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American Aims ORD-PEK In 2009  
User currently offlineJimyvr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4462 times:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070628/lath102.html?.v=73

American submitted an application for operating Chicago - Beijing nonstop from 2009.

Proposed flight schedule eff 25MAR09:
AA189 ORD1115 - 1350PEK
AA188 PEK1550 - 1545ORD

90 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaFFinDFW From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4414 times:

Ah! Yet another sign that DFW is nothing more than a mega-domestic connecting hub for AA.

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7562 posts, RR: 25
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4376 times:

Quoting DeltaFFinDFW (Reply 1):
Ah! Yet another sign that DFW is nothing more than a mega-domestic connecting hub for AA.

But we already knew that. Its a shame, I would like to see AA do more from DFW international.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4371 times:

Even with UA in the ORD-PEK market, the forecast numbers are so much stronger from ORD than DFW.

User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4360 times:

Quoting Jimyvr (Thread starter):
American submitted an application for operating Chicago - Beijing nonstop from 2009.

Proposed flight schedule eff 25MAR09:
AA189 ORD1115 - 1350PEK
AA188 PEK1550 - 1545ORD

I am sorry but I think that AA would have had a better chance if they would have submitted the route application as:

MIA-ORD-PEK

With ORD an existing gateway to China I dont see anything favorable out of the next round that AA is aiming for. I am however suprised that yet again Dallas got nothing out of the China bid, not even an originator to this flight. It is true, from appearances that AA has found DFW to be more important as a domestic hub than an international hub.

-JD


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11554 posts, RR: 61
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4324 times:

They might as well have not even wasted their time filing an application. They are going to get Chicago-Beijing right after Continental gets Cleveland-Xiamen. What a stupid move. They should have gone for Los Angeles-Beijing where they could have got many, though admittedly not as many as from O'Hare, connections, plus huge O&D. While I could be wrong, I think AA stands absolutely 0 chance of getting this route.

User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4896 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4269 times:
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Quoting Commavia (Reply 5):
They might as well have not even wasted their time filing an application. They are going to get Chicago-Beijing right after Continental gets Cleveland-Xiamen. What a stupid move. They should have gone for Los Angeles-Beijing where they could have got many, though admittedly not as many as from O'Hare, connections, plus huge O&D. While I could be wrong, I think AA stands absolutely 0 chance of getting this route.

They're hoping that the DOT will use the same rationale that awarded them ORD-PVG the last time round (i.e., to compete with the incumbent on that route) given that the ORD-China market is large. I agree that it's a waste and that something like LAX-PEK/PVG should have been taken priority but I think that AA may actually have decent chance of getting it just by default as there are 4 frequencies up for grabs in 2009:

One will go to US for PHL-PVG or PEK (also satisfying the 2009 new entrant criteria)

One will most likely go to CO for EWR-PVG

There will still be two frequencies left for the remaining incumbents - AA, UA, and NW. UA will probably get a SFO-CAN in 2008, and they may stand another chance again if they apply for say LAX-PVG/PEK...Another question is whether DL can and will apply for a second frequency in 2009 (assuming that it pretty much has the 2007 designation locked up). Even if DL joins the fray, there will be two frequencies to be fought for among four carriers so AA's chances are certainly better than 0.


User currently offlineGemini573 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4269 times:

Agree. LAX-BJS would of been much better. The flights that I've taken from LAX to Asia, had many passengers connecting from Latin America as well as other parts of the States. I have my doubts about AA being rewarded ORD-BJS.

User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4263 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 6):
One will go to US for PHL-PVG or PEK (also satisfying the 2009 new entrant criteria)

Do they even know what kind of equipment?

Quoting Panamair (Reply 6):
There will still be two frequencies left for the remaining incumbents - AA, UA, and NW.

I have a feeling those will be:

UA SFO-CAN
777-200

NW DTW-PEK
747-400

-JD


User currently offlineAdh214 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4259 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 2):
But we already knew that. Its a shame, I would like to see AA do more from DFW international.

Hmm... if they could just find pilots that would fly DFW-PEK non stop. My understanding is that AA had DFW-PEK in the bag last time around but it was scuttled when they amended their application because their pilots would not fly the route.

Andrew


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4896 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4236 times:
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Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 8):
Do they even know what kind of equipment?

No, but 2009 is far enough away that they will have enough time to get the right equipment, etc.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 8):
I have a feeling those will be:

UA SFO-CAN
777-200

Except SFO-CAN with UA will most probably be in 2008 since the 2008 designation is specifically for a flight to CAN. All the 2009 applications will most likely be for PEK and/or PVG again.


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4213 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 10):
Except SFO-CAN with UA will most probably be in 2008 since the 2008 designation is specifically for a flight to CAN. All the 2009 applications will most likely be for PEK and/or PVG again.

I was mistaken, you are correct..

Quoting Adh214 (Reply 9):
Hmm... if they could just find pilots that would fly DFW-PEK non stop. My understanding is that AA had DFW-PEK in the bag last time around but it was scuttled when they amended their application because their pilots would not fly the route.

I am worried that these labour issues, and labour contracts are going to ultimatley turn the fate of American Airlines in an opposite direction..

-JD


User currently offlineSeeTheWorld From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1325 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4212 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 4):
MIA-ORD-PEK

With ORD an existing gateway to China I dont see anything favorable out of the next round that AA is aiming for. I am however suprised that yet again Dallas got nothing out of the China bid, not even an originator to this flight. It is true, from appearances that AA has found DFW to be more important as a domestic hub than an international hub.

Tagging MIA on the backend is of very little consequence to the overall decision process.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 5):
They might as well have not even wasted their time filing an application. They are going to get Chicago-Beijing right after Continental gets Cleveland-Xiamen. What a stupid move. They should have gone for Los Angeles-Beijing where they could have got many, though admittedly not as many as from O'Hare, connections, plus huge O&D. While I could be wrong, I think AA stands absolutely 0 chance of getting this route.

With six awards being given out in out this summer and only six viable U.S. carriers, you really believe they have zero chance. I don't buy it. I also would say NW has more than a zero chance too.

Quoting Adh214 (Reply 9):
Hmm... if they could just find pilots that would fly DFW-PEK non stop. My understanding is that AA had DFW-PEK in the bag last time around but it was scuttled when they amended their application because their pilots would not fly the route.

I don't buy that one either. The DFW market is still too small and connections are limited and AA already is an incumbant China carrier. While ATL has some of the same issues as DFW, DL is not an incumbant so they have a huge edge, and DL doesn't have as good of an alternative that AA has, i.e. ORD for AA is much better than JFK for DL.


User currently offlineDelta4eva From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 344 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4197 times:

My guesses are DL applying for LAX-CAN for the 2009 frequencies.


FLY DELTA JETS
User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4180 times:

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 12):
Tagging MIA on the backend is of very little consequence to the overall decision process

Understandable.. But notice how US Airways tagged on Charlotte to its application..

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 13):
My guesses are DL applying for LAX-CAN for the 2009 frequencies.

Delta Air Lines partner China Southern flies the LAX-CAN route daily with a 777-200. Maybe Delta will get creative and go for JFK-CAN for the frequencies.

-JD


User currently offlineAkizidy214 From Jamaica, joined Sep 2006, 408 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4074 times:

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 12):
The DFW market is still too small and connections are limited
Are you serious? Is DFW not the 3rd busiest airport in the US?

[Edited 2007-06-29 00:35:38]


DCA
User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4067 times:

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 15):
Are you serious? Is DFW not the 3rd buisyest airport in the US?

That is from what source?

DFW is a strong domestic hub, mediocre international hub.. Compared to ATL, LAX, SFO, MIA, EWR their is not much of a long-haul World gateway at DFW.

-JD


User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7263 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4035 times:
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Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 13):
My guesses are DL applying for LAX-CAN for the 2009 frequencies.

I could see NW getting the CAN route and using their DTW, MSP, and MEM markets for feed. We are moving our Asia hub to CAN in 2008 and could use the NW flight to ferry employees back and forth from MEM. Have a close working relationship with NW.

When does NW get their first 787?


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4026 times:

Quoting FXramper (Reply 17):
I could see NW getting the CAN route and using their DTW, MSP, and MEM markets for feed.

CAN is served daily from NRT on an NWA 757

-JD


User currently offlineAkizidy214 From Jamaica, joined Sep 2006, 408 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4008 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 16):
That is from what source?

Here is a pretty good source........

http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/busi...ndex.cfm?airportType=All&year=2006



DCA
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3093 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4002 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 4):
MIA-ORD-PEK

With ORD an existing gateway to China I dont see anything favorable out of the next round that AA is aiming for. I am however suprised that yet again Dallas got nothing out of the China bid, not even an originator to this flight. It is true, from appearances that AA has found DFW to be more important as a domestic hub than an international hub.

What difference does a formal originator flight make? There's already flights from both DFW and MIA that would easily connect - what advantage does having the same flight number make?

Quoting Commavia (Reply 5):
They might as well have not even wasted their time filing an application. They are going to get Chicago-Beijing right after Continental gets Cleveland-Xiamen. What a stupid move. They should have gone for Los Angeles-Beijing where they could have got many, though admittedly not as many as from O'Hare, connections, plus huge O&D. While I could be wrong, I think AA stands absolutely 0 chance of getting this route.

Depends on the competition. I too agree that LAX makes a lot more sense. The west coast is crying out for more flights to China, as all the recent new flights have been from the midwest or east coast.

Quoting FXramper (Reply 17):
I could see NW getting the CAN route and using their DTW, MSP, and MEM markets for feed. We are moving our Asia hub to CAN in 2008 and could use the NW flight to ferry employees back and forth from MEM. Have a close working relationship with NW.

NW already flies to CAN from NRT. If NW were to go for a non-stop mainland flight, it would be to PEK/PVG.


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3993 times:

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 19):
Here is a pretty good source........

I thought you meant by O/D traffic

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 20):
What difference does a formal originator flight make? There's already flights from both DFW and MIA that would easily connect - what advantage does having the same flight number make?

AA would have a much better chance on a non-existing originating point such as MIA

-JD


User currently offlineAkizidy214 From Jamaica, joined Sep 2006, 408 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3956 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 21):
I thought you meant by O/D traffic

I believe DFW also has the 3rd largest o/d traffic in the US as well.

The problem with these china routes from DFW is that the pilots union is not willing to fly these routes. This in my opinion is only going to hurt them in the long haul when it comes time to renegotiate. AMR's senior management is not going to give them a 30% pay increase and the union is going to have no ground to stand on.



DCA
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3947 times:

Quoting Panamair (Reply 6):
(i.e., to compete with the incumbent on that route) given that the ORD-China market is large.

...only problem is, the LAX-China market is larger, and with no USA incumbent.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 6):
There will still be two frequencies left for the remaining incumbents - AA, UA, and NW.

...at this point, DL is more than likely to be an incumbent as well.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 14):
Maybe Delta will get creative and go for JFK-CAN for the frequencies.

Couldn't see it happening-- as CAN has yet to even support daily LAX service with feed at both ends. That, and CO/CX's NYC-HKGs would eat it alive.


User currently offlineHPAEAA From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1024 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3892 times:

Quoting DeltaFFinDFW (Reply 1):
Ah! Yet another sign that DFW is nothing more than a mega-domestic connecting hub for AA.

I would bet it's because they won't have to get permission from the Pilots union to fly it.... somthing tells me with new leadership coming to the APA it's not going to be easy for AA Mgt to get any extras from the unions.



Why do I fly???
25 LAXdude1023 : You can take ATL out of that list. If you are talking about O&D traffic, ATL doesnt belong on that list.
26 BigGSFO : The only benefit would be to rally the politicians and businesses of South Florida to support the route.
27 BayAreaPilot : NW shouldn't get any additional routes until they move their NRT-China flights to the US. It's ridiculous that precious US-China slots are allowed to
28 Tpac : I find it interesting if not odd that this announcement was made today. Maybe AA is a little ticked off at the DFW airport folks for this whole BA DFW
29 Flighty : Yeah really. Selling a 1-stop from MIA would be cynical and meaningless (and, tie up a 777 for no good reason). A connection via 737 is just as good,
30 Incitatus : My thought is American does not want a second flight to China.
31 RwSEA : Not a waste at all. In SEA (a city with much more O&D to China than ATL, MIA, DFW, IAH, or many other hubs in the East), it's the fastest connection
32 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...nah, AA knew this was going to happen once "Open Skies" happened and AA will be adding its own DFW-LHR flight..just a matter of time...now will it
33 FLYGUY767 : ATL was not on the list because of O/D.. It was on the list because of International Flights Nothing to do with that.. DFW has the connections for DF
34 Jacobin777 : ....could be from a multitude of route optimisations......for example, LAX-LHR goes double daily only during the summer..where does the slot go durin
35 UnitedFirst : It's as simple as shifting just one flight from elsewhere within AA's US-LHR network for a DFW flight...JFK comes to mind. And besides, if it comes d
36 Jacobin777 : I would like to see AA start ORD-HKG...UA has 1x-2x/daily B744 flights (depending on day of the week)...I wouldn't be surprised to see either CX or O
37 Akizidy214 : The Dallas area has plenty o/d traffic for China service. Its no NYC but it has plenty to keep the flights profitable.
38 UnitedNRT : Los Angeles to Beijing/Shanghai and return on United is more of a possibility now than it was several years ago as the Chicago and San Francisco hubs
39 RwSEA : Care to share the numbers then? The truth is that DFW isn't in the top 5, maybe not even the top 10 cities in terms of O&D to China. Same for ATL. Th
40 UnitedFirst : ORD-HKG is one of those monopoly routes that seems to be BEGGING for competition. I've read that CX will evaluate ORD again upon delivery of the 777-
41 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..but if O8 has openly stated they are looking into ORD, then there is the possibility of AA commencing HKG..and though they run with different set o
42 SESGDL : Who said anything about O&D? This year ATL stands to have over 9 million international passengers, which is incredible considering it's ATL. BOS has
43 LAXdude1023 : Outside LAX, NYC, SFO, and ORD (maybe IAD and SEA), the rest of the markets are in the US are not going to fill a plane based on O&D. The only reason
44 ConcordeBoy : They're both 656K.lbs 772ERs. CO has the advantage of utilizing GE90s, whereas AA hauls significantly fewer seats on a shorter route. Regardless, AA'
45 SeeTheWorld : While the LAX-China market is larger than the ORD-China market, the connections AA can offer through ORD (as well as the less circuitous routings thr
46 Post contains images FLYGUY767 : That I question.. I have a very hard time believing that DFW has larger O/D marketshare than LAX, ORD, JFK, EWR, LGA, SFO, and LAS. If their is proof
47 LAXdude1023 : Actually im not sure. I think AA could stand to lose a LHR slot from JFK to give to DFW. The reason being is that they are going to want to compete w
48 ConcordeBoy : who was speaking of AA? ....careful with JFK. Also, you seem to be forgetting ATL, which has routinely been in the top 5 O&D airports in the USA sinc
49 FLYGUY767 : My question is that would AA forego a proven high-yielding Heathrow-JFK frequency for DFW? It was and has been my underrstanding that the reason AA i
50 ConcordeBoy : Perhaps. Something else to consider are economic Opportunity Costs... i.e, the value of service to their prime int'l destination may outweigh the liq
51 FLYGUY767 : If that is true I am very, very shocked as many of the JFK routes are O/D reliant. Is there anywhere to view O/D stats? -JD
52 UnitedFirst : As it stands now, I'd be more inclined to watch China Southern and Continental's relationship. CO already has a foothold in the PRC market, not to me
53 LAXdude1023 : Indeed, Im not so sure about ATL being all the way up there, I would also be shocked. Are there any stats on hand?
54 Post contains images 747fan : This is surely AA's most profitable route (their most profitable individual flight is MIA-LHR). JFK-NRT could also possibly be considered as their fl
55 ConcordeBoy : Because you're thinking only along the likes of the DLs, AAs, and BAs. Take half the Air Kookamongas of the world into account, and you'll see how it
56 FLYGUY767 : What I was implying was that JFK is a hands down international O/D hub more than a connecting hub. Aerolineas Argentinas Aeroflot Aero Svit Air India
57 ConcordeBoy : ...if you'll notice, I never specified international O&D. In both total O&D and percentage O&D, however; the NYC markets rank LGA, EWR, then JFK.
58 UnitedFirst : Source? Frankly, if it's anything other than the Revenue Managment Department, take it with a grain of salt. And if you're working for AA...I wouldn'
59 ConcordeBoy : ...since when?
60 Chrisk : Actually, according to DOT data (and the MIDT data I've seen), BOS is the 5th largest US market for China O&D.
61 AA787823 : Well if AA wants the slightest shot in the dark of getting this route, they better give the pilots EXACTLY what they want in negotiations, otherwise t
62 Jacobin777 : ...if AA wants the go straight into bankruptcy, they should give the pilots EXACTLY what they want in negotiations...otherwise they might not have to
63 AA787823 : Well if they dont get what they want it...."Where would you like us to park these airplanes Gerard?"
64 JustPlaneNutz : They don't need to. They can fly ORD-PEK today--it's under 16 hours.
65 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ....ORD-PEK is actually an hour shorter than ORD-PVG..so it shouldn't be a problem one bit...in fact, ORD-HKG should work within the time schedule al
66 UAL777UK : Giving the Pilots "exactly" what they want would be a disaster for AA and could potentially see them take a massive step backwards, not least I am su
67 Cjpark : Are you serious? Wonder how much of an issue for AA it would be to get Eagle Pilots up to speed on the big birds?
68 Bobnwa : What do you think the AA pilots would want? I have my ideas but I would like to hear yours.
69 Jacobin777 : I'm going by what's been stated in the media in terms of pay raise, compensation, etc......just the pay raise alone would be bad enough.....
70 BoeingFever777 : Why is that? Both CO and AA do this with IAH and DFW... Then fly a majority of their Intl. routes out of ORD and EWR.
71 LAXdude1023 : I think it has more to do with local market than anything else. Both airports are underserved to Europe, but ORD and EWR respectively have more to of
72 Bobnwa : I believe the AA pilots will be after the following items which I don't think any carrier today can afford to give. 1. 30% raise 2. Positive space wh
73 ConcordeBoy : ...though their markets served differ (and compliment each other) vastly, MIA is AA's primary international gateway, not ORD.
74 Jacobin777 : ..not even one of those are possible...if the union thinks they can even one passed they are smoking crack....
75 AA787823 : you are forgetting 1. Free laptop computers, with free internet. 2. 15% sign bonus on contract 3. access to flight attendant jumpseats while non rev/
76 Reins485 : BA and AA are pretty close and now that open skies are coming to Great Britain wouldn't AA find a way to get extra slots for DFW-LHR from BA, esp now
77 ConcordeBoy : ...what makes you think that? They both know they're going to be required to cede dozens upon dozens of slots if they want it, which they have no int
78 HPAEAA : Other carriers are finding slots to begin service... I bet they'd have a decent shot at the immunity...
79 ConcordeBoy : That argument won't hold any more water than it did the last two times it was used....
80 Reins485 : There were two reasons why they were basically denied anti trust immunity. The first one was the lack of open skies and the 4 carrier rule for US-LHR
81 WorldTraveler : DL will not be using its 757s to fly the same markets CO has done. While there will be some markets that will be right-sized, there will be other mar
82 Anetter123 : I agree but highly doubt it as MIA's route is not even attached to any of AA's 4 daily NRT flights (still have a hard time understanding why, but hey
83 Anetter123 : Correction 5, forgot about their LAX-NRT flight.
84 MAH4546 : Tying up what 777? The 777 that currently flies between Miami and O'Hare daily? Tagging on MIA (or DFW) with same plane service will help the applica
85 Post contains images Jacobin777 : AA is too big to be bought out....a "merger" between AA/BA won't happen...if anything, in the next industrial downturn, being the only legacy not to
86 Reins485 : BA has publicly said they would like to merge AA, however, due to foreign ownership rules in place now they have said they are can not merge, however
87 Reins485 : BA has publicly said they would like to merge AA, however, due to foreign ownership rules in place now they have said they are can not merge, however
88 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..that's a bit of a different situation...even if the foreign ownership laws are relaxed, anti-trust laws will not allow AA and BA to merge unless th
89 WorldTraveler : uh, you do realize that companies much larger than AA have been bought by foreign companies, don't you? there is nothing sacrosanct about AA that wou
90 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...I've never stated its a "good" process (or an "easy process") and I'm against it for ethical reasons...but as I've always stated.."hey, if its leg
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