Porter Airlines received official clearance by the US Dot to provide scheduled service out of Toronto City Airport.
Initially Porter will fly to Newark. In addition, future destinations includes: New York, Chicago, Boston, Washington, D.C., Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Cincinnati and Cleveland.
TOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3221 posts, RR: 4 Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8169 times:
Sweet, I'd love to fly a Dash into the Island Airport!
ERAUgrad02 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1227 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8098 times:
They'll def. need those additional -400Q's... Cool work.
YOW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7934 times:
Quoting LouA340 (Reply 4): Just wondering though, with all the expansion, can Toronto City Airport handle all of the traffic?
With a bit more terminal expansion it sure can. Remember back in the 80s, at the peak, City Express pumped through over 400,000 pax a year, decades before all the improvments that have already been made.
Pacifica From Canada, joined May 2006, 149 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7905 times:
Quoting LouA340 (Reply 4): Thats great for Porter.
Just wondering though, with all the expansion, can Toronto City Airport handle all of the traffic?
There isn't a lot of room for expansion due to the obvious physical constraints at City Centre, but I believe there is currently space on the tarmac for about 4 Q400s to park at the same time. That will basically be the maximum ever available, since any further expansion would take away space from general aviation or need to be on the other side of the runways (thus creating new issues like buses, etc).
I'm not too sure how many passengers Porter's current terminal can handle, but again space is tight so unless they build upwards (see add another floor) there isn't much they can do with that either unless they demolish the old historic terminal.
So to answer your question, whatever Porter can do with about 4 gates and their current terminal will be the limiting reactant. But for sure they should be able to expand some, as they currently only fly a maximum of 20 flights per day (weekdays) with much less on the weekends. I'd presume that with the current arrangement Porter should have no problem doubling that to 40 flights per day, but any more and I'd think it'd be cutting it pretty close to capacity.
Maybe someone with more knowledge than I can expand on the situation?
ERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6626 posts, RR: 19 Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7905 times:
Hmm.. I wonder which Washington and which Chicago?
BWI vs IAD (United would have a fit) vs DCA (US Airways would have a fit)
ORD (American and United would have a fit) vs MDW vs GYY vs RFD
YOW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7860 times:
Quoting Pacifica (Reply 6): There isn't a lot of room for expansion due to the obvious physical constraints at City Centre, but I believe there is currently space on the tarmac for about 4 Q400s to park at the same time. That will basically be the maximum ever available, since any further expansion would take away space from general aviation or need to be on the other side of the runways (thus creating new issues like buses, etc).
I once briefly saw YTZ's master plan and it showed with some tinkering that up to 12 Q400s can eventually be handled along with a much enlarged terminal. I think it involved relocating a couple of the GA guys to another spot on the airfield.
Pnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2046 posts, RR: 12 Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7844 times:
There are no preclearance facilities in Toronto City Centre Airport for US Customs so that may limit the airports they will fly to, especially DC. For example the only non-US Airline that serves DCA is Air Canada. Customers for Reagan/National preclear in Toronto and are subject to extra security. If that has changed I would love to hear from someone. I find BWI somewhat inconvenient for DC proper. My guess would be they would fly to Dulles. The service I have got on the US Airways feeders to DCA was horrid so competition will be good.
ERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6626 posts, RR: 19 Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7804 times:
Using the great circle mapper, I found some interesting things about the 500nm...
RDU is within (465 nm), but CLT is out (509nm)
SDF is in (436 nm), but BNA is out (561 nm)
RFD is in (436 nm) but STL is out (576 nm)
So it looks like everything East of the Mississippi; North of Raleigh/Greensboro and North of Kentucky is a possibility..
Pacifica From Canada, joined May 2006, 149 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7767 times:
Quoting YOW (Reply 8): I once briefly saw YTZ's master plan and it showed with some tinkering that up to 12 Q400s can eventually be handled along with a much enlarged terminal. I think it involved relocating a couple of the GA guys to another spot on the airfield.
Interesting. Do you have an electronic copy of this master plan that I might be able to get my hands on?
In that case then it seems Porter has a lot of expansion room out of City Centre.
CitrusCritter From Palau, joined May 2007, 1072 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7755 times:
Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 7): Hmm.. I wonder which Washington and which Chicago?
DCA is obviously preferable, but unless there will be pre-clearance, it's a no-go.
Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 9): I find BWI somewhat inconvenient for DC proper
BWI is actually more convenient than Dulles at present, especially during peak traffic times. BWI is serviced by MARC and Amtrak and arrive at Union Station within 30 minutes depending on the train. Dulles takes a good hour taking the bus/Metro combination and something similar depending on traffic conditions. When I lived in DC and flew frequently, my queue for picking flights was always DCA, BWI, and then IAD.
ERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6626 posts, RR: 19 Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7723 times:
Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 12): When I lived in DC and flew frequently, my queue for picking flights was always DCA, BWI, and then IAD.
Here.. here.. I live in the DC Metro area now.. and unless you live on I-66 or Northern Virginia.. you go DCA or BWI.. Dulles is just a pain to get to, a pain to use, and a pain in general.. DCA is obviously the best choice because you can just hop on the metro directly outside the terminal.. BWI is 2nd best because traffic is not AS horrible as it is on the Dulles Toll Road or 66..
JoePatroni From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 199 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7669 times:
Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 7): BWI vs IAD (United would have a fit) vs DCA (US Airways would have a fit)
ORD (American and United would have a fit)
Why would USAirways have a fit?? They don't even fly to Toronto from DCA. AC does- They're the ones who would have a fit.
Also at ORD, Don't forget about AC here too. AA, UA and AC all have about the same frequencies between ORD and YYZ.
Tornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7647 times:
Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 7):
ORD (American and United would have a fit) vs MDW vs GYY vs RFD
VPZ would be more worthwhile than RFD (not to mention a shorter flight time), and they'd be flying to an airport of their namesake. I'd love to see the Porter County wannabe yuppies get all wound up if something commercial came to VPZ, but maybe they could be tricked since the airline is named Porter. (kidding of course)
More seriously, would they need to acquire slots at ORD like Jet Blue needed to do awhile back? Or since they're int'l are they exempt from such things? Likewise they'd need gates with int'l facilities regardless of where they go in Chicagoland, who has open int'l gates? Does GYY or RFD even have the facilities?
FLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7488 times:
Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter): Initially Porter will fly to Newark. In addition, future destinations includes: New York, Chicago, Boston, Washington, D.C., Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Cincinnati and Cleveland.
IMHO, I don't think any of those are likely except MDW. Looking at the Porter model, they are a classy, high service airline that centres around two key ideals: quality, and convenience. Thus I would actually think Porter would do this...
New York EWR (already announced) and JFK (at a later date in order to tap the market from the other side of Manhattan)
Chicagoland ORD (if slots can be attained and space in T5 is available) or MDW (if the former is not feasible)
Washington IAD (business travellers don't often take public transit, so IAD is the right choice as it is convenient in terms of taxi/limo service; btw as earlier stated it is true unless a preclearance facility is built in YTZ, then DCA and LGA cannot be served)
FLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7431 times:
Quoting Pacifica (Reply 19): Washington IAD (business travellers don't often take public transit, so IAD is the right choice as it is convenient in terms of taxi/limo service; btw as earlier stated it is true unless a preclearance facility is built in YTZ, then DCA and LGA cannot be served)
Have you had the chance to take the marathon trip from IAD into the city? If time is money, you burned a lot of cash...
Quoting Pacifica (Reply 19): Looking at the Porter model, they are a classy, high service airline that centres around two key ideals: quality, and convenience.
Are you not familiar with the connections to and from White Plains to Manhattan, or the amount of business that is in Westchester County? Honestly, do you think that Porter would last against the 12 AC flights in the market?
Quoting Pacifica (Reply 19): New York EWR (already announced) and JFK (at a later date in order to tap the market from the other side of Manhattan)
Delta Connection already serves JFK-YYZ 4x per day
I think Porter is a great idea, I only question the use of such saturated delay prone US airports!
A330323X From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 3039 posts, RR: 47 Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7425 times:
Quoting CRJ 900 (Reply 17): As far as I know, AC is the only foreign carrier ALLOWED to fly into DCA.
That's incorrect. The U.S.-Canada bilateral provides for all Canadian carriers to be treated equally to American carriers for access into DCA and LGA.
The issue here would be preclearance facilities, which YTZ does not yet have.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
Pacifica From Canada, joined May 2006, 149 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7365 times:
Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 20):
Have you had the chance to take the marathon trip from IAD into the city? If time is money, you burned a lot of cash...
Well since there is no preclearance in YTZ, then DCA is absolutely out of the question. Now if driving time from BWI to downtown and the major business centres is, for the most part, shorter, then I stand corrected and perhaps BWI is the right choice. I was previously, however, under the impression that IAD was more convenient than BWI for driving alone (not public transit). But like I said, if that is not the case it is my mistake.
Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 20):
Are you not familiar with the connections to and from White Plains to Manhattan, or the amount of business that is in Westchester County? Honestly, do you think that Porter would last against the 12 AC flights in the market?
Somehow if there were honestly this many 'connections' like you say there are at HPN to other business centres, etc, then why don't I see AC flying there from their fortress hub of YYZ with real planes? If big ole' AC can only make it work with little 19 seaters, that tells you something about the market. Which brings me to this...
Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 20): Delta Connection already serves JFK-YYZ 4x per day
Thus, if LGA cannot be served (lack of preclearance, see above) and HPN is out of the question, that leaves JFK as really the best choice to serve the eastern New York city area. Since PD is already going to serve EWR (which will serve the west New York city area and New Jersey), JFK with a couple flights per day is still a good bet because Long Island is still a big business centre...plus you give businessmen two different options if they are travelling to Manhattan (read businessmen like flexibility and choice).
MCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8553 posts, RR: 14 Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7323 times:
I'm so happy. Porter seems to be wonderful and I hope people will fly from the US on them.
BravoGolf From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 535 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7302 times:
So how hard would it be to get preclearence at YTZ?? If they start with a good number of flights, I would think it should be not too difficult. Does the new terminal have room for preclearence?
25 YOWza: YYZ is FAAAR from YTZ which is just outside the CBD. YOWza
26 Pnwtraveler: Good point I never took either but drove when I was flew into BWI. I always flew into DCA and loved hopping on the Metro. Except the one time my cell
27 FLYACYYZ: 7 of the 9 sound like feasible possibilites. CVG - Not a chance against DL/Comair who has a strangle hold on the market with major hub connectivity.
28 ChrisA330: Highly unlikely that YTZ will ever get preclearance. YHZ just got that this past year. Most likely one of the reasons they are flying into EWR vs LGA
29 EnviroTO: It is 27 km to YYZ. The same as the distance to Penn Central from Newark Airport. That isn't far.
30 YOWza: While 27km is not that far, in traffic it can seem like a lifetime and can be tricky to time. YOWza
31 Aamr: While preclearance on the Canadian side IS an issue, why is DCA even in this conversation? DCA is completely slot restricted where each new route mus
32 Tennisace: Try this link from the Toronto Port Authority website, but be warned it is a big file.....Airport Feasibility Study for the CYTZ from 2001. Look arou
33 N1120A: There is a big difference between within perimeter and outside perimeter slots.
34 EWRandMDW: Penn Center is in Philadelphia I believe, about 140 km from Newark Airport. If you mean Penn Station, the one in Newark is about 5 km from the airport
35 CitrusCritter: Also, wouldn't Porter get commuter slots? I believe during regular ops that most commuters land on 15/33, as I've witnessed a number of turboprops an
36 YOW: A few future Porter destinations will be a bit outside the 500 nm range. They'll eventually be in YQT for sure and it's 503 nm.. New York: HPN - no w
37 A330323X: I think the only people who might be thinking about flying YTZ-DCA in the event of preclearance would be US, who are also the only ones with definite
38 YOWza: I really hope the artists renderings you mentioned in the linked pdf come to fruition. Toronto is a great city and so deserves a great business orien
39 N1120A: They said Penn Central, which was the name of the merged New York Central and Penn Railroads that combined and owned Penn Station prior to Amtrak. Tw
40 YOW: Yes indeed and that's where the master plan comes into play.
41 Pacifica: Thanks for the link! Very interesting plans indeed. It seems that as long as Porter can find demand, they will have no trouble expanding their operat
42 HanginOut: They also preclear in Montreal as AC flies to both YYZ and YUL from DCA (they should fly to YOW but that is a totally different rant saved for anothe
43 Drgmobile: I think the only people who might be thinking about flying YTZ-DCA in the event of preclearance would be US, who are also the only ones with definite
44 YOW: I wouldn't mind seeing US fly YOW-DCA at some point down the road. While not an official US hub, it is a major US focus city with lots of connecting
45 CuriousFlyer: When will AC have some serious competition to NYC? From NYC to YUL in particular, there is only DL and CO facing AC, and with a terrible, unfrequent s
46 A330323X: Ever? I hate to break it to you, but US Airways Express has *already* served YTZ in the fairly recent past, with CommutAir having served it in 1998-9
47 Olympus69: It's not number of flights that matters it's passengers. If Porter has 20 flights with an average of 30 passengers that's only 600 a day. I don't kno
48 CF188A: I find it amazing that after all the problems caused by Air Canada, Westjet, etc. to delay porters expansion... they still manage to push through. I h
49 Tornado82: So Porter is going to average approximately 40% LF's throughout the history of their service? Your formula is a bit flawed there
50 Pacifica: To be clear, I'm not saying that sometime down the road once Porter has established itself in the transborder market and passenger throughput at YTZ
51 Tornado82: Bets on Porter codesharing with any US Airlines? Their first stop seems to be Newark, so CO?
52 Viscount724: YHZ has had transborder service for about 50 years (initially only AC to BOS a couple of times a day) but preclearance was only implemented last Octo
53 NorthStarDC4M: This was rumored back when they applied for EWR, even SkyTeam membership. I think it's a little off the radar honestly, Porter doesn't gain anything
54 Greenair727: For Cleveland--CLE or BKL? CLE has existing competition with CO and AC. BKL would make more sense for this reason--also as it matches Porter's Toront
55 Drgmobile: ... US Airways Express has *already* served YTZ in the fairly recent past, with CommutAir having served it in 1998-99 on a HPN-SYR-YTZ routing. And I'
56 ThirteenRight: IMHO I think it would be mutually beneficial of Porter began YTZ-JFK and codeshared with JetBlue. JetBlue would have access to the NYC-Toronto market
57 YOWza: That actually makes a tremendous amount of sense. I would love to see that. I know I would cerainly prefer YTZ-JFK-LAX on B6/PD than YYZ-LAX on AC YO
58 YOW: PD's loads won't be 30 pax per flight over the long-term or the route won't last. Even on the ultra-efficient Q400, they're still going to want loads
59 Pnwtraveler: Porter definitely has the advantage with lower landing fees at TCCA. The $40 or so fare by airline limosine/cab to YYZ adds to Porters advantage. Once
60 Arrow: Why? Unless it's a significant price issue, why would you spurn a non-stop to LAX for a connection at JFK, which is in the opposite direction to boot
61 JoePatroni: Totally agreed. That sounds like no fun. Then what happens when those PM Thunderstorms start lining up? JFK will have GDPs and Ground Stops making fo
62 HanginOut: I've never understood why the YOW flights to Washington aren't to DCA. With all of the bureaucrats flying back and forth between the two capitals thi
63 YOW: I'd say there are 3 main reasons: 1) No slots at DCA for AC to obtain. Which is why if DCA does happen down the road, I think it will be with US. 2)
64 Falcon84: Not true. COEX's fequency hasn't changed to YYZ at least since 9/11. We offer 4 nonstops a day CLE-YYZ on most weekdays, and it's been that way, as I
65 YOW: Actually that's the new summer seasonal to YQB. Hopefully YOW-CLE will start-up eventually. YOW-CLE was announced a few years ago, but was canned for
66 ManchesterMAN: Lots of people have mentioned MDW - does it have the US customs / immigration facilities that would be needed? I've been there a few times and I thoug
67 Skywatcher: Speaking of transferring at JFK on a theoretical YTZ-JFK-LAX routing, I vote with those that think it makes no sense. I recently drove from YUL to BTV
68 Pacifica: One thing is that with the new terminal that B6 is building, the whole JFK experience should be much more pleasant. More room, comfortable setting, m
69 Olympus69: I never said anything about the long term, but I doubt if they are averaging that high a percentage right now. That's not based on any official state
70 Olympus69: I agree too. Don't forget, PD is not cheap. It makes no sense to fly Business class YTZ to JFK and then B6 to LAX. Not to mention the extra couple of
71 BravoGolf: MDW does have customs. There are two gates that instead of going out the door into the concourse, you turn right, go down a ramp into the basement an
72 Falcon84: My bad! Sorry for that, but I don't work Saturdays, thus my confusion.
73 FLYACYYZ: Agreed!! The $69.00 introductory fares on PD have pretty much vanished. Dollar for dollar the fares to YOW/YUL from YTZ/YUL on AC/WS/PD are all compe
74 YOW: While we'll never know exactly what PD's load factors are, Deluce has publicly stated that in April, the airline started reporting positive cash flow
75 YOWza: I agree that it is a bit out of the way but I love JetBlue. They have ALWAYS been great to me. Also getting to YTZ is much simpler for me. YOWza
76 Drgmobile: I've never understood why the YOW flights to Washington aren't to DCA. With all of the bureaucrats flying back and forth between the two capitals this
77 Steeler83: I'd like to see Porter enter the PIT market, the "abandoned" C concourse is underused as it is anyway... It would be refreshing to see another airline
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(kidding of course)
It would be interesting to see if they actually enter airports like PHC and LGA.
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