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Endorsing Tickets  
User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5277 times:

In this thread: Northwest Planning Numerous Flight Cancellations (by Iowaman Jun 23 2007 in Civil Aviation)

The subject of endorsing tickets came up, and Northstarboy defined the practice as

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 29):
basically, if you have a passenger traveling on a nonrefundable ticket, another airline won't accept that ticket unless Northwest "signs it over" or gives the other airline permission to accept it. Normally, if the ticket is not signed over or "endorsed" and the other airline accepts it anyway, they won't be paid by Northwest for the value of the transportation they provided the passenger, so it would be in effect like they're carrying that passenger for free. What Northwest is asking the other airlines is to accept a nonrefundable ticket, without Northwest actually signing it over, with the promise that even though the ticket has not been signed over, they'll get paid

I noticed that specific mention is made to nonrefundable tickets, and this made me curious about how the practice may differ with full-fare, fully-refundable tickets.

For example, since virtually all of my business travel is booked in 'Y' class inventory (Y1, YH, YL, or Y26 being the most common farebasises), specifically because it is fully refundable and fully changable -- does this mean that in irregular operations I could take my ticket to another airline, if necessary, without it being endorsed?

Lincoln
(Starting a new thread since it isn't entirely on topic for the original thread)


CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTymnBalewne From Bermuda, joined Mar 2005, 953 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5201 times:

If I recall correctly...a ticket can belong to two airlines:

-the carrier it's plated on, or issued against...(i.e. a "001" ticket number belongs to AA, "125"- British Airways, etc.) because that carrier is holding the money for the ticket,
-the carrier the individual coupon is closed to, "CX" in the carrier box means that particular coupon is closed to Cathay Pacific.

Either one of those two carriers can reissue, revalidate or endorse the ticket (or coupon) over to another carrier.

If the carrier box reads "YY" then that particular coupon can be accepted by any carrier operated on that route, (but no carrier is mandated to accept the coupon at face value).

A ticket that reads "NON ENDORSABLE" doesn't mean it's truly non-endorsable. That endorsement is a prompt to the agent to not endorse the ticket to another carrier. If carrier "A" properly endorses a non-endorsable ticket to carrier "B", carrier "B" can accept the ticket and get paid the value of the coupon. (similar to endorsing a cheque).

In times of disruption carrier "A" can arrange a blanket endorsement agreement with other carriers. That means the customer doesn't have to go to carrier "A" to get the ticket endorsed. Carrier "B" will get paid for accepting the ticket.

A full-fare ticket with a carrier listed in the carrier box on the ticket/coupon would need to have the coupon(s) endorsed as there's no guarantee that carrier "A" will give the money over to carrier "B" with out the endorsement of "A".

C.



Dewmanair...begins with Dew
User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5196 times:

Quoting Lincoln (Thread starter):
does this mean that in irregular operations I could take my ticket to another airline, if necessary, without it being endorsed?

Only if an interline agreement is in place/exists between the two airlines concerned.


User currently offlineRDUDDJI From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1534 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5169 times:

Typically in the first line of endorsements it'll tell you what carriers it's normally (i.e. no airline A endorsement needed) valid on...


Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 887 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5066 times:

what are the ticket numbers for airlines?

Is NW 012?



LH 442
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5019 times:

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 4):
what are the ticket numbers for airlines?

Is NW 012?

Not sure if NW is 012 - some examples:

001 = AA
016 = UA (or was that US? I keep mixing them up...)
074 = KL
217 = TG
220 = LH
724 = LX

Haven't found a complete list on the internet as of yet, though I'm certain there is one. This code is used for accounting purposes, as it makes it easy to immediately recognize through whom the ticket was issued (i.e. which validating carrier - this is identical for airline- and travel-agent-issued tickets).

NW, for example, is not used at all in Europe - KL is used for ticketing NW tickets: the payment for the tickets is processed by KL and then passed on to NW.



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineChiguire From Venezuela, joined Sep 2004, 2005 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5010 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 5):
NW, for example, is not used at all in Europe - KL is used for ticketing NW tickets: the payment for the tickets is processed by KL and then passed on to NW.

And the other way round in the US.....


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4999 times:

Quoting Chiguire (Reply 6):
Quoting Leskova (Reply 5):
NW, for example, is not used at all in Europe - KL is used for ticketing NW tickets: the payment for the tickets is processed by KL and then passed on to NW.

And the other way round in the US.....

See... it pays to read your own post before you post it...  Wink ... I had actually wanted to write something along the lines "NW is used for KL ticketing in North America"...  Smile ... at least I think I remember reading that NW is used in Canada and Mexico as well.

So... what's used in South America, Asia and Australia? Or are both present on those markets?



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineBigOrange From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2375 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4960 times:

If you have a full Y ticket you don't need an endorsement, because it's totally interchangeable.

Why waste your company's money on full Y tickets though? Just buy a non-refundable ticket and you can change it (for a fee) and still be paying less.


User currently offlineThirtyEcho From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 1656 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4926 times:

My Gawd, this used to be SOOO easy to do prior to deregulation. Once a ticket was endorsed it was like cash money to any other airline, irregardless of the fare basis. Since fares were regulated, on similar route segments there was no price differential.

Your continuing flight on American is delayed? Get an endorsement and jump on the next Delta flight to your destination. American would even handle the reservation and seat assignment on Delta and the whole process took about 30 seconds. Get a sticker and get there quicker.

If your original ticket was on a single class flight, the line accepting your endorsement was required to book you as a First Class passenger. Enjoy!


User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4853 times:

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 8):
If you have a full Y ticket you don't need an endorsement, because it's totally interchangeable.

Sorry, but it certainly is not!
A full Y ticket is fully refundable and fully changeable with the airline it was purchased from certainly........but not necessarily with any other airline, nor does it in no way mean it can be used at will on any airline of your choice. For one airline to accept another airline's tickets there must be an interline agreement between the two.


User currently offlineAIR757200 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4847 times:

Quoting Lincoln (Thread starter):
does this mean that in irregular operations I could take my ticket to another airline, if necessary, without it being endorsed?

It will ultimately be up to the receiving carrier to accept a unrestricted ticket (full fare). If the receiving carrier is full and you just walk up with your Y26 ticket, they can turn you away. In some cases, the receiving carrier can accept the ticket and charge you the difference between your Y26 fare and the receiving carrier's Y26 equivalent fare. Don't be surprised if they say you owe an additional amount.


User currently offlineTymnBalewne From Bermuda, joined Mar 2005, 953 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4799 times:

Quoting Lincoln (Thread starter):
For example, since virtually all of my business travel is booked in 'Y' class inventory (Y1, YH, YL, or Y26 being the most common farebasises), specifically because it is fully refundable and fully changable -- does this mean that in irregular operations I could take my ticket to another airline, if necessary, without it being endorsed?



Quoting AIR757200 (Reply 11):
It will ultimately be up to the receiving carrier to accept a unrestricted ticket (full fare). If the receiving carrier is full and you just walk up with your Y26 ticket, they can turn you away. In some cases, the receiving carrier can accept the ticket and charge you the difference between your Y26 fare and the receiving carrier's Y26 equivalent fare. Don't be surprised if they say you owe an additional amount.

The receiving carrier isn't guaranteed to get paid by the issuing carrier without an endorsement. The fare and fare type are independent of endorsements.

C.



Dewmanair...begins with Dew
User currently offlineAIR757200 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4749 times:

Quoting TymnBalewne (Reply 12):
receiving carrier isn't guaranteed to get paid by the issuing carrier without an endorsement.

An endorsement is not needed if the airlines have an existing agreement, in terms of US legacy airlines, (US/AA/NW/UA/CO/DL) will accept each others full fare/unrestricted tickets and will be paid.

Non-refundable fares require endorsements and may not be paid without one, now that US legacies are using E-ticketing INVOL, it's easier now for endorsements.. setting the "INVOL" indicator to the affected electronic coupons is all that is needed.

Back to refundable fares: A passenger with a UA refundable ticket, normally without a ticket designator attached to the fare basis code and without "NON-END" in the endorsement box can walk over to AA and fly on AA given that the fare is available. We do it all the time, we can even reissue UA's ticket to a 001/AA ticket stock reflecting our fare basis equivalent.


User currently offlineAIR757200 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4743 times:

Also, you normally do not see "NONEND" on US domestic tickets as "NONREF" is the term used. However, sometimes, NONREF isn't included even though it is, therefore the agent must research the fare basis to determine if it is a non-refundable fare. (Clues: SA7DNR, NA14DNR, G050NR.. the numbers 3, 7, 14, 21, etc. and letters "NR" indicate non-refundable advance purchase fares, which will require the "INVOL" indicator as I mentioned before or a rule-over endorsement).

Tickets issued outside the US or involve multiple international airlines and/or segments normally use the term: NONEND in the endorsement box.


User currently offlineHawaiian717 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3202 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4731 times:

Quoting Leskova (Reply 5):
016 = UA (or was that US? I keep mixing them up...)

016 is indeed UA. US is 037.


User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4690 times:

Thanks for all of the replies, it's adding some clarity to something I've always been a little flggy about.

Quoting AIR757200 (Reply 14):
Also, you normally do not see "NONEND" on US domestic tickets as "NONREF" is the term used. However, sometimes, NONREF isn't included even though it is, therefore the agent must research

On my leasure travel I'm used to seeing endorsements like

-/-NONREF/0VALAFTDEP/CHGFEE-/-

On my business travel, the endorsement I see most often is

-/-REFUNDABLE-/-

Lincoln



CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently offlineFI642 From Monaco, joined Mar 2005, 1079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4621 times:

NW/KL have a blanket endorsement, meaning they can essentially do as they please with each
others tickets.

If an endorsement is required for an off line carrier, a TTY message can be sent to ask for
an endorsement. Most carriers have a "shell" that can be filled out and sent.

Things used to be so easy. Not any more.



737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
User currently offlineAzstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 627 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 4562 times:

Endorsements are normally required only for international flights/carriers. Domestics carriers on domestic routes will get paid through the clearing house regardless of whether the ticket is marked "non endorsable" or not. If you have lifted the coupon of another carrier for transportation on your carrier, you will get paid. There is a FIM (flight interruption manifest)
rate which is 12% of the full Y fare (by agreement between carriers), and that's the rate that's applied if the ticket is "invol" for involuntary rerouting, or a zero fare mileage award ticket.

[Edited 2007-06-25 00:54:48]

[Edited 2007-06-25 00:57:30]

User currently offlineTymnBalewne From Bermuda, joined Mar 2005, 953 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 4540 times:

Quoting AIR757200 (Reply 13):

An endorsement is not needed if the airlines have an existing agreement, in terms of US legacy airlines, (US/AA/NW/UA/CO/DL) will accept each others full fare/unrestricted tickets and will be paid.

Thanks for this. My experience is with international ticketing/airlines.

C.



Dewmanair...begins with Dew
User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 4536 times:

Quoting Azstar (Reply 18):
There is a FIM (flight interruption manifest)
rate which is 12% of the full Y fare (by agreement between carriers), and that's the rate that's applied if the ticket is "invol" for involuntary rerouting, or a zero fare mileage award ticket.

Just because this is a question I've often wondered about... Earlier this year, I was booked to fly CLE-RDU-CLE on CO (actually ExpressJet); the outbound flight was overbooked and I took the bump. CO sent me instead CLE-PIT on COEx, then PIT-RDU on US... Am I understanding correctly, then, that CO paid US 12% of whatever the full 'Y' PIT-RDU fare was for transporting me? (I never thought it was free, but I have never found what the cost of doing this is) --- and how did they wind up with 12?

Lincoln



CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently offlineA330300 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 4501 times:

Here's a guide we use at Frontier when ticketing gets a bit confusing...(OA is "other airline")

Rule 120.20 – (Face Value)
Endorsement
There is no change of routing and the original flight coupon is accepted by OA.
Passenger uses same ticket flight coupon(s).
Accepting airline receives face value of coupon.
Coupon is endorsed to other airline. Write “Rule 120.20 F9 TO OA” in a blank area of the flight coupon.

Rule 240 (Involuntary Reroute)
Automated Reissue
When the origin or destination has changed or the original flight coupon(s) is not accepted by OA.
Accepting airline receives an agreed percentage of Y fare.
Original flight coupon is exchanged. New ticket displays “INVOL” as segment status.

Manual FIM (Flight Interruption Manifest)
Manual Reissue
When the origin or destination has changed or the original flight coupon(s) is not accepted by OA.
Accepting airline receives an agreed percentage of Y fare.
Passenger receives handwritten FIM flight coupon(s).
Passenger exchanges original flight coupon for FIM.

An automated reissue (Rule240) is preferred over a manual FIM.

[Edited 2007-06-25 02:29:57]

User currently offlineGuyBetsy1 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 840 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 4419 times:

If you know that something is going on with NW, then WHY keep booking on with NW?

User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 4398 times:

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 20):
(I never thought it was free, but I have never found what the cost of doing this is) --- and how did they wind up with 12?

There is no fixed percentage. Every airline pair has a bilaterally agreed level that they apply for cases like this.


User currently offlineGreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 607 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 4307 times:

Let's say I had a ticket from Airline A in Class X (not first) and paid $100. Airline A canceled the flight and endorsed my ticket over to Airline B. Would Airline A pay Airline B $100 or would it pay Airline B what airline B would charge a walkup customer for that seat, which could be $500?

25 Azstar : An airline can actually make money from a cancelled flight. If the passenger paid a low fare, it might be better to "rule" the ticket to another airl
26 Virginia : No, airlines have special fares for that (called SPA fares if IIRC). Very good example how it works with Frontier, tks. This how we are doing it with
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