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Parallel Ops At Cleveland?  
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6867 posts, RR: 7
Posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1226 times:

It seems the centerlines of the two longest runways at Cleveland are 441-442 feet apart. To what extent are they used simultaneously? I assume jets can't land alongside any other landing aircraft, and I suspect they can't do simultaneous takeoffs either, but can they land alongside a departing aircraft? Can they depart alongside a landing aircraft?

If they can, how can this be legal under the rules given in
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp3/atc0308.html#3-8-3

And if they can't, what's the point of having two runways at all?

Earlier discussion at
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/4275/

8 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCle_tim From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1177 times:

The aircraft taxi into position and hold until the aircraft landing on either 5R/5L or 23R/23L lands. I forget what the exact term for this is but it was in the paper a year or two ago. Parallel landing isn't done, isn't allowed, but I believe is one of the items they are trying to do in the runway expansions. Over the weekend there was really poor visibility and changing winds forcing aircraft to land on Runway 28 which is barely used, is 6,000 feet long and runs parallel to Brookpark Rd. The only aircraft that use that runway sometimes are the Beechcraft but I heard several 737s land on it on Saturday.

What a coincidence - I live in CLE, and I'm also named Tim!


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6867 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1175 times:

So you're saying departing aircraft are in position, on the runway, as aircraft approach the parallel; and they're cleared for takeoff immediately after the parallel aircraft touches down?

User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4507 posts, RR: 34
Reply 3, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1166 times:

Did y'all see the press release from Continental the other day saying that they're reducing CO Express flights at CLE due to "runway congestion?" They implied that construction on the new parallel runway (I didn't know it had started) was interfering with runway capacity. They're cutting Toledo, Lansing, and a third city I forget. They recently cut Scranton, Akron, and another city I also forget.

According to the diagram I've seen, the completed layout--preserving existing 5L-23R, and building an 11,500' new 5L-23R next to it (and presumably redesignating the existing strip 5R-23L) will have about 1000' space between the parallel strips. This is about the space between St. Louis-Lambert's parallel strips. That's enough for VFR simultaneous landings. I've watched simulataneous landings at STL--once a Shamu WN 737 wingtip-to-wingtip with another WN 737!

What's the latest on Hopkins expansion? I don't find the Plain-Dealer website helpful, is there another good source of info?

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineCle_tim From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1162 times:

5R and 23L will be made narrower and turned into a taxiway from what I have read. I know about Akron in the service cutback. The plain dealer had it in the paper as the fact that the flight was 10 minutes in length and that the taxi time was more then the flight made it a flop. That isn't true - I flew on those flights twice and it was full both times. However, people were abusing it - instead of paying $199 for CLE-MCO-CLE, because of AirTrans presence at CAK, you could have somebody drop you off at CAK, fly CAK-CLE-MCO-CLE, throw away the last segment and save $60+. Take a taxi home for $8 and save at least $150 on 4 people.

The Plain Dealer website is just awful, nothing useful. Try newsnet5.com, thats a local station, but most of their stories look like they were written by a 4th grader.

Example:

A United Airlines (no, it was Delta) enroute BOS-SLC this morning made a emergency landing in Cleveland after it lost a engine (you mean it physically fell off?).


User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 44
Reply 5, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1154 times:

I have seen near-simultaneous takeoffs and ditto for landings, usually with about 1/4 mile horizontal separation. It's usually two small planes (i.e. ATR, Beech 1900, sometimes an ERJ) or one small plane and one larger plane (the smaller goes first).

I spot once a week in the winter and five times a week in the summer, so I've had a lot of time to see this. It usually only occurs when clearing out after weather delay or during the highest congestion time, Thursday night.

redngold



Up, up and away!
User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 44
Reply 6, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1150 times:

Forgot to mention -- yes, there are departures simultaneous with short final, landing, and roll out; and vice versa. On the parallels, of course. This is actually quite common during rush hours (6-8 pm daily, all evening on Thursdays.)

I have also seen simultaneous ops on 5L/5R and 10; and 23L/23R and 28. Provided that traffic landing on 5R holds short; 5L doesn't depart while 10 is on short final or in use; and 28 isn't in use when landing on 23L/23R.

When traffic uses Rwy 28, it is almost always during severe lake effect weather which makes it dangerous to approach from the lakeshore. The departing traffic uses Rwy 23L at taxiway W(hiskey). Sometimes a brave soul will fly in on 23L when 28 is in use but I call that risky.

Rwy 10 is almost only used in the summer evenings when the runway is lit up by the setting sun. I've seen everything from a Beech 1900 to an Airbus 310 land that way, although the latter is rare. Rwy 10 doesn't have the ILS or lighting systems that are on the opposite heading.

redngold



Up, up and away!
User currently offlineCle_tim From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1145 times:

I've heard it when only Runway 28 was in use. I finally tweaked my scanner good enough for it to reach all the way to Rocky River! Saturday when we were getting the heavy snow, they were putting planes in a holding pattern who knows where and the planes were slowly making their way in. I was checking arrivals and some of the turboprop aircraft got sent to CMH and PIT. As the planes were given landing clearance, the controller would report the RVR. We had a RVR as low as 2000.

User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6867 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (13 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1149 times:

Thanks for the answers, guys. So is it agreed that aircraft (jet airliners?) commonly take off from one parallel while another aircraft (also a jet?) is short final or touching down on the other parallel? And (less commonly?) aircraft are cleared for takeoff on one parallel while a departing aircraft is rolling on the other parallel?

If so, I don't suppose anybody has any theories about how this can be legal?


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