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DC-10 Fire Bomber Grounded After Grazing Tree Tops  
User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5772 posts, RR: 15
Posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 19886 times:

The DC-10 fire tanker made an emergency landing yesterday at Victorville after encountering turbulence fighting a fire. The aircraft struck tree tops when it lost some altitude. The aircraft is currently undergoing inspections.

http://www.vvdailypress.com/news/fir...3___article.html/tanker_plane.html


"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 19804 times:

Hitting trees with a DC-10 is not for the faint of heart. That is some hairy flying!! Good job, crew!

User currently offlineBigAppleCoder From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 19772 times:

Whew!!!! Way too f**king close  scared . I'm happy to hear they're safe.

I wonder if this close call means they'll re-evaluate the use of the DC-10 in a firefighting role?


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2127 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 19771 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 1):
Hitting trees with a DC-10 is not for the faint of heart. That is some hairy flying!! Good job, crew!

Man, you say this like it was somewhat intentional and to be proud of. Something went very very wrong. One can usually expect such turbulence (if that's indeed what to attribute as a factor) when flying low level over fires, but I will suggest that any recovery after descending to the point where metal meets wood may be due more to fortune than skill.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8198 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 19678 times:

Right, I just meant good job surviving. They were very close to dying... way way too close...

In firefighting, do these downdrafts happen a lot?


User currently offline6YJJK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 19573 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 1):
Hitting trees with a DC-10 is not for the faint of heart.

I'd rather hit a tree with a DC-10 than with a Cessna 150! It's the poor trees I feel sorry for, after an argument with a -10 - I bet they came off worse...  Wink


User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 19520 times:

Quoting 6YJJK (Reply 5):
I'd rather hit a tree with a DC-10 than with a Cessna 150! It's the poor trees I feel sorry for, after an argument with a -10 - I bet they came off worse... Wink

Funny thing, in this wacky world we live in today, I was expecting the DC-10 to have been grounded following complaints and protests from environmentalists upset about the damaged trees.

Kudos to the crew for quick thinking and skill in recovering.


User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1612 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 19437 times:

I saw this:

http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/a...reliminary_data/media/D_0626_N.txt

and wondered if it was the fire fighter.

I don't imagine this will help their federal case.

M


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6264 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 19378 times:

Hmmm....wonder how the CF6s fared in treetop injestion tests?  Wink


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offline6YJJK From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 19356 times:

Quoting Khobar (Reply 6):
I was expecting the DC-10 to have been grounded following complaints and protests from environmentalists upset about the damaged trees

That'd be just like 'em - let thousands of trees burn because somebody broke one.  Yeah sure That, and the carbon emissions from such an old and inefficient plane (hell, any plane), which are going to be sooooo much greater than the carbon emissions from a forest fire!  Angry


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 19193 times:

Wow, what a hairy time it must have been hitting those trees! I bet there were multiple requests for clean underwear.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineAirfoilsguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 19135 times:

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 7):
I saw this:

http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/a...reliminary_data/media/D_0626_N.txt

and wondered if it was the fire fighter.

There is only one person flying that thing?


User currently offlineONTFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 379 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 18975 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
In firefighting, do these downdrafts happen a lot?

With these large brush fires, yes they happen frequently.

ONT



Doin' just fine thanks...
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4967 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 18757 times:

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 11):
There is only one person flying that thing?

No. That's a mistake in the preliminary data.


User currently offlineThreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2127 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 18618 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
In firefighting, do these downdrafts happen a lot?



Quoting ONTFlyer (Reply 12):
With these large brush fires, yes they happen frequently.

Sort of. I'll expand upon ONTFlyer's remark by saying that ANY time you fly that close to uneven terrain on a day with weather that is conducive to active wildfires (warm temps, unstable airmass, lots of air movement, etc) then you will get up and downdrafts, often unexpected. Mechanical turbulence is also a prime factor when that close to terrain, but is not a product of the fire itself, it's just coincident with it. Generally speaking, when one flies directly above an active fire or through the smoke column itself, you find yourself moving rapidly UPwards and often with violent 'bumps' for good measure.
It's when you see the arm-diameter branches being thrown above your wingtips that you want to reconsider your location.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineA380US From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 18390 times:

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 13):
Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 11):
There is only one person flying that thing?

No. That's a mistake in the preliminary data.

it looks like its saying one injury



www.JandACosmetics.com
User currently offlineIwok From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 18107 times:

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 14):
It's when you see the arm-diameter branches being thrown above your wingtips that you want to reconsider your location.

 rotfl  Ahh yeah, pull up now please, we almost hit a squirrel.  Smile

iwok


User currently offlineKuna From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 279 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17758 times:

Is it me, or does that -10 look like an ex NW -10? The tail looks to have the red tail.

Edit: Glad everyone is ok, and they successfully landed.

[Edited 2007-06-27 07:19:31]


Pinnacle Airlines
User currently offlineFLY2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 17726 times:

I hope they disarmed the GPWS, because If I was the GPWS, i'd sure as hell be bitching at them constantly. Big grin

User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5647 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17671 times:

Quoting Khobar (Reply 6):
Funny thing, in this wacky world we live in today, I was expecting the DC-10 to have been grounded following complaints and protests from environmentalists upset about the damaged trees



Quoting 6YJJK (Reply 9):
That'd be just like 'em - let thousands of trees burn because somebody broke one. That, and the carbon emissions from such an old and inefficient plane (hell, any plane), which are going to be sooooo much greater than the carbon emissions from a forest fire!



Quoting Iwok (Reply 16):
Ahh yeah, pull up now please, we almost hit a squirrel.

Did they kick up Bugs Bunny's house by chance?



Next trip: SLC-LAX-JFK-LAX-SLC on AA, gotta say goodbye to my beloved 762!
User currently offlineAndrewUber From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2528 posts, RR: 41
Reply 20, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17630 times:

From the article posted by thread starter:

It has not yet been certified by the U.S. Forest Service, so on Forest Service lands, such as the site of the Angora Fire at Lake Tahoe, it is not authorized to fight fires.

Isn't that great. Red tape keeps this aircraft on the ground while hundreds of homes burn in Tahoe. WTF.



I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3320 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17548 times:

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 20):
Isn't that great. Red tape keeps this aircraft on the ground while hundreds of homes burn in Tahoe. WTF.

I think its a response to some planes that broke up in midair doing work for the forest service.

and honestly while I appreciate the thought, I'm not sure I would want a DC-10 doing this work.

Maybe time to spend more time convincing 742/743 conversions into firefighting/emergancy response planes? Yah I know they are HUGE... but that reduces the need feed the engines small wildlife flying so low, and alot more payload.


User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4967 posts, RR: 18
Reply 22, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17523 times:

Quoting A380US (Reply 15):
it looks like its saying one injury

Indeed, it looks that way, but I'm familiar with the format of the reports. It should list the number of total crew there, then break out in subsequent columns the number and severity of that number that were injured. It says 1 in that column, which means one crew member total on board, which is wrong.

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 20):
Isn't that great. Red tape keeps this aircraft on the ground while hundreds of homes burn in Tahoe. WTF.

Worse, the Evergreen Supertanker 747, which is bigger, IS approved by the tanker board and DOES have its FAA cert, and is grounded by further red tape from the Fire-O-Crats while those houses burn. Incident commanders keep refusing to call in these planes because they don't believe that they can do a good job, but when they are basically forced to do so, they then express wonder and amazement at the actual performance of the aircraft, as they did regarding Tanker 910 on the latest fire, before the mishap.

Quoting Kuna (Reply 17):
Is it me, or does that -10 look like an ex NW -10? The tail looks to have the red tail.

That's the livery protocol for firefighting air tankers. The thing was all-white before.


User currently offlineAndrewUber From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2528 posts, RR: 41
Reply 23, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17422 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 21):
I think its a response to some planes that broke up in midair doing work for the forest service.

You are probably right. But in my personal opinion - it should be more prudent to inspect the aircraft to prevent in-flight breakups instead of grounding them to preveng in-flight breakups.

I guess a better way to say it is - if my home in Tahoe was in danger, I'd be extremely pissed to know that these capable aircraft were sitting on ramps, unable to help due to a slow approval process by the USFS.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 22):
It says 1 in that column, which means one crew member total on board, which is wrong.

LOL I noticed that too - you would think of all people the FAA might know that it takes more than one person to fly a DC10!



I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
User currently offlineKuna From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 279 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (6 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 17399 times:

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 22):
Quoting Kuna (Reply 17):
Is it me, or does that -10 look like an ex NW -10? The tail looks to have the red tail.

That's the livery protocol for firefighting air tankers. The thing was all-white before.

Ahh ok, was not sure, thought with the recent retiring of the -10 from NW, it was a possibility.



Pinnacle Airlines
25 XT6Wagon : I think why is they put in place holds and what not due to the sudden insight that firefighting has more in common with combat maneuvers than freight
26 FATFlyer : The latest is that the aircraft is out of action for at least 30 days, what a start to its contract with the state of California. Word is it has damag
27 Jetfixr757 : Guys, it's all about money, what does it cost to operate the 74, they just don't want to pay, OR, the fire is not close to the right person's house ye
28 F9Animal : Thank goodness they were able to recover. Imagine the disaster of losing the plane, but the fire it would have created if it had not recovered. Good j
29 BeechNut : Call me skeptical but I rather doubt the DC-10 was designed with this kind of low-level, high-stress work (usually in turbulence) in mind. When this t
30 SEPilot : Add to that, whenever you have a violent updraft you will also have a downdraft (less intense but larger) nearby; a violent downdraft (like in a thun
31 Cpsarras : One thing I never understood is why hasn't the fire-fighting authorities/agencies invested in the excellent Canadair or Beriev firebomber planes. Thes
32 DL021 : Wow. Incredible. I did not know they were going to operate that airplane THAT low to the ground....I was under the impression that they were going to
33 Aeroman444 : Omega Air owns the Dc-10 Tankers
34 Cedarjet : Grow up. Why do you think we are having so many fires these days?
35 Lemurs : One thing to keep in mind is that they want to make sure these planes are safe to operate for extended periods of time in intensely dangerous situati
36 Shane : The "wacky" thing would be to NOT be an environmentalist knowing what we know now in this day & age.
37 Spacecadet : I'm pretty sure it's not red tape that's keeping it on the ground, it's structural damage due to hitting trees while fighting a fire that's keeping i
38 Flighty : Yeah, definitely. The DC-10 is strong, we can assume. Even this incident probably makes the DC-10 designers (if they are still alive) swell with prid
39 Post contains links Wjcandee : At least with the Evergreen 747 Supertanker, the "work" it will do is entirely within its normal flight envelope. It makes its passes straight and le
40 SEPilot : It's not the maneuvering that's hard on the plane it's flying at low level (denser air) and in extreme turbulence. The airframe was never designed fo
41 MCIGuy : After seeing that C-130 crash and now this, I have to wonder if a fully FBW aircraft wouldn't be better suited to this role. One with it's own code fo
42 NIKV69 : If I remember correctly its orange and white. I saw it at Victorville but a pic was impossible as it was wedged between 2 buildings. Very interesting!
43 CuriousFlyer : I agree, those Canadairs are designed for this, have been doing a great job in France for about 30 years, they are not recycled old airplanes. Howeve
44 6YJJK : That's completely uncalled-for. Perhaps you might consider taking some of your own advice? I don't know. Would you care to enlighten us all, from you
45 Post contains links Lostturttle : Global Emergency Response markets the IL 76, carries 100,000 to 135,000 lbs of liquid, more here.......... http://www.waterbomber.com/about.htm
46 Cpsarras : That's true, anytime you push the envelope accidents can happen if not careful! The newer CL-415's have some stability enhancing devices on the wings
47 Miamiair : The seat cushion had to be surgically removed from the F/E's ass... All kidding aside, it takes a special quality to fly down in the weeds. There is
48 Threepoint : I can say that whether or not that one plane was flying, those homes would still have burned. All the king's horses and his airtankers too have very
49 Post contains links Wjcandee : You have said this before, and were then rebutted by 757DC10fltmech, who cited these quotes and articles: "Testing with loads showed that Tanker 910
50 SEPilot : Perhaps I misspoke when I said the turbulence was beyond what the plane was certified for, but it is certainly much different than the plane was desi
51 Post contains images Cpsarras : Greece is not a humid country BTW, it is very similar to the Western US in terms of climate. In some areas it is a mirror image of California. And it
52 Threepoint : I agree wholeheartedly that the MD designers & FAA certifiers never envisioned this type of mission when originally certifying the DC-10. But the tur
53 Post contains links Threepoint : I am not swayed by quotes in mainstream media articles, nor by 757DC10fltmech. I am speaking with two decades of aerial firefighting opinion. Almost
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