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Comair 5637 Sits For Hours At JFK  
User currently offlineB6ramprat From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 64 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9059 times:

Just found this article online. I can't believe these people were even able to sit that long on such a small aircraft. With that said I give props to the passenger thats in the story that did something about the situation and was happy to see that the Port Authority and the TSA were so cool with him. Is it just me, or is situations like this happening now more then ever?


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/26/bu....html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin


Racecar spelled backwards spells Racecar
61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8952 times:

I haven't watched the video (wouldn't load), but from the article it seems the pilot tried to punish the person taking the video for questioning his imprisionment (pardon the hyperbole).

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
I can't believe these people were even able to sit that long on such a small aircraft.

There was no AC. Gotta love the supposed FA who blames pax for doing things like drinking water (thus making lines for restrooms longer).

From the article:

Quote:
police responded twice to the plane --- once to "evaluate" a sick teenager and a few hours later to deal with a report of a possible disruptive passenger (that would be Mr. Ollila).


Clearly it was possible to get people on/off the aircraft.


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 8912 times:

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
Just found this article online. I can't believe these people were even able to sit that long on such a small aircraft

This is becoming almost common place there has to be changes made to the way in which airlines are doing their business. Events likes this are only making an already once regarded industry seem even more of a joke. This aircraft was at JFK. There is plenty of space to remote park the aircraft and bus the passengers back to the terminal until this problem is resolved. Just disgusting.. That this is an accepted business practice in the USA.

Delta Air Lines is to blame for this. I have supported Delta in the past, however this is the sole responsibility of Delta Air Lines. They contract out the flying to another carrier. That carrier in turn does not deliver the product, or botches the product and image of Delta up. This is a disgusting abuse of passengers and a horrible mark on Delta Air Lines.

-JD


User currently offlineB6ramprat From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 64 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8859 times:

Without getting too detailed, people where sick and throwing up. Babies were onboard crying. The pilots have to grow a pair of balls and step up. Its there aircraft and there responsiblity of the safety of the passangers. As I'm sure all of you know that my company has had its share of problems with this but we learned. This needs to stop before god for bid someone has a heart attack and dies on one of theses flights. It could happen, especially with the elderly. I take alot of pride in the industry that I work in and reading things like this even if its another airline bothers me greatly.


Racecar spelled backwards spells Racecar
User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8838 times:

Quoting B6ramprat (Reply 3):
I take alot of pride in the industry that I work in and reading things like this even if its another airline bothers me greatly.

100% Agreed.. This only goes to make the US airline industry look even worse.. Instead or worrying about War, Congress should be putting measures into place to resolve issues like this from happening again and again.

-JD


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4973 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8838 times:
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Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 2):
There is plenty of space to remote park the aircraft

Where?


User currently offlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6118 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8798 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 2):
They contract out the flying to another carrier.

A carrier that they own. So, that means that they are sub-contracting out to themselves.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineFFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 733 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8760 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 4):
Instead or worrying about War,

Really?????!!! I still think "worrying" about war is a more urgent and important matter - and the war has to end. These two things, of course, can be done at the same time. But the war is a more important matter.


User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4296 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8722 times:

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 6):
A carrier that they own. So, that means that they are sub-contracting out to themselves.

Either way, its Delta's fault!!
Well, I'm not pointing fingers at DL because it seems that every major carrier has had a horror story or two over the last 6 months. Its more a symptom of the situation that our airports face every day (especially during hot, humid summer days). As sad as it is, I suspect that there will be several more by the time September gets here... spin the wheel and lets see which lucky airline gets the next notorious delay.....!

It's shaping up to be a rough year for the industry.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineGQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 8700 times:

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
I give props to the passenger

I don't. You have NO right to walk up and demand to speak with the captain, then make a demand to get off that aircraft. People know damn well that they can't approach the cockpit, especially in New York City. If you have something to say, that is what the flight attendant is for. Did someone drop the ball here? Yes, I do agree with you folks that Comair really screwed the pooch and that aircraft should've found a remote stand to park at and deplane the passengers. But for someone to basically barge into the cockpit, whether the door was open or not, whether he was actually standing in the cockpit or not, and "interview" the PIC...well...he got what he deserved when the police pulled him off the aircraft.

Oh, and since the video finally worked...

"They threatened us with security situations if anyone tries to get off the plane..."

Well no sh*t, Sherlock.  Yeah sure

A bad, avoidable situation? Yes. But for someone to do what this guy did? Completely unacceptable.

Situations like this are seeming to become a bit more common place, which isn't a good thing. Trust me, I get an ear full at work way out here in BFE Montana when flights get delayed, canceled, etc. But passengers need to remember to try and pack some common sense in their carry-ons, because over the last few years, common sense is something everyone seems to be forgetting at home more and more often...


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3671 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8674 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 5):
Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 2):
There is plenty of space to remote park the aircraft

Where?

It's a CRJ. Plenty of places they could park it at JFK. Here, for example: http://tinyurl.com/37aa84

They clearly were able to board people hours before the passengers got off, so it sounds like they were already parked somewhere safe for deboarding.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8639 times:

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 9):
You have NO right to walk up and demand to speak with the captain, then make a demand to get off that aircraft.

How many hours do you have to endure with hot air, vomiting pax, etc. etc. before it's okay to demand to be released? Why can't you demand to speak to the captain & demand to be let off (in this situation)?

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 9):
But for someone to basically barge into the cockpit,

I thought he never entered the cockpit.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 9):
whether the door was open or not, whether he was actually standing in the cockpit or not, and "interview" the PIC...well...he got what he deserved when the police pulled him off the aircraft.

Why can't someone question the captain on his abysmal treatment of the pax? Yes, the captain's treatment. The captain is the one who is responsible for the passengers, and, in the end, he/she is the final authority on the aircraft.


User currently offlineJFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1420 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8603 times:

It's not as if they were the only aircraft sitting that night. I was stuck on the B6 JFK-SEA that night and from the time I boarded until we took off was more than 4 hours. The fact that they had no A/C should be the big issue and the aircraft should not have left the gate.

User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8597 times:

4 hours for a thundery night at JFK happens to a lot of planes - this one just got attention.

Last week, an Aeroflot flight spent 6 hours waiting for takeoff before giving up.

-A

EDIT: The jetBlue flyer is right - there was no A/C, and that certainly makes it much worse. Comair shouldn't have dispatched the thing, especially knowing JFK was avering 180 minute delays.

[Edited 2007-06-26 19:38:21]


What now?
User currently offlineGQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8506 times:

Quoting Analog (Reply 11):
Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 9):
But for someone to basically barge into the cockpit,

I thought he never entered the cockpit.

Ok...let's nitpick here.  Yeah sure Even you quoted in the same sentence where I said whether he was standing in the cockpit or not... If you have ever looked at a CRJ cockpit, the seatbacks are right up against the bulkhead. To stand right outside the door is to be basically in the cockpit. I'm sorry, but the passenger shouldn't be there, no if's or but's. If the captain agrees to talk, it shouldn't be in the cockpit. The passenger bullied his way, and that's why he got interviewed. And believe you me, this will follow him for the rest of his life. Wouldn't surprise me if TSA has already listed his name on one of their lists...

Quoting Analog (Reply 11):
Why can't you demand to speak to the captain & demand to be let off (in this situation)?

Sure, you can make a demand. With the Flight Attendant. Then if the captain agrees to chat, it's his call. Not yours. Regardless. End of story. Yes the situation sounded horrible onboard, but again, these people payed to be transported somewhere, and that was what the Captain was trying to do. The situation deteriorated, a passenger pushed his way, and forced the Captain into scrubbing the flight. Not because people were ill, but because a passenger forced the Captain to call the police to remove this guy.

Now I'm getting a bit confused here. Maybe I'm coming off the wrong way. I'm not saying the flt should've been canceled long before, and I'm not saying it was a horrible situation on board, worsened by no AC. What I am saying is this passenger (because we must be polite) basically breached the cockpit, tried to bully the captain into doing what he wanted, and forced said captain to call the police. This guy deserved more than what he got from the cops and TSA.


User currently offlineULMFlyer From Brazil, joined Sep 2006, 475 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8494 times:

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 13):
4 hours for a thundery night at JFK happens to a lot of planes - this one just got attention.

Except for the air conditioning being broken, and then I think passengers should be deplaned, there's not much else that could have been done.

I flew out of EWR to TXL that exact same night and time and I can tell you that the thunderstorms were pretty bad. At one point, the winds were strong enough to make the captain come on the PA and say that it was ok that the 752 was rocking, but we should be seated. Overall, we sat for close to 5h, though thankfully with the APU running the packs.

We even had to return to the gate after about 3h to deplane a couple of passengers who were feeling ill. But the captain was really nice to them, gave us constant updates and despite my uninformed apprehension, we did not lose our place in the takeoff line (~15th). I asked an FA if there was a risk of the crew timing out, but she said they were fresh and the captain gave us a 99% chance of going.

Overall, I thought it was good, as I got to do some work and then by taking off around 11PM, to get some sleep which would have been impossible with a 6PM departure. But I felt really sorry for the hundreds of pax stranded in those little CO Express ERJs all over EWR.



Let's go Pens!
User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3447 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8428 times:

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 9):
Situations like this are seeming to become a bit more common place, which isn't a good thing. Trust me, I get an ear full at work way out here in BFE Montana when flights get delayed, canceled, etc. But passengers need to remember to try and pack some common sense in their carry-ons, because over the last few years, common sense is something everyone seems to be forgetting at home more and more often...

IMHO, common sense when trapped on a CRJ with no air conditioning, passengers vomiting, and babies crying for four hours is to try to and do something about it. That's exactly what this passenger did: He went up to the captain (who, as previously stated, has final authority over the aircraft) and asked him what was going on.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 14):
This guy deserved more than what he got from the cops and TSA.

He didn't get anything from the cops and TSA! They didn't press charges, and he even stayed with them a little longer to give a demonstration of his camera technology.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6731 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8425 times:

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 14):
The situation deteriorated, a passenger pushed his way, and forced the Captain into scrubbing the flight. Not because people were ill, but because a passenger forced the Captain to call the police to remove this guy.

I'll agree with you that it is wrong for a passenger to run up to the cockpit and speak to the Captain. However, how long should passengers have to wait for the Captain (and Comair) to use some common sense and scrub the flight? Do they have to wait till someone vomits? Passes out? Heart attack? It shouldn't have to reach that level in order to get a flight crew to use their brains and do something.

While the pilot is the one in command and has the final word, there comes a point when something must be done if the pilot's behavior is jeopardizing the health and safety of the passengers.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4973 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8408 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 10):
It's a CRJ. Plenty of places they could park it at JFK. Here, for example: http://tinyurl.com/37aa84

They clearly were able to board people hours before the passengers got off, so it sounds like they were already parked somewhere safe for deboarding.

I'm not excusing the Captain's behavior in this case...though it's not clear where the plane was this whole time....was it already in the t/o queue? Was it sitting back near Terminal 2? If it was already out in the queue or caught somewhere out in a congested ramp where it was difficult or nearly impossible to turn off into a separate area, etc. If that CRJ is in a queue of about 40-50 planes, it is not as easy to even move and find a spot to leave the queue and head back to the terminal....


User currently offlineEjmmsu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1692 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8349 times:

The moral of the story here is to never connect in NYC. If you are NYC O&D, you have no choice, unfortunately.


"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
User currently offlineEnginebird From United States of America, joined May 2007, 344 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8291 times:

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 16):
IMHO, common sense when trapped on a CRJ with no air conditioning, passengers vomiting, and babies crying for four hours is to try to and do something about it. That's exactly what this passenger did: He went up to the captain (who, as previously stated, has final authority over the aircraft) and asked him what was going on.

Spot on, exactly what i think, too.  bigthumbsup 

It's about time people don't endure just about anything the airlines do to them without complaining. Covered by some absurd notion of "security", passengers seem to have lost their right to acceptable service and information.


User currently offlineULMFlyer From Brazil, joined Sep 2006, 475 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 8180 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 18):
If it was already out in the queue or caught somewhere out in a congested ramp where it was difficult or nearly impossible to turn off into a separate area, etc. If that CRJ is in a queue of about 40-50 planes, it is not as easy to even move and find a spot to leave the queue and head back to the terminal....

I can see your point and I must say I am unfamiliar with JFK, but I believe there are always alternatives. As I said in my previous post, we were ~#15 at EWR when we had to deplane two passengers. Although I wrote that we returned to the gate, that's not accurate. The captain managed to taxi the 752 to a spot on the ramp where stairs were brought to the door in front of row 7. Then, the captain personally walked back from the cockpit, opened the door and saw them off to a car that was waiting. After that, we taxied to an area nicknamed the "Bullpen" (according to the captain, in long gone less busy times, ramp rats used to play ball there). And we remained #15 for takeoff and didn't fall back to #50 or so. Very professional service from CO.

I suppose Comair could have done better.



Let's go Pens!
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8136 times:

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 14):
but because a passenger forced the Captain to call the police to remove this guy.

How did the passenger force the captain to do this? The captain could have ordered the guy to sit down and then closed the cockpit door. The captain was the one who allowed the silliness to continue (I cannot get the video, this is from the article).

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 14):
basically breached the cockpit,

Did he enter the cockpit? Did he force his way in? No. No. From the article "stood a few feet from the open cockpit door" The captain was the one who placed everyone at risk by leaving the door open.  Yeah sure

He also "decided to make his move at around 9.30 p.m, when the captain announced that the crew had "timed out." " So the captain would no longer be the captain anyways.

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 14):
tried to bully the captain into doing what he wanted

Bully the captain into letting people off the aircraft?

How many hours does one have to be held in an aircraft w/o a/c before one is allowed to ask to be let off? Seriously. The answer cannot be never...


User currently offlineJFK69 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1420 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8035 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 18):
I'm not excusing the Captain's behavior in this case...though it's not clear where the plane was this whole time....was it already in the t/o queue? Was it sitting back near Terminal 2? If it was already out in the queue or caught somewhere out in a congested ramp where it was difficult or nearly impossible to turn off into a separate area, etc. If that CRJ is in a queue of about 40-50 planes, it is not as easy to even move and find a spot to leave the queue and head back to the terminal....

I was thinking the same thing when I was sitting on Board. I looked out the window and looked all around to wonder what would happen if we had to move. We were located on a taxiway between the 4's and 22's. If we had to move it probably would have forced them to move 15 planes with it. Def. hard enough in the control tower without having to start move aircrafts around again.

In regards to accosting the pilot....I see both sides. The passenger should have spoken to the pilot and found out what the situation was. If the passenger did not get an answer he felt would suffice, he should have called COMAIR's 800 number and explained the situation to them. Thene he should have alerted the pilot that he would call the port authority if nothing will be done. (That is how I would have done it anyhow)


User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7987 times:

Does Comair even have an 800 number? Delta's reservations 800 # would be useless in this situation, I suspect.


What now?
25 Crewchief : I am so sick of hearing the airline apologists either blame the passengers or cry about procedure whenever an airline abuses -- not mistreats, but abu
26 Dbo861 : First of all, I'm surprised at the poor, extremely biased journalism of the NY Times. This article is in the Business section, but it reads like it's
27 Post contains images Analog : I'd go to jail if I did that. Was the aircraft in question taxiing? If so, why was the cockpit door open? The aircraft in question was not flying (no
28 Nickstyro : Its unfortunately not up to Comair to cancel the flight, that right belongs to Delta. Most of the delays in the Northeast (JFK.LGA,NEW,in particular)
29 Drewwright : The captain may not have the authority to cancel a flight, but s/he has the power to create a situation that would force the hand of those with that
30 Iflyac : I saw the video and those passengers sure didn't look too comfortable to me. Even if de-boarding wasn't an option, couldn't they have at least opened
31 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : its a catch 22 because if the plane dosnt try to take off people will be mad they didnt try and made them wait in the terminal and if they sit there t
32 Lincoln : While it may be arguable that movement on the ground for purposes of flight is not 'flight time' I would posit that 14 CFR 121.533 gives the PIC / di
33 Higherflyer : How do you come up with that idea? The captain was in command of an aircraft stuck in a departure line at JFK. Weather was horrible that night and de
34 Smcmac32msn : So sorry to break the news to you... but Common Sense died a few years back. Today, we mourn the passing of an old friend by the name of Common Sense
35 Arrow : Which says far more about the TSA and the ridiculous security regime we all endure now every time we get on an airplane, than it does about the passe
36 VgnAtl747 : Incorrect! Comair has it's own operations control center that handles Comair flights. In the event of a mechanical delay, crew delay, crew timeout, e
37 Drewwright : It is really quite simple. Pilots get called into the CP office for lots of things, often trivial things. Given the amount of publicity this incident
38 Galapagapop : The passenger in the article uploaded the video to youtube
39 Goldenshield : What an ass. He talked about protocol, and yet, didn't follow protocol himself.
40 Lincoln : The passenger is a little too agressive for my taste, but the captain's "eh, I can't do anything" attitude is driving me crazy. "Just call Delta" "I k
41 UN_B732 : Is it justme, or does it look like they're parked at the gate 25 area at JFK in the end? If so, WTF was going on? They never taxied? -A
42 Higherflyer : I hear what you are saying and am sure that the captain will be speaking with someone about this situation, there will be no carpet dance with the ch
43 GQfluffy : Do I need to say "Oh wow, maybe I was right?" This passenger is way out of line. The pilot needed to be more firm and tell that prick to sit down. It
44 Post contains links Flydl2atl : Oh wow...look who this tool works for: http://www.vio-pov.com/ Gee...I wonder if the pilot saw the camera.
45 APFPilot1985 : Yeah the guy is an ass, the pilot was put in a crappy situation by his company.
46 OPNLguy : PICs don't cancel flights. I can understand a F/A not knowing this, but I find it a bit odd that an F/O doesn't. I hope you visit your airline's disp
47 Smcmac32msn : At the beginning of the video the captain can be heard asking "Are you recording?" The prick says "Your damn right I am." The captain says "Then I'm
48 BOACVC10 : The PAX is not working for the airline.. he doesn't know "protocol" other than to not enter the cockpit IMHO. He didn't enter the cockpit, and the ai
49 Goldenshield : Easy with the caps. You'll blow a vein. Now, as far as serious matters, yes, they should be brought forward, but vomiting and babies crying are NOT s
50 Positiverate : A well crafted thoughtful post from someone who knows. Thanks OPNL.
51 OPNLguy : Thank you kindly...
52 Analog : If people are vomiting because of the condition of the aircraft, then it's the crew's job to fix the situation. Sometimes (turbulence) it really is b
53 OPNLguy : ..which is admittedly a completely subjective judgement based on the understanding and patience levels of the individual passenger. The "handled prop
54 Analog : True, but if there are thunderstorms forecast in the immediate future (translation: expect sitting on the ground for a while) and you go out with ins
55 We're Nuts : I don't claim to have all the answers like your average "first class member", but the only reason I've ever encountered for not letting passengers off
56 OPNLguy : NWS TAFs (forecasts) are not Swiss Railway timetables. Just because an airport is calling for the chance of 2 miles visibility in thunderstorms betwe
57 Analog : I disagree. If thunderstorms are forecast for the immediate future (say a 40% chance in the next 2 hours, numbers out of my @ss), then one should exp
58 APFPilot1985 : That's not how TAFs are though for example look at the recent one for here at APF KAPF 282354Z 290024 VRB04KT P6SM -SHRA SCT027 SCT060 BKN100 TEMPO 0
59 OPNLguy : With all due respect, your analysis is flawed (as is your simplistic example) because you don't have any have operational experience within an indust
60 Analog : Delta/Comair don't rely only on TAFs, do they? Exactly, you never know. You plan for the likely and the possible. If the likely and possible involve
61 Goldenshield : Aye, one SHOULD expect them, but as OPNL said, you shouldn't expect to all occur within that time frame, and just because it's in the forecast doesn'
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