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American Eagle Tail Strike In BOS  
User currently offlineMd94 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 147 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12054 times:

I'm not an expert by any means, but it appears the gear doors are down but the gear is not. I wonder what happened, any ideas?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286233,00.html

Link to video and story from Boston: http://www.myfoxboston.com/myfox/pag...ayoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

Wow, that was a scary ride!!!  Wow!


72?, 732/3/7/8, 763/4, 773, 744, MD88/90, F100, 319/20/21, E145/135/175/195, CRJ200/700, B206, 152/72/82, CH47, F16D,
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTrekster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12021 times:

oh dear!!!

The gear door is open, would it not of come down though in that set of pics.

It may be gear problems, not an expert though


User currently offlineMidEx216 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12021 times:

Uhh, check the title. That's a bit more than a tail strike...


"Cue the Circus Music!"
User currently offlineCastleIsland From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11991 times:

Not sure I'd call it a tail-strike, it appeared to be a normal flare (for an RJ), just without gear. We can speculate all we want, but it's not fair to blame anyone until the FDR is evaluated and the results made public. My opinion: it sure looks like the PIC forgot to call for gear down. Are mains and nose wheels operated independently on these AC? What are the odds of mains and nose gear not coming down with no indication (or their lack of recognition) to the pilot(s)?

User currently offlineAirTranTUS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 11939 times:

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 3):
My opinion: it sure looks like the PIC forgot to call for gear down.

Maybe, but in the first pic, the nose gear doors are open. They are still open in the second pic. If they selected gear down at the last second, wouldn't the nose gear be visible partially in the second pic?

I wonder how the first touchdown sounded. Nails on a blackboard?

Someone needs to give the media a lesson about fuel dumping as well.


User currently offline777WT From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 874 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 11791 times:

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 4):
Maybe, but in the first pic, the nose gear doors are open. They are still open in the second pic. If they selected gear down at the last second, wouldn't the nose gear be visible partially in the second pic?

That seems to be a landing gear problem.

The nose doors are hydraulic operated. When gear down is commanded, the nose gear door opens first then the nose gear uplock box releases and the nose gear deploys.

The mains do have a door but they are attached to the main strut with rods and are hinged.

What I can see is the mains are unlocked but it's not coming down, the same goes for the nose gear.

Once all the gear is down and locked...all the prox switches for weight-off-wheels setup will agree and all green will show on the MFD.

There is a manual release handle for the landing gear located under the FO's left foot. Wonder if they did use that?


User currently offlineAeroVodochody From Czech Republic, joined Feb 2005, 540 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 11563 times:

I guess the indicators in the cockpit said the gear was down and locked?


Try not to be jealous, we can't all be Czech.
User currently offlineWestIndian425 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1014 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 11527 times:

Wait a minute!! Isn't there an EGPWS on board? Unless it was MEL'd (that's the only think I can think of), that thing should have alerted the pilots of the problem long before they were close to the ground.


God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
User currently offlineSEAdomer787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 115 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 11405 times:
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In the video clip, it appears that the flaps are not fully deployed when the plane finally does land safely (also appears to be faster than normal, which would support that). Perhaps a hydraulic problem? This seems to be more than just a "whoops! forgot the gear!" situation, especially considering the fact that the doors are open during the first landing attempt. Or at least I would hope so! Glad it ended well for the pax!

User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 11390 times:

Screams pilot error.....


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineAV8AJET From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1311 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11307 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):
Screams pilot error.....

I don't agree with you at all...explain why??? The nose gear doors are open, are you qualified on the ERJ?



"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11268 times:

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 10):

I don't agree with you at all...explain why???

Because......

1) EGPWS would be screaming in their ears "Too low GEAR....Too Low GEAR.... Too low GEAR"
2) During the landing check list they are required to look at the gear indication and confirm 3 green down and locked

Quoting AV8AJET (Reply 10):
are you qualified on the ERJ?

......actually yes I am. I'm not saying they forgot to put the gear down. I'm saying they tried to land when they did not know the condition for the landing gear.

[Edited 2007-06-23 06:20:13]


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineEbs757 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 758 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 11261 times:

"I couldn't understand why the gear doors were down other than someone forgot to put the gear down"

Aviation expert?



Viva la Vida
User currently offlineBoeing767mech From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1021 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11058 times:

The gear indicator showed 3 green with the gear still in the hole. After flying around and cycling the gear handle the gear extended after dragging the belly and flaps.

The airplane was in the hanger on jacks were the NTSB and FAA witnessed the gear handle down,gear in the hole and 3 green on the indicator. I heard about it from the mechanics working the airplane.

I'll say the pilot earned his pay that day. He managed to get the plane back in the air after dragging the belly. Whom evers fault it was, Embrarer or the Prox Box manufacturer it could have been alot worse.

David



Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
User currently offlineHmmmm... From Canada, joined May 1999, 2104 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11034 times:

Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 13):
The airplane was in the hanger on jacks were the NTSB and FAA witnessed the gear handle down,gear in the hole and 3 green on the indicator. I heard about it from the mechanics working the airplane.

Of course, by the time the plane got to the hangar, that was the case. The question is, what was the condition of gear handle on approach.



An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
User currently offlineFCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 10968 times:

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 14):
Of course, by the time the plane got to the hangar, that was the case. The question is, what was the condition of gear handle on approach.

No, you missed the point of the post. According to this report, safety officials *recreated* the situation in the hangar, and apparently have found that the indicator lights on this particular aircraft show down and locked with the landing gear still stowed. Of course, that might not be the case - the report may or may not be true. We don't know.

I love how people always jump to convict the pilots of "pilot error" before anyone knows what the facts are. Let the investigators do their work.

Let's just admit that nobody knows what happened here, and we won't know until everything is dissected - the gear system, the aircraft computers, the cockpit voice recorder, the available photos/video and the flight data recorder.

[Edited 2007-06-23 15:23:46]


USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 10934 times:

Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 13):
The gear indicator showed 3 green with the gear still in the hole.

That I would like to see since the prox sensors all work independently of each other. The sensors and the targets must all make 'contact' for it to give a 3 green situation.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1986 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10740 times:

NTSB Prelim:

Quote:
An American Eagle EMB-135, tail number N731BE, flight number 4539 initially landed with the gear up at Logan International Airport, Boston, Massachusetts. The crew reported that they had an indication that the gear was down and locked but right before touchdown, they noticed a landing gear lever disagree. They executed a go-around and mechanically lowered the landing gear. They were able to get the gear down and locked and got a visual confirmation that the gear was down. The flaps would not extend due to damage from contacting the runway on the intial landing, but the crew was able to successfully land the airplane. There were 37 passengers and 3 crew members on board. No injuries were reported. Eye witnesses to the first landing stated that they did not see the gear down on the approach.

What's a landing gear lever disagree?


User currently offlineA10WARTHOG From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10660 times:

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 17):
What's a landing gear lever disagree?

A EICAS message that tells you the gear lever position and gear position do not agree.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 16):
That I would like to see since the prox sensors all work independently of each other. The sensors and the targets must all make 'contact' for it to give a 3 green situation.

I was wondering the same thing. Maybe a bad LGEU

[Edited 2007-06-23 15:50:23]

User currently offline777WT From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 874 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9921 times:

Quoting SEAdomer787 (Reply 8):
In the video clip, it appears that the flaps are not fully deployed when the plane finally does land safely (also appears to be faster than normal, which would support that). Perhaps a hydraulic problem?

The flaps are powered by a electric motor driving torque tubes.

From what I'm reading, it seems like it's either the prox switches or the LGEU.


User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9903 times:

They may have put the gear handle down... as seen in photos, but the gear did not move....as noted by the disagree message


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineA10WARTHOG From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9806 times:

Eagle also uses flap 22 deg landing, that is why you do not always see there flaps down all the way

User currently offlineHmmmm... From Canada, joined May 1999, 2104 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 9775 times:

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 15):
I love how people always jump to convict the pilots of "pilot error" before anyone knows what the facts are. Let the investigators do their work.

I love how people always jump to defend the pilots of "pilot error" before anyone knows what the facts are. Let the forum do its work.



An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
User currently offlineBuckfifty From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1316 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9412 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 11):
......actually yes I am. I'm not saying they forgot to put the gear down. I'm saying they tried to land when they did not know the condition for the landing gear.

So far, the reports suggests that they had three greens, and that the EGPWS did not go off. The only indication is the Gear Lever Position Disagree message, which means that they had put the gear lever down for the approach. Don't know what MEL items the aircraft was dispatched with. Why did the EGPWS not go off? Not sure how it works on the Embraer, but if they see three greens, that means the proximity switches should be sensing that the gear was in a downlocked position. Many sources on the web so far have verified that the aircraft was tested in the hangar, and that three greens were showing with the scenario as described above. Could it be a landing gear control unit malfunction? Who knows.

In any case, it was a good piece of piloting, going around in such a condition, and landing the aircraft safely again.


User currently offlineFCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (6 years 10 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 8459 times:

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 22):
I love how people always jump to defend the pilots of "pilot error" before anyone knows what the facts are. Let the forum do its work.

Posters are attacking and defaming real people who have real lives, automatically blaming them for a near-crash without knowing anything beyond media speculation, rumors and innuendo. That's unnecessary, tabloidesque and uninformed. For shame.



USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
25 Jenkingeorge : (not coming from an expert, far from it, LOL) But looking at that the gear doors were open pretty early, however should there not be warning light in
26 Md94 : Anyone know if they had not manually drop the gear or did it work right the next time?
27 Drewwright : It is apparently a problem with the aircraft, not with the pilots. Embraer has advised E145 operators to use caution if this should happen again. The
28 Post contains links Snaiks : well go to http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kbos/BOS-Twr-Jun-20-2007-1200Z.mp3 listen that min 20 and something is when they go around and 26 is when
29 KC135TopBoom : I agree, this crew screwed up. This does appear to be a problem with the airplane, too. But the crew should have caught the fact the gear did not ext
30 Post contains images OyKIE : On general if the wheels are not out and locked, there would not be three green lights to indicate that everything is okay. That way the two pilots sh
31 Okie73 : it would seem to me if the gear was not out, the pilots should notice on approach that it was taking a lot less power and that there was a lot less no
32 A10WARTHOG : Yeah it does, I wanted to shut her up so many times doing max engine runs. Here is the preliminary information: NTSB Identification: DCA07FA050 Sched
33 Boeing767mech : Bitching Betty is part of the EGPWS and she goes off if your around 1500 feet with the gear not down and the power levers at flight idle. Since the a
34 ZANL188 : ************************************************************ NTSB ADVISORY ************************************************************ National Trans
35 Md94 : Thanks for the update!
36 Higherflyer : I love how people always jump to ANY determination of blame before any facts are known. Give the pilots of this one a break. Let the facts be determi
37 Alfa75 : Two questions. 1. Did the news outlet ever report the outcome of the investigation? 2. Can those planes perform a fuel dump? Correct me if I am wrong,
38 Higherflyer : The EMB cannot dump fuel.
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