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Ilfc Will Buy A350XWBs  
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9694 times:

http://today.reuters.fr/news/newsArt...RGET-AIRBUS-COMMANDES-20070620.XML

Sorry in French , unable to find a link in English.

John Plueger , director of ILFC , declared this afternoon during the show , before meeting Louis Gallois , one moment or another ILFC will do a deal with Airbus for A350XWBs.
No decision has been made about the commitment of 16 A350s (old version) they have.
He declared , this is a normal way with Airbus about these 16 A350XWBs , and also declared the A350XWB will be a great aircraft , and ILFC will buy it.

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9629 times:

Didn't SUH just come out and say that the A350 needed more work? And isn't he the chief exec of ILFC? Maybe I've got my facts mixed up...

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9542 times:

Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
one moment or another ILFC will do a deal with Airbus for A350XWBs.

This means not now, but later on when Airbus finally gets on with the real deal like SUH wants them to. The ILFC will order the 350 eventually, just not now. Once Airbus gets off its mighty lil butt, then the ILFC will do business with them.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12492 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9520 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
Once Airbus gets off its mighty lil butt, then the ILFC will do business with them.

What exactly is it Airbus has to get off their butt to do?



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30898 posts, RR: 87
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9478 times:
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John L. Plueger is the President & Chief Operating Officer of ILFC.

Steven F. Udvar-Hazy is the Chairman & Chief Executive Officer / Founder. He sits on the Board of Directors while Plueger sits on the Executive Management team.

http://www.ilfc.com/team.htm


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9403 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 3):
What exactly is it Airbus has to get off their butt to do?

There are countless threads on it. SUH won't order the 350 until Airbus comes up with a whole new design, among other things I cannot remember. But there are threads here on A.net about it. Dont you remember SUH grilled Airbus about it sometime last year??

Edit add: Here is one example: Udvar-Hazy Still Not Happy With A350XWB (by Lumberton Jun 19 2007 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2007-06-21 00:38:50]


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8671 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9352 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):

There are countless threads on it. SUH won't order the 350 until Airbus comes up with a whole new design, among other things I cannot remember. But there are threads here on A.net about it. Dont you remember SUH grilled Airbus about it sometime last year??

I couldn't agree more. This is purly speculation or Airbus must be offering them some really good discounts in order for them to buy it.

Hunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9300 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 6):
This is purly speculation or Airbus must be offering them some really good discounts in order for them to buy it.

I doubt additional discounts will be given, since discounts where already handed to them when they originally ordered the older version.

Discount will be the difference in price, ILFC will be paying Airbus old version price for the new XWB version.

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9243 times:

Quoting KL808 (Reply 7):
Discount will be the difference in price, ILFC will be paying Airbus old version price for the new XWB version.

I doubt that the ILFC doesn't care about that. I think they are more interested in the aircraft itself and living up to the expectations and criteria. Money, obviously isnt a factor. If it was, the ILFC would have said to go ahead with the old version of the 350 and today's version wouldn't have existed, IMO.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineRlwynn From Germany, joined Dec 2000, 1081 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9158 times:

I seems to me that in this point in time there is no such thing as an A350. Not even on paper.

How is it possible that there are so many orders for it? Airlines do not even know what it is they are ordering.

[Edited 2007-06-21 01:10:48]


I can drive faster than you
User currently offlineAminobwana From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9052 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 6):
or Airbus must be offering them some really good discounts in order for them to buy it.



Quoting KL808 (Reply 7):
ILFC will be paying Airbus old version price for the new XWB version.

Again; Good discounts and old version price (obviously already normally discounted) ?? The XWB cost 25% more than
the old one. How will Airbus manage this financially and economically, as this, as AVITAS estimates, the case with nearly all the other orders ?? see
[url]http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/b usinesstechnology/2003753259_airshow19.html[/url]

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
This means not now, but later on when Airbus finally Udvar-Hazy Still Not Happy With A350XWB gets on with the real deal like SUH wants them to. The ILFC will order the 350 eventually, just not now. Once Airbus gets off its mighty lil butt, then the ILFC will do business with them.

Mr Pflueger would be a masochist to say that ILFC will order the A350, even in the future whatever his Chief and dominant personality in ILFC Mr. Istvan Udvar-Hazy achieves (just at this moment) with his request to Gallois to change to barrels!
Obviously he (and AirframeAS) meant that finally Airbus will see the light and propose an acceptable solution, and then an order would forthcome. But Gallois, for reasons already discussed in the topic "Udvar-Hazy Still Not Happy With A350XWB" , keeps saying NON.

regards

aminobwana


User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 62
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9001 times:

To be fair, SUH's main issue is - can he place the airframes with airlines if he buys them without having them pre-emptively fixed on long leases?

Yes - of course he can. The number of customers for the jet in the last ten days says to me demand is strong - the lights are on and burning brightly for the masses as they say.

That being the case, the decision may be taken out of SUH's hands - if airlines want to lease it in its current guise, then they will either order it or lose the business to the competition. I know its a little more complicated that that, but thats the essence of it.

Airbus probably are not willing to redesign the plane to ILFC's specs, probably to the detriment of those who have ordered in its current form. They are probably betting that if they make it as is, ILFC will sign up eventually - they are extremely unlikely not to. SUH does not make the planes, Airbus does, and they have the makings of a great plane.



What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
User currently offlineKlkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8881 times:

SUH has gone out on a limb in trying to convince Airbus to use a composite frame for the aircraft. If Airbus doesn't capitulate on this point it will be interesting to see what happens. His ego being as big as it is, he might not order it just to make a point and would only order it in the future if airlines were committing up front to leases.

This is not the case with the 787. In the case of the 787 he is so confident he can lease them he has committed to at least 74 right now.

Time will tell.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8860 times:
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I find it interesting that Mr. Plueger is suddently the ILFC Voice - and that he said too much has been made of the differences between ILFC and Airbus.

Sounds to me like Mr. Plueger has been sent in to pour oil on troubled waters. A sea-change at ILFC?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
SUH won't order the 350 until Airbus comes up with a whole new design, among other things I cannot remember.

Mr. Udvar-Hazy can as unhappy as he wants, but I doubt that Airbus will change their minds. And Mr. Plueger seems to think they will order the A350.

mariner

[Edited 2007-06-21 02:26:01]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8837 times:

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 10):
How will Airbus manage this financially and economically, as this, as AVITAS estimates, the case with nearly all the other orders ?? see

Eads already allotted money for the discrepancy in price, I think its around 800 million dollars or Euros (not sure which one), but somebody else might be able to enlighten us on this.

Quoting Klkla (Reply 12):
His ego being as big as it is, he might not order it just to make a point and would only order it in the future if airlines were committing up front to leases.

This is bad for business. You don't mix personal feelings with Business. In any case the shareholders will be breathing down his neck if he does what you say and come later find out that he was mistaken and left in the dust by its competitors who have ordered them.

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineAsiaflyer From Singapore, joined May 2007, 1133 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8785 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 11):
Yes - of course he can. The number of customers for the jet in the last ten days says to me demand is strong - the lights are on and burning brightly for the masses as they say.

That being the case, the decision may be taken out of SUH's hands - if airlines want to lease it in its current guise, then they will either order it or lose the business to the competition. I know its a little more complicated that that, but thats the essence of it.

I fully agree with you there Chris.
As the demand for the A350 seems to be stronger than most people expected at this point, the decision is not in SUHs hand anymore.
Current design seems to be approved by many airlines, so SUHs demand gets less and less important,
eventhough Airbus will use the coming year until design freeze to improve the plane as much as possible.
At this point I cant see Airbus to capitulate for SUHs demand for composite frame.
Seems more likely that SUH will be the one to capitulate.
Otherwise he's gonna lose a decent piece of the future WB market.



SQ,MI,MH,CX,KA,CA,CZ,MU,KE,OZ,QF,NZ,FD,JQ,3K,5J,IT,AI,IC,QR,SK,LF,KL,AF,LH,LX,OS,SR,BA,SN,FR,WF,1I,5T,VZ,VX,AC,NW,UA,US,
User currently offlineSandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 3428 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8772 times:

I really dont know what all the fuzz is about? To my knowledge, ILFC is a leasing company. They will eventually have to buy the XWB as airlines will want to lease it and if ILFC can't offer it, airlines will go to other leasing companies who do offer it. So, unless ILFC want to hand the business to their competitors, they will have to buy it eventually, as airlines wont base their fleet planning on ILFC's offers, ILFC has to offer what the airles want, and this will, sooner or later, be the A350XWB. So, unless i completely missed the point here, i can't see one reason why ILFC, or particularely their seemingly arrogant CEO, can put any pressure on airbus, but much mor ethat they'll feel the pressure if they won't order the XWB. Of course they can merely offer the 787, but they'll lose a good part of customers who'll decide for the A350XWB to other leasing companies.

Am I completely off here?  Confused


User currently offlineKlkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 932 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8758 times:

Quoting KL808 (Reply 14):
Quoting Klkla (Reply 12):
His ego being as big as it is, he might not order it just to make a point and would only order it in the future if airlines were committing up front to leases.

This is bad for business. You don't mix personal feelings with Business. In any case the shareholders will be breathing down his neck if he does what you say and come later find out that he was mistaken and left in the dust by its competitors who have ordered them.

If he is mistaken he will just order the planes. But unlike the case for the 787 he isn't going to take a chance on this plane up front unless they capitulate on his demand for a composite frame. If they go with the composite frame I'm sure he will order some in advance even if he doesn't already have firm customers lined up to lease them.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 8758 times:
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Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 15):
Seems more likely that SUH will be the one to capitulate.

In effect, he has:

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1182291816.html

"International Lease Finance Corporation (ILFC) Chief Executive Steven Udvar-Hazy said on Tuesday that Airbus had frozen the basic design of its A350 model but he expected the plane maker to continue to optimize it."

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAcheron From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1629 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8595 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):

Well, that was faster than what I expected...


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8395 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 18):
International Lease Finance Corporation (ILFC) Chief Executive Steven Udvar-Hazy said on Tuesday that Airbus had frozen the basic design of its A350 model but he expected the plane maker to continue to optimize it."

With all due respect: I rest my case.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8353 times:

Quoting Asiaflyer (Reply 15):
As the demand for the A350 seems to be stronger than most people expected at this point,

...what ILFC will do, I don't know, but the A350XWB has basically gotten the orders which it should have received/has been hyping for the past 2 years......120-130 of the XWB orders should have been Airbus orders to "win" anyway...or had been announced previously...such as QR, US, SU, ALAFCO, CIT, etc...and it was fairly obvious EI was going with the A350 also....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25123 posts, RR: 85
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8343 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
With all due respect: I rest my case.

Hmmmm? There has been no change, Airbus is not going to barrel,

The design is frozen. Mr. Udvar-Hazy seems - at last - to have accepted that and Mr. Plueger is sorting out the relationship between ILFC and Airbus.

My only puzzle is to wonder what Mr. Udver-Hazy thought he could achieve. And why.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineSandroZRH From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 3428 posts, RR: 50
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8230 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
My only puzzle is to wonder what Mr. Udver-Hazy thought he could achieve. And why.

That's what i wonder aswell, read my post above, it seems to me that he has, from the beginning, never been in a position to challenge Airbus.


User currently offlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5504 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8230 times:

Quoting Rlwynn (Reply 9):
I seems to me that in this point in time there is no such thing as an A350. Not even on paper.

How is it possible that there are so many orders for it? Airlines do not even know what it is they are ordering.

The A350XWB is at a minimum a paper airplane, and in reality, it is clear that they have a strong basic idea of what it will be. To say airlines are ordering it - firm orders - without even knowing what it is would be what i would call a "stretch".

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 16):
I really dont know what all the fuzz is about? To my knowledge, ILFC is a leasing company. They will eventually have to buy the XWB as airlines will want to lease it and if ILFC can't offer it, airlines will go to other leasing companies who do offer it.



Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 16):
Am I completely off here?

That's pretty much how I see it too. Unless ILFC starts their own airline, they are in the business of predicting the need for airliners, then ordering them for others to lease. In it''s current iteration, the A350XWB would appear to be capable of garnering a large minority, if not near parity with the 787 (I don't know much about the 350 to really give a valid opinion). If that's the case, then they know it will be in demand, particularly as 787 slots fill. Therefore, it's only a matter of time until they place an order, and the only reasons I can see SUH objecting would be because a) he really believes it is a compromised model; or b) he is digging for a better deal.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
25 Ruscoe : What Airbus is offering I believe are guarentees about performance without having finalised the design. If this is the case then airlines can safely b
26 Aminobwana : I do not expect for a moment that a strong personalty as SUH is hiding behind a subordinate.!! It seems that one factor is being forgotten in the dis
27 Mariner : Mr. Udvar-Hazy has publicly said that the design is frozen. Mr. Pleuger has said that ILFC will buy the A350. ??? mariner
28 Ruscoe : Mariner, it just seems impossible that they could have the sort of onfo they need at this stage, and how much of the performance improvements on the 3
29 SandroZRH : Just the usual boeing fans assumption. Yes they will and have offered discounts, but so have and will boeing. Stop posting wild assupmtions that Airb
30 Mariner : It may not be what you want to hear, but it is what they said. Mr. Pleuger obviously feels he has enough information enough about the A350 to call it
31 Aminobwana : I read the article three times and see no capitulating, but a diplomatic suggestion to Gallois to make changes in the design with HE appearing as cap
32 Iwok : I am still waiting for a real customer to come along before I agree with you. QR is a strategic bacause they want to get into aerospace technology, U
33 Post contains links Mariner : I am very well aware of Mr. Udvar-Hazy's background. I have followed the psychology of what Mr. Udvar-Hazy has been doing since he first spat he dumm
34 Post contains images Astuteman : The problem with this sort of post is it infers that Airbus have just made up a load of numbers, purely to look competitive, and gain orders, without
35 Post contains images Scbriml : There is no way that Airbus is going to change the basic design of the A350 again. SUH, and a number of a.netters, just need to get over it. From the
36 Post contains images Chiad : I totally agree with you Astuteman. It's almost nothing to discuss. The order wave we've just experienced speaks for itself. But I feel that we just
37 Post contains images PM : Just to nitpick, you mean 'implies'. But I agree with the rest of your post!
38 Post contains links 814NAS : I agree with all you say, Astuteman. And... That is so true, in fact, to back up your assertion on "supply chain contracts," with Airbus and the A350,
39 JFK787NYC : ILFC Is a leasing company you are right. But, they are also the company that has to keep the plane flying for 20 years so they can make there money o
40 Scorpio : a) Yes he will. b) he never said he wouldn't. Remember how he is the one who absolutely hated (at least according to certain people on a.net) the ori
41 Columba : Or maybe some airlines approached ILFC saying if you order them we will take them.....or they have seen how many airlines have decided for the A350 o
42 EI321 : One aircraft per airline? Since its considered to be more conservative than the 787, its also less likely to be more problematic according to your lo
43 Poitin : Much more likely SUH got the deal he wanted.
44 Jacobin777 : ...while they may be off by a couple of % points "here and there"...for the most part, they will come very close to their numbers and/or "hit" them..
45 Post contains images SandroZRH : So in other words, you're saying that the A350 will be a piece of shit with warranty. Way to go
46 PlanesNTrains : Can you give us an example of such a "horrible big headache" in the past? To the best of my knowledge, there aren't many five year old Airbus planes
47 Poitin : While John Leahy might run off in the mouth in public, all the airlines have their own expert engineers who are more than capable of determining the
48 JFK787NYC : Reply to ALL: I do not believe the A350 will be a problem. 1- 75 planes to 75 customers - I was just giving an example. 2- I never said the plane will
49 Post contains images SandroZRH : This is probably the nr1 dumbest statement ive read in the last couple of weeks. Congrats!
50 Astuteman : Nail truly hit on head. Poitin. Thanks. Regards
51 EI321 : Whether he got what he was lookng or not (do you mean the carbon frames or the price?), he was always going to order the A350 eventually. ILFC are th
52 Post contains images Jacobin777 : .. ..that's why I agree with Astuteman..its almost absurd Airbus will "cook up" the numbers so badly...they might "play around" with it to their adva
53 Poitin : Never said he wasn't going to buy, only that Gallois wasn't willing to give him the deal he wants. I suspect he wanted Iron clad warranties on the al
54 EI321 : Would this happen? Its not up to airbus or Boeing to set the second hand price of aircraft, the market does that!
55 JFK787NYC : Ok... Look, Leahy sells planes like people sell stuff on the streets of New York. They sales approach is to downgrade their competitors product and c
56 Poitin : It's done all the time in business. And I believe that of late Airbus has done it, although I do not have a reference. I believe it was in relation w
57 JFK787NYC : That was exactly what I was claiming before.... The A340 was most likely a very big problem for the leasing compaines. Didn't Boeing have to purchase
58 Poitin : Well, if they can't place the aircraft into a second and third 5-year lease, they will loose money. And if there is no re-sell value to the airframe,
59 Mariner : That may, of course, be true. But it isn't the public face of it. The public face of it is that he wanted barrel costruction - and he didn't get it.
60 Scorpio : Newsflash: everyone selling anything will try to downgrade the competition and claim their product is superior. And that includes Boeing. But if you
61 Jacobin777 : ..no, but he need not deride the competition in public while the Chairman of your competitor is saying "good to see you guys back, I have the most re
62 Scorpio : True, he's a loudmouth. And an attention whore. But he's also a damn fine salesman, and to try and take away from that by making the ridiculous assum
63 Post contains images Dank : And I would second your comments above about how every salesman does some knocking of the competition in the pursuit of sales (and Boeing did so in p
64 DistantHorizon : Hi guys ILFC needs more Airbus than Airbus ILFC. Off course they will buy Airbus! They have to! Unless they want to lose business for competition! Wha
65 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...that's what I've been saying all along..I have nothing personal with him..however, I see him as a crass, classless individual.... ..and that's not
66 Mariner : Since this thread is about ILFC, I would say that Mr. Udvar-Hazy's comments about the A350/A350XWB - have not been all that gracious, either. mariner
67 Poitin : You need to read the report again. SUH wanted a CFRP frame, not barrels. And what he said he wanted and what he really wanted could be two different
68 Mariner : And I am perfectly prepared to concede that you may be right. I can only go by what he has said in public, and I believe otherwise. Either he is a ma
69 Asuflyer05 : Since everyone on this board cannot comprehend what others post and continually allege that if someone doesn't want to order a non-Boeing product it'
70 XT6Wagon : even worse, it could be a very good plane to lease, but if you have all your capital tied up in great planes to lease... Its doesn't matter. So ILFC
71 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ....that could be considered true.... .....too much of it has been made here on A.net also (of course, it would be hypocritical of me saying that I w
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