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I Got An Email From CNN About The AirChina Pilot..  
User currently offlineEbs757 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 758 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18573 times:

I'm sure some remember the audio clip of the Air China pilot who could not speak good/if any, English at JFKl. I thought it was a good idea to post it up on youtube because clearly nothing was being done about it at the time. Here it is- I apologize about posting the picture if the photography is offended, I just needed a visual to go along with it.
Nearly 40,000 views later I received a message that went like this-

Hi there,

My name is ******** - CNN's Beijing correspondent. Right now we are trying to file a report on Chinese pilots and their lack of English. The Chinese aviation authority on their website has admitted that only 8 % have actually passed the required English level.

My question to you - is there anyway we can independently verfiy this exchange between control tower and pilot is for real? Any assistance you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

We have already contracted the FAA, NTSB, the Pilots Union, Air China, and the China Aviation authorit and no one wants to go on camera. But if we could confirm this exchange is genuine, we'd have a story which I think the vast majority of airline passengers should be made aware of.

Many thanks,

********

I am asking for anyones help on this issue. If anyone has any further information or any thoughts please post. I'm going to need to prove this is in fact real. As it came straight off liveatc.net.

Thanks,
Mike


Viva la Vida
81 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5417 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18543 times:

Personally I wouldn't be discussing this openly on this forum.

just my professional opinion .....

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineEbs757 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 758 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18495 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 1):
Personally I wouldn't be discussing this openly on this forum.

just my professional opinion .....

Jimbo

I completely understand your views but I really don't have much to back up this is real. the audio clip was posted on a.net before and I just need some info proving it is real. Something has to be done



Viva la Vida
User currently offlineJogales From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 437 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18419 times:

I'd go to LiveATC.net and see if they can verify it. If not, perhaps try emailing the person who streams the JFK feed.

Josh



-
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5162 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 18363 times:

Of course CNN neglected to contact the Controllers' Union, who might very well have something to say about this. LiveATC should have it, or someone should know where the clip came from.

User currently offlineEbs757 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 758 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18310 times:

I just left liveatc.net a message and received a confirmation e-mail stating it could take up to a week for a response...


Viva la Vida
User currently offlineSkyexRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18267 times:

I have heard many foreign pilots on JFK ATC streaming audio via LiveATC.net that are terrible with their english and the controllers getting very pissed off when the pilots don't follow directions or the controllers can't understand them.

User currently offlinePtugarin From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18169 times:

This was discussed sometime ago;
Is Time For Chinese Pilot To Learn Some English. (by YLWbased Apr 12 2007 in Civil Aviation)
However, the video has been removed. It was the same video you have posted


User currently offlineB777ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 548 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18150 times:

Let us know how this ends.

User currently offlinePilotdude09 From Australia, joined May 2005, 1777 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18134 times:

Well CNN could listen to live ATC at JFK as this guys is on quite often, one of the funniest and strictest controllers around  Smile

But they could just contact JFK Atc about it and im sure they would verify this.



Qantas, Still calling Australia Home.........
User currently offlineEbs757 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 758 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 18095 times:

Keeping everyone informed:
I have contacted liveatc.net about this
Replied to the CNN corespondent telling him I am doing my best to confirm this but I assured him it was genuine. I gave him a link to the original thread about this ATC chat so he can read what hundreds of us had to say about it.



Viva la Vida
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17993 times:

Quoting Ebs757 (Thread starter):
We have already contracted the FAA, NTSB, the Pilots Union, Air China, and the China Aviation authorit and no one wants to go on camera. But if we could confirm this exchange is genuine, we'd have a story which I think the vast majority of airline passengers should be made aware of.

That just goes to show you where news agencies go to verify the authenticity of a story before going public with it.  banghead 



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17973 times:

Quoting Ebs757 (Thread starter):

We have already contracted the FAA, NTSB, the Pilots Union, Air China, and the China Aviation authorit and no one wants to go on camera. But if we could confirm this exchange is genuine, we'd have a story which I think the vast majority of airline passengers should be made aware of.

Could perhaps the FAA have a copy of this? I'm thinking Government Agency & Freedom of Information Act. . .



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineSkyexRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 17775 times:

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 9):
as this guys is on quite often, one of the funniest and strictest controllers around

You talking about the guy that is usually on ground in the mid-afternoon? He is always on the verge of snapping when I'm listening in.


User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17598 times:

CNN is a little late. Spiegel online from yesterday:

http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/0,1518,489747,00.html

Axel



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineLAXspotter From India, joined Jan 2007, 3650 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 17517 times:

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 9):
ATC at JFK as this guys is on quite often, one of the funniest and strictest controllers around

This guy is hard on everyone, including the JetBlue pilots based at JFk, hhaah

Quoting SkyexRamper (Reply 13):
You talking about the guy that is usually on ground in the mid-afternoon? He is always on the verge of snapping when I'm listening in.

Makes me hate him so much, this guy later says "did i tell you to do that", and infact he does which really isnt the pilot fault, he needs to calm down. I really love in when the "Asian" airlines come into JFK, when this guy is controlling, it gets tense.



"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
User currently offlineB777ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 548 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17470 times:

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 14):
CNN is a little late. Spiegel online from yesterday:

http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/....html

From the article:

How dangerously unsatisfactory Sprachkenntnisse can be, the Crash of a MD 80-medium-haul aircraft in the northwest of China proved in the year 1993. The pilots were obviously irritated of the automatic ground level warning signal of the airplane built in the USA, the black box noted their last words: “What of does “pull UP” mean?”

Good Lord.


User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1132 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17445 times:

Dialogue like that is nothing new....have heard it before, to a lesser degree, elsewhere.

User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1447 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 17425 times:

Quoting B777ER (Reply 16):
How dangerously unsatisfactory Sprachkenntnisse can be, the Crash of a MD 80-medium-haul aircraft in the northwest of China proved in the year 1993. The pilots were obviously irritated of the automatic ground level warning signal of the airplane built in the USA, the black box noted their last words: “What of does “pull UP” mean?”

Good Lord.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 



If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlineCarnoc From China, joined Oct 2001, 875 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 17279 times:

No wonder why CNN is becoming worse and worse...

Only 8% passed required English level? - What a misleading figure. Why don't they explain that out of 8,593 Chinese pilots requiring ICAO English Level 4 standard before March 2008, only 753 have so far undertaken the official exam with 651 passed without any problem - the average pass rate is over 86%.

By the way, if you do not know it for a fact, do not say Air China has done nothing, because a simple Google search brings up heaps Chinese articles and media reports on how Air China has tried to up-lift the English skills of their pilots over the last few months or so...

Regards.

[Edited 2007-06-22 11:56:35]

User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5712 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 17239 times:

Quoting Ebs757 (Thread starter):
Right now we are trying to file a report on Chinese pilots and their lack of English.

followed by a report on the safety implications of use of non-standard phraseology at JFK and need for anger management classes for their ATCs?


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21625 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 17101 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 20):
followed by a report on the safety implications of use of non-standard phraseology at JFK

The 7110.65 makes no mention of any standard phraseology for asking whether an airplane has been cleared into the ramp or not. "Have they cleared you into the ramp?" is pretty clear to me. It's not as if Air China is the only airline that has to get clearance from their ramp to go to their gate - everyone does. So they should expect a question like that.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3944 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 17031 times:

Quoting B777ER (Reply 16):
the black box noted their last words: “What of does “pull UP” mean?”

I don't believe that. Reminds me of this though:

German Coast Guard

Just for fun

Peter Smile



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offline777 From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 16957 times:

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 22):
I don't believe that. Reminds me of this though:

German Coast Guard

Just for fun

Peter

Priceless!!!!!!!!!
 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 


User currently offlineOmoo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 16551 times:

Contact the FAA, they will have this on a tape somewhere,

25 Post contains images UN_B732 : The Controllers' Union seems like another good agency to contact. Good luck
26 Post contains images KaiGywer : Hehe, that's funny Just like a certain Dutch commercial that would NEVER fly in the US.
27 Schipholjfk : I am assuming this video was posted to demonstrate how Air China pilot is unable to carry on a conversation in English, right? What is great about thi
28 SpeedbirdEGJJ : Peter - Its true China Northern 6901 crashed in Urumqi in China in the 1992. While on final approach, the autopilot automatically disconnected. The C
29 Post contains images RedFlyer : Unless you're an ATC controller with inside knowledge of the incident, you're going to have no better luck than CNN proving the authenticity of the i
30 Mandala499 : Now I wished I had recorded that China Southern aircraft in Jakarta being completely hopeless in Jakarta Delivery... which in the end was solved by a
31 Post contains images BuyantUkhaa : Care to share?
32 KaiGywer : You've been warned. NSFW-Language
33 Luisca : Hilarius, you gotta love Europe Imagine trying to air this commercial in our Nazi puritan country, the prudes at the FCC and TVevangalist would have
34 Post contains links Skoker : Here's your proof- actual ATC recording: http://www.liveatc.net/forums/index.php/topic,2940.0.html Extra credit info: http://www.liveatc.net/forums/in
35 Comanche : communication is a problem but it doesn't help that our own ATC people in the Northeast take great pride in spewing out instructions, in the process s
36 N757KW : Those Esnglish commercials are absolutely funny. I work for an Asian carrier in the U.S. I have a slight southern accent and I tend to talk pretty fas
37 NIKV69 : Really why is CNN doing this? Just to scare the shit out of people and get ratings. Let the FAA handle it for christ sake.
38 Post contains images Bravo45 : Assuming you posted correctly, I think CNN china needs to improve on their spelling before pointing to their pilots.
39 Ebs757 : Thanks but the first link took me to the forum and I click on the link and I get the 404 error. The second one worked and thanks many for that. I do
40 777236ER : Hopefully CNN will make it clear that non-standard phraesology from American ATC also has the potential to cause diasters too.
41 SkyexRamper : My best with that guy was last week when Aeroflot was trying to get a gate...hehehe.
42 TransIsland : I wonder if this is for real or an urban legend. It reminds me of the story I've heard about a similar accident somewhere in South America, where the
43 Revo1059 : Other countries can be just as bad. I wound up yelling at a Aeroflot pilot when I told him repeatedly and clearly to push back facing south and he pus
44 Post contains images 747fan : I was listening in on the liveatc.net JFK Tower feed last week and one of the China Airlines Cargo pilots sounded just as clueless.But its not just th
45 B777ER : Just watch the weather channel. If say around 5pm Eastern time the weather looks like crap in the JFK terminal area, fire up the computer, load up JF
46 Dec : hahaha that's absolutely hilarious! Thanks for sharing man!
47 LAXspotter : LOL, thats a classic Precisely, Add is some delays, and that controller who goes off on the Air China Pilot really goes haywire. quote=747fan,reply=4
48 Post contains images 747fan : Nobody quite like a.netters!
49 LTU932 : I thought the problem with France is that AF actually did want to implement English as the only language to be used with ATC, but either the pilot's
50 Drewwright : Try flying to some cities in Mexico CNN.... We look just as silly as that chinese pilot. For those of you that are scared of flying, take the gonggong
51 Ptrjong : Wow. Thanks for correcting me. Which one?
52 LAXspotter : That is absurd, CDG is not some regional airport of the world One way to check is just listening to ATC from Mexico City on the Live ATC feed, its th
53 Mir : That was an Etihad plane. -Mir
54 PPVRA : Any updates?
55 Ebs757 : Not as of yet. I will keep everyone posted on this.
56 Ebs757 : Ok Just got an email and they hope to have the story on the air sometime in the next week
57 777fan : I seem to recall one of the major networks (NBC Nightly News) running a story on this issue several years ago. It singled out a couple of Air China,
58 Post contains links Philipkk : This would explain why English proficiency is in the news suddenly: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070622.wchinapilots0622/BNSt
59 Aminobwana : I wondering about your argumentation. As a frequent traveller to China and having a Chinese wife, I am fully aware of the lack of capability of the C
60 PPVRA : The whole point of having a free press is to expose this type of thing. Criticizing CNN for doing this is ludricous - they are exposing a problem to
61 Doug_Or : was this LAXabout 3 weeks ago?
62 Post contains images Womack17 : Let my preface my remarks by stating now that I completely agree that any flight crew that flies into, out of, or through US airspace must have an ade
63 Carnoc : If you do some research, you should aware that Chinese media reported on this, both in Chinese and English. In fact, most so-called Western media out
64 CPH757 : Well, Chinese media is not exactly being known for exposing the whole truth, and no matter how new these ICAO demands are, it's simply not good enoug
65 Carnoc : This is your personal opinion and I respect it. You are entitled to say whatever you want to say. I don't deny the fact that some Chinese pilots are
66 Carnoc : See my reply to Aminobwana's statement. Back in Day 1, Chinese pilots didn't have to learn English at all, because they had at least one 'translator'
67 Post contains images CPH757 : That's somehow a valid point, but I don't hear any translator on the soundbite referred to in the top of this thread. As I point out in my reply as w
68 PPVRA : That's no excuse, Carnoc. Not when you have hundreds of lives at risk. Stop sucking up to the government and tell them to resolve this issue yesterday
69 Post contains links PPVRA : Here's a Malaysian article: http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/v3/news.php?id=269130 Good thing they are doing something about it, and as quickly as po
70 Aminobwana : I would say these are facts, not my opinion. One unrelated but typical issue, even reported by the heavily censored media, is that when a coal mine i
71 Mandala499 : As far as I was informed by friends who went for training in China (sounds rather strange huh?), they got a guy, usually someone r/t licensed dispatc
72 Carnoc : Okay, everyone has their own views and I respect that. I will clarify that I am not trying to 'suck up' to the Chinese government or anything since th
73 Carnoc : This really varies from airline to airline and from aircraft to aircraft. Back to even a few years ago, when an Air China B747 was being used for an
74 Aminobwana : I understand your arguments. But you will surly understand that such situation cannot persist, independently if itapplies to Chinese, French or Camer
75 Ebs757 : Got an email back from the man and they are hoping to air this story tomorrow night. They have confirmed the audio with the NATCA also. Thats all the
76 AeroWesty : There was just a promo for the piece on CNN. It will be shown sometime in the next hour, 7pm Eastern/4pm Pacific.
77 Mandala499 : Chinese if I remember correctly is an accepted ICAO language... with English, French, Spanish, Russian and Chinese as the ICAO languages. So within th
78 Ryu2 : They use English as the ATC language in Taiwan and Hong Kong -- only in the mainland do they use Mandarin.
79 Post contains links and images Philipkk : Your efforts have borne fruit. It is on CNN's video section today. You should be able to see it as a featured video. Else, try this link: http://rss.
80 Post contains links Liamksa : Not airline related but another example of 'communication difficulties'... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjD67VZuYNU (Contains some language)
81 Ebs757 : Thanks for the link. I missed it live because of football and probably wouldn't have seen it.
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