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Know Your Florida Airline History...Some Questions  
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 27
Posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3123 times:

Put some sunshine on your mind...I've been unable (thus far) to accurately answer some questions I've had...

1. The BIG question: Between A^A, Southwest, Spirit, Delta, and Airtran (let me know if I left someone out), who has the most routes to Florida from other states?

2. And who is king of intra-Florida routes?

3. Are there any widebodies on routes between two Florida cities? (I can only think of one: A^A A300 MIA-ORL.)

4. How large was Air Florida (route structure) and what routes did they place their DC-10 on?

5. Wasn't National pretty large in Florida as well? And which FL routes had their DC-10s and 747s?

6. Was PanAm already large in FL before they took over National?

7. Eastern's FL routes and a/c were taken over by *who* exactly? I'm sure PeoplExpress plays into this somehow...


Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNavairjax From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3066 times:

Because of their MIA hub it is a good bet that AA has the most routes to FL from other states. Southwest does serve an unusual mix of FL markets and is either at or near the top in passenger count at a number of their stations. Although not a large network you did indeed forget a major FL player: JetBlue. Of course to a much lesser extent I'd also throw Allegiant into the mix.

Southwest is likely the winner of the intrastate traffic, and aside from AA (TPA-MIA, MCO-MIA) is the only airline to use mainline aircraft on intrastate routes.

The single daily A300 is the only widebody intrastate route. DL did at one point run a number of 767s from ATL to Florida but I am not sure if that is still the case.

The last few question are a little too far back for me, although AA may have taken over quite a bit of EAs MIA operation. Ultimately ValuJet/Airtran stepped in and started flying a number of old EA routes


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3002 times:

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
7. Eastern's FL routes and a/c were taken over by *who* exactly? I'm sure PeoplExpress plays into this somehow...

Nobody.
In time American filled the void in MIA and built a hub. Some of the L1011s went to Delta. 757s went to America West, USAir and a couple of others. Northwest and Delta took some 727s, I don't know about the 9s.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineJogales From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 437 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2984 times:

Quoting Navairjax (Reply 1):

The single daily A300 is the only widebody intrastate route. DL did at one point run a number of 767s from ATL to Florida but I am not sure if that is still the case.

They still send plenty of 763s to TPA, and even 1 or 2 764s daily.

Josh



-
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2980 times:

Quoting Navairjax (Reply 1):
The last few question are a little too far back for me, although AA may have taken over quite a bit of EAs MIA operation.

AA acquired virtually all of EA's MIA-Central/South America routes which was the origin of AA's major Latin America hub at MIA. EA had acquired Braniff's South America routes shortly before Braniff went banrupt and shut down.

Air Florida acquired their few leased DC-10-30s for their MIA-LGW/AMS/BRU routes which began in 1981.

EA also operated quite a few widebodes on sectors within Florida. I remember flying on a EA A300 in the mid-1980s that operated MIA-FLL-JFK.

National was very big in Florida and MIA was of course their headquarters. I flew on NA a few times and always thought their service was excellent. Pan Am had a fairly sizable operation in MIA before they bough NA, mainly to the Caribbean and South America. PA only bought NA to permiti them to connect their major international hubs since at that time PA was prohibited from carrying domestic traffic within the US (except to Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto Rico). But NA's route network, mainly up and down the east coast and across the southern US to LAX/SFO, didn't fit PA's network very well. And about a year after PA bought NA, US domestic deregulation arrived and everybody could fly wherever they wanted, so PA could have saved a lot of money if they'd stayed away from NA and waited a little while longer. NA also operated from MIA to London, Paris, Amsteram, Frankfurt and Zurich for varying periods during the 1970s with B747s and DC-10-30s.


User currently offlineRwy04LGA From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2935 times:

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
5. Wasn't National pretty large in Florida as well? And which FL routes had their DC-10s

I flew 'Barbara' from TPA-JFK 12/17/1971..I think 4 days after introduction on that route. BOAC 747-136 JFK-LHR followed later that night. My first 2 wide-bodies.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8690 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2910 times:

Well at MCO we have DL 767's and AA A300's to MIA, and ATL.

Hunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineLGA777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1149 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2899 times:

Quoting Rwy04LGA (Reply 5):
I flew 'Barbara' from TPA-JFK 12/17/1971..I think 4 days after introduction on that route

Rwy04LGA, it's pretty scarey that I can remember this bit I think the NA DC-10 start of service was 12/15/1971 so you where probably on the third day, Flt 24 MIA-TPA-JFK. I flew on Barbara aka N60NA (first of several times) a few weeks before service started on a 30 min sightseeing flight around Tampa, good times for sure.

Regards

LGA777


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2872 times:

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
Wasn't National pretty large in Florida as well? And which FL routes had their DC-10s and 747s?

NA had great presence in Florida. Their widebodies could be found in All the Major Florida markets of the day ---MIA,TPA,MCO,FLL,JAX,PBI.

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
Was PanAm already large in FL before they took over National?

As already stated, they were in MIA doing the Carribean and Central/South America.

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
How large was Air Florida (route structure) and what routes did they place their DC-10 on

I remember when they first got started flying between St. Petersburg (PIE) , MCO and MIA using a Boeing 707-320 Pure-Jet in the fall of 1972. The fares were dirt cheap $12.00 or something like that, but I'll bet that 'ole 707 wasn't! Not a lot of folks took it seriously in the beginning as I never remember a full flight. By the time they came to their senses and replaced the 707's with L-188's people were starting to use them.I remember the L-188's having pretty good loads in the mid-70's.In 1978 I remember their DC-9's being full most of the time MIA-TPA-MIA. At the time of deregulation they really expanded (by then serving at least a dozen or more cities in Florida) eventually even serving some Central American and Carribean destinations as well as LGW. By the time of the disaster up in Washington,D.C. in the winter of 1982 they were really going strong. The rest (as they say) is history.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineLGA777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1149 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2869 times:

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
Wasn't National pretty large in Florida as well? And which FL routes had their DC-10s and 747s?

DIA, I will start with the two NAL 747's. One season NA operated a 747 MIA-TPA-IAH-MIA, continued to LHR.
For several years NA operated a 747 MIA-TPA-LAS-TPA-MIA Thursdays and Sundays only, and where often full. Allthough not intra-Florida MIA-JFK-MIA Flts 98-601 where almost always a 747 during the types days with NAL..
No other wide body operated anywhere near as much intra-Florida service as NAL DC-10's Routes included MIA-FLL-LGA-FLL-MIA , MIA-PBI-MCO-JFK, MIA-MCO-TPA-MSY-LAX, LAX-TPA-MIA, SFO-LAS-TPA-MIA, EWR-MCO-TPA-MSY-LAX, LAX-MSY-TPA-MCO-PBI-MIA, MIA-TPA-MSY-IAH-LAS, LAS-IAH-MSY-TPA-MIA, MIA-TPA-JFK, JFK-TPA-MIA, there where more but this is what I can remember, it was a long time ago.I can remember schedules in the 70's where there where as many as 6 DC-10's a day each way between MIA-TPA.

Regards

LGA777


User currently offlineDeltaGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2847 times:

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
2. And who is king of intra-Florida routes?

Well, Gulfstream International of course! Endless flights from TPA and PBI to all sorts of places in FL.

DeltaGuy


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2794 times:

Quoting Rwy04LGA (Reply 5):
Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
5. Wasn't National pretty large in Florida as well? And which FL routes had their DC-10s

I flew 'Barbara' from TPA-JFK 12/17/1971

"Time" magazine article from 1971 on National's "Fly Me" ad campaign, and their aircraft fleet bearing girl's names. If nothing else it generated a lot of free advertising. I guess they didn't have any male flight attendants then.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,903213,00.html

Here's "Barbara" (NA's first DC-10-10) although when the photo was taken it had been renamed "Suzanne" for some reason. Also same aircraft in its subsequent liveries. AA bought all 15 ex-NA DC-10s (11 -10s and 4 -30s) from PA in 1984.


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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.
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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



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Photo © Howard Chaloner
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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.



And here's Linda:


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Photo © Ray Pettit



User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
Wasn't National pretty large in Florida as well? And which FL routes had their DC-10s and 747s?

Not exactly on topic, however the post jarred my memory---and I have such fond memories of NA.

I remember standing at the NA counter in MIA chatting with the agents a few days after the PA buy-out. They were just floored.Like a major death had occured, which I suppose was true. I don't remember any of the NA folks thinking there was going to be any pie- in- the- sky for them within the PA fold. PA might have been the "World's Most Experienced" but they sure weren't the most experienced in the U.S. domestic market. What a mess they made of NA's system.

NA was a great carrier. I flew them often as I could, back in the day. The NA folks were a great team.
 twocents 



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineAnalog From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2722 times:

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):

7. Eastern's FL routes and a/c were taken over by *who* exactly? I'm sure PeoplExpress plays into this somehow...

Do you mean domestic or international routes? I was under the impression that domestic routes can't really be "taken over" as such, as any airline can just start service between two cities. This is after deregulation and ignoring special cases such as >1500 miles from DCA (does not apply here).

Did Eastern have aircraft dedicated to Florida routes? If not, how could you "take over" those aircraft wrt Florida?


User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2592 times:

Quoting Analog (Reply 13):
Do you mean domestic or international routes? I was under the impression that domestic routes can't really be "taken over" as such, as any airline can just start service between two cities.

Good point. I should had said "elected to take over" or something along those lines...
And I was thinking more about national routings.



***Thanks everyone...great input/info.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 8):
I remember when they first got started flying between St. Petersburg (PIE) , MCO and MIA using a Boeing 707-320 Pure-Jet in the fall of 1972.

Yes, indeed...
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Photo © Bob Garrard




Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2578 times:

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
4. How large was Air Florida (route structure) and what routes did they place their DC-10 on?

In addition to the international routes that someone else already mentioned, we sometimes ran them MIA-EWR, as well as on charters within the USA.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Air Florida acquired their few leased DC-10-30s for their MIA-LGW/AMS/BRU routes which began in 1981.

N1035F was the first one, and we acquired three others from Transamerica, registered N101TV, N102TV, and N103TV. All were DC-10-30s, and N1035F was all-coach seating and thus saw alot of military charter work once the other three (with different class seating) came online.

I'm pretty sure N1035F later ended up as a freighter conversion that went to Fedex, but I'm not sure about the TV birds...


User currently offlineCody From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1932 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2572 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 15):
All were DC-10-30s, and N1035F was all-coach seating

I have photos of Air Florida DC-10's in San Jose, Costa Rica and Montego Bay as well. Also, my 1981 OAG shows them flying DC-10's once a day between FLL and MIA.

Do you happen to remember if all three TransAmerica DC-10's leased to Air Florida had the Upper Class seating?


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2558 times:

Quoting Cody (Reply 16):
Do you happen to remember if all three TransAmerica DC-10's leased to Air Florida had the Upper Class seating?

To the best of my memory, they all did.

The entire "Upper Class" moniker was problematic from a PR standpoint, since it inferred that if one wasn't sitting there, it meant they were "lower" class. More than one passenger noticed...  Wink


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2430 times:

Ok I am going to take a shot at this. I didn't read anyone elses answers because I want to try these myself first.

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
1. The BIG question: Between A^A, Southwest, Spirit, Delta, and Airtran (let me know if I left someone out), who has the most routes to Florida from other states?

I will say Southwest. Southwest has huge operations out of MCO, FLL and TPA already plus flights out of JAX, RSW and PBI also. Infact Southwest has plans of taking over all of Airside 2 eventually at MCO and wants to have flights from MCO to just about every city it serves. Spirit isn't all that big in Florida despite being based at FLL. Delta used to be the big dog here. AA of course is big out of MIA, but not that big elsewhere. A lot of AA's stuff also is International out of MIA.

2. And who is king of intra-Florida routes?

Gulfstream, which operates as Continental Connection, followed by Freedom Airlines (Delta Connection)

3. Are there any widebodies on routes between two Florida cities? (I can only think of one: A^A A300 MIA-ORL.)

Well you are wrong since ORL is Orlando Executive, but if you said MIA-MCO, then you would be right. I believe that is the only widebody flight between Florida cities unless you are talking about cargo - because Fed Ex flies A310s between MCO and TPA

4. How large was Air Florida (route structure) and what routes did they place their DC-10 on?

Before my time really, but I think the DC-10 was actually used overseas to England

5. Wasn't National pretty large in Florida as well? And which FL routes had their DC-10s and 747s?

They were based in Miami. I know National flew DC-10s and 747s out of MIA. I think the DC-10s used MCO shortly before National merged, like right after they moved to MCO from ORL. Of course when National was at ORL, it was their props.

6. Was PanAm already large in FL before they took over National?

I don't believe so. I think they took over National to have more access to Caribbean and South America.

7. Eastern's FL routes and a/c were taken over by *who* exactly? I'm sure PeoplExpress plays into this somehow...

Since Eastern was liquidated and didn't merge, they really weren't taken over per say. The DC-9s went to Northwest, the 757s I think went to US. Route wise, no one really got Eastern's actual routes I don't think. AA built up at MIA after Eastern and Pan Am's demise as there was room for someone to greatly expand there with two big players gone within a year of each other. Eastern was the "official airline of Disney" in the 1980s at MCO, but in the 1990s it was Delta who made MCO into a minihub. Eastern served a lot of Florida airports too. DAB had 40 flights a day for a while, even Titusville had service from Eastern, which no one flew their again scheduled after Eastern. People Express would NOT play into it as People Express was absorbed into Continental before Eastern died.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2423 times:

Quoting Navairjax (Reply 1):
The single daily A300 is the only widebody intrastate route. DL did at one point run a number of 767s from ATL to Florida but I am not sure if that is still the case.

Yeah but ATL isn't in Florida. But they still fly 763s and 764s many times daily between MCO and ATL.

In terms of domestic widebodies to MCO from other parts of the USA - well SJU (Puerto Rico is part of USA) and MIA send in A300s, many times daily from SJU. American frequently sends in a 767-300 sub from DFW too. I haven't seen a widebody from UA or NW for ages at MCO. US sometimes sends a 762 to MCO from CLT or PHL. Continental occassionaly sends a 764 from IAH or EWR.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 2):
I don't know about the 9s.

They are with Northwest, at least the DC-9-50s


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