direction).
They try to serve all kind of markets on a very small scope, whereas their competition either has a focus on a certain market (and is - from a business point of view - better performing), or has a way larger scale. Transavia operates a 28 strong fleet, whereas MP only has 4 aircraft for European operations.
Sources also say that Martinairs has an very opportunistic management style, and lacks a well-defined long-term view. It's a pity to lose an airline with such a history, but I guess there is not much of a choice. Except however, when the travel agent consortium buys the long-haul charter branch.
Says enough for me. Seen too many false/inaccurate reports from him to take him seriously. He's even supposed to be 'the aviation guy' at the Telegraaf. Just an example, on the frontpage after the KQ 738 crash it said 'KLM/Kenya Airways 737 crashed in africa'.
Quoting Joost (Reply 5): They have 21 aircraft, divided over 5 types (742, 744, M11, 763, 319)
They are 320's . Furthermore they have some MD-11CF's as well which can be converted to passenger use, which is unused, adding extra dead weight.
The only real option I see is to sell the passenger business in 2 parts, shorthaul (HV or Arke) and longhaul (Arke), and the freight division to KL. Don't know where that would leave their maintenance ops tho.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
Joost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3128 posts, RR: 4 Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2129 times:
Quoting JRadier (Reply 6): Says enough for me. Seen too many false/inaccurate reports from him to take him seriously.
That's why I mentioned his name However, indications on the situation at Martinair and that KLM and Maersk want to work out a deal, are not new. Basically, the only thing he says is that the meeting is tonight. And actually, whether the meeting is today or tomorrow, is not even relevant
Quoting JRadier (Reply 6): The only real option I see is to sell the passenger business in 2 parts, shorthaul (HV or Arke) and longhaul (Arke),
I'd prefer both to be going to Arke, to get some competition in the market. Otherwise, it will be all KLM-controlled.
Quoting JRadier (Reply 6): Don't know where that would leave their maintenance ops tho.
KLM E&M is said to be actively looking for technical people for their E&M operations, maybe they can take it over? Would seem good for the employees at least. And it's less monopolistic than flying passengers.
JRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4598 posts, RR: 51 Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2034 times:
Quoting Joost (Reply 7): That's why I mentioned his name Wink
Might want to mention his reputation as well, as non-dutchies might not know who he is.
Quoting Joost (Reply 7): However, indications on the situation at Martinair and that KLM and Maersk want to work out a deal, are not new. Basically, the only thing he says is that the meeting is tonight.
Basically his particular writing style, blowing a lot of non-news out proportion.
Quoting Joost (Reply 7): I'd prefer both to be going to Arke, to get some competition in the market. Otherwise, it will be all KLM-controlled.
On the other hand, KLM might want to put it in-house with HV in order to decrease competition. Anti-trust might prevent that from happening tho.
Quoting Joost (Reply 7): KLM E&M is said to be actively looking for technical people for their E&M operations, maybe they can take it over? Would seem good for the employees at least. And it's less monopolistic than flying passengers.
That's something I didn't even think of. Would make a lot of sense for KLM to get that part of MP, as E&M seems to be doing very well.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
Airbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 52 Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1789 times:
OK,
it seems the decisions has been made now.
MP will continue to operate under full KL(/AF) management, but the MP brandname will remain.
Although, this information is given at a internal conference by the MP board of directors.
More info to follow I guess,... but will this also mean the face out of the old B763's and make way for an A332-order?
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
MauriceB From Netherlands, joined Aug 2004, 2477 posts, RR: 28 Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1758 times:
Quote: OK,
it seems the decisions has been made now.
MP will continue to operate under full KL(/AF) management, but the MP brandname will remain.
Although, this information is given at a internal conference by the MP board of directors.
More info to follow I guess,... but will this also mean the face out of the old B763's and make way for an A332-order?
Well to be honest, i don't think MP wil order any new aircraft... I know it was discussed couple of weeks ago, but that was before they talked about a full merger. Ofcourse i would like to see Martinair operating pax flights, but it doesn't make sense for a company to have 3 different airlines running with the same business on the same airport.
What would make sense is this:
-KLM all revenue pax service+ Cargo (which makes AF-KL a real big cargo airline with 4 747's and 6 MD-11's Extra)
-Transavia all the low cost and charter flights+ getting the 767's from MP for long-haul flights.
On the other hand it could be that MP will be the Cargo airline of AF-KL, and so KLM might move its 3 (4) 747-400F's to MP, so that each airline can focuse on what it is good at!
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31119 posts, RR: 73 Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1576 times:
Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 4): Outside of Holland.. does Martinair do any advertising ?
Yes, they advertise a lot in Miami.
Quoting Humberside (Reply 12): Could KL take over the AMS-MIA route? And what about MIA/MCO-San Jose?
San Jose would be as good as gone, most likely. I'm pretty confident KLM would take over the Miami-Amsterdam route if this were to happen. The main reason KLM did poorly on MIA-AMS in the past was because of Martinair. They have been around for ages in Miami, and are a local favourite for cheap fares to Europe. They killed KLM's yields. Miami is a profitable destination for Martinair's operations, and their largest operationg (cargo + passenger) outside of Amsterdam. They employ over 70 people in South Florida.
KL could, but they should follow other carriers like DE and IB suit, and end the intermediate stop in the US if they do intend to fly to SJO again. IB closed its Central America hub due to the new immigration rules in the US and replaced its MIA service with direct flights from MAD (of which SJO is due to become a daily nonstop both ways), while DE ended the stopover in MCO and replaced it initially with HAV and now with SDQ.
KL could route the flight to SJO with an MD-11 either through BON, CUR or AUA, even though the Antilles are a little bit out of the way, but then again, that's the only constellation I can think of if KL wants to restart direct services to SJO with an intermediate stop both way, as they used to do.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31119 posts, RR: 73 Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1435 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 14): KL could, but they should follow other carriers like DE and IB suit, and end the intermediate stop in the US if they do intend to fly to SJO again. IB closed its Central America hub due to the new immigration rules in the US and replaced its MIA service with direct flights from MAD (of which SJO is due to become a daily nonstop both ways), while DE ended the stopover in MCO and replaced it initially with HAV and now with SDQ.
More than half of Martinair's MIA-SJO traffic is local. That is really the only reason they keep flying it.
KL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 750 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1413 times:
From the Dutch press:
Martinair will remain operating long-haul passenger flights and cargo, preferably as a company fully owned by Air France-KLM. Martinair will suspend all European services during in 2008. Furthemore they will critically look at all other businesses of the company and sell parts when deemed necessary. So not much changes, though a number of people in the European ops will loose their jobs.
LTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 51 Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1396 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 15): More than half of Martinair's MIA-SJO traffic is local. That is really the only reason they keep flying it.
Point taken, but what about the possibilities of longhauls to SJO in general for the Air France-KLM Group? I mean, it has been mentioned that AF may start up CDG-SJO some time soon, so there must be a market for them.
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31119 posts, RR: 73 Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1371 times:
Quoting LTU932 (Reply 17): Point taken, but what about the possibilities of longhauls to SJO in general for the Air France-KLM Group? I mean, it has been mentioned that AF may start up CDG-SJO some time soon, so there must be a market for them.
Agreed, there is some potential to develop San Jose as a non-stop, but I'm on the fence as to if KLM/AF would want to do it from Amsterdam. I think that there is a good shot that AF will set up shot at PTY or SJO within two years, regardless of the MP/AMS situation.
Kappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 18 Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1269 times:
Quoting JRadier (Reply 6): Seen too many false/inaccurate reports from him to take him seriously.
Quoting JRadier (Reply 8): Basically his particular writing style, blowing a lot of non-news out proportion.
What do you expect from de Telegraaf? Hardly a serious newspaper, more like a tabloid..
Quoting KL577 (Reply 16): Martinair will remain operating long-haul passenger flights and cargo, preferably as a company fully owned by Air France-KLM. Martinair will suspend all European services during in 2008. Furthemore they will critically look at all other businesses of the company and sell parts when deemed necessary. So not much changes, though a number of people in the European ops will loose their jobs.
Isn't this still dependent on the EU Commission ruling? Are they allowed to take over MP now?
Quoting Joost (Reply 7): I'd prefer both to be going to Arke, to get some competition in the market. Otherwise, it will be all KLM-controlled.
Agreed, but they both need new aircraft. IMHO the 787-8 would be perfect for them.
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. Furthermore they have some MD-11CF's as well which can be converted to passenger use, which is unused, adding extra dead weight. 
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