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Confirmed: LH Announces FRA-MCO  
User currently offlineLHUSA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 563 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8436 times:

It was strongly rumored in this post, but now that it's official I think it deserves it own thread.

LH New North Atlantic Destinations (by LHBSL Jun 23 2007 in Civil Aviation)

Flights begin Oct 30th
5 Weekly
A333 8F 48C 165M

http://www.orlandoairports.net/main.htm

[Edited 2007-06-28 21:24:08]

76 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFXMD11 From Thailand, joined Aug 2004, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8345 times:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070628/20070628006042.html?.v=1

User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8319 times:

Now that's a route I wouldn't have expected. Why is LH starting FRA-MCO all of a sudden? MCO seems like a route more suited for DE, unless DE has pulled out of FRA-MCO.

User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11419 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8180 times:

I'm surprised they're flying a 3-class aircraft to such a leisure-oriented market. I would think a higher-density, 2-class (do they have any?) would make more sense.

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8107 times:

Very surprising move, I really do not understand why LH is interested in Orlando? It was predicted on the other thread, my congradutions to those who suggested that LH would fly this route, as stated, I did NOT see this coming. Is LH making a pre-emptive strike against other expanding German airlines (read Air Berlin/LTU) by entering the Orlando market.....sending them some kind of warning....I am not sure, but something is going on here that atleast I dont understand.

LH pulled FRA-PHX because of lower than expected yeilds, but is now adding a flight to Orlando that will directly and indirectly compete with holiday flights and vacation packages? The yeilds into MCO cannot be anything more than marginal due to the competiton.

And, LH will use an airplane with F seats into MCO? The A333 is configured in a rather premium layout, its much more suited for flights from FRA to JFK or ORD, not for flights to a holiday destination. Has LH discovered a niche high-yeild market to Central Florida and the theme parks? I know that there is a rather large (and wealthy) community of Germans that maintain second homes on the Gulf Coast who fly back and forth frequently and can afford to sit upfront, but then why MCO and RSW?

I am looking forward to hearing more about this route, there is more to this story in my opinion.


User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8107 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
unless DE has pulled out of FRA-MCO.

DE's website still has 2 flights per week FRA-MCO on Mondays and Fridays (random dates in November / December).
Apparently LH saw a need to offer a better premium product to MCO than DE's Comfort Class is.

LH's nonstop flights are not available on their website yet, so there is no indication if they discount Business Class on that route, too. MIA is around 2050 € in Business Class when booking 6 or 8 weeks in advance.
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineLXA340 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 2122 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8092 times:

Some A340-300's are in a 2 Class configuration and also part of the A340-600 fleet. But then again it might be easier to start to use an aircraft with less seats however offering all classes and see how loads develop. Hence adjustments can be made accodring to the statisistics if at all any need to be made.

User currently offlineRookinla From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 307 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8056 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 2):
Now that's a route I wouldn't have expected. Why is LH starting FRA-MCO all of a sudden? MCO seems like a route more suited for DE, unless DE has pulled out of FRA-MCO.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
I'm surprised they're flying a 3-class aircraft to such a leisure-oriented market.

In the other thread the same concerns were brought up. The response from somebody that I believe is "in the know" states that the issue of yield concerns "Has already been taken care of but I can not elaborate." LH may be getting reduced or waived landing fees, etc. I know that MCO and local business leaders have been courting LH for some time now. LH will replace DE on the route with even higher frequency than DE was running. Remember also that LT pulled out of MCO a while back leaving DE with the only MCO-Germany service. With DE terminating service, all that LH has to really be conerned about is the arrival of EI. LH will not only be going for O&D on this one, but also onward connections to other parts of Europe, Middle East, Africa, etc. I think that they will do just fine...


User currently offlineCitrusCritter From Pitcairn Islands, joined May 2007, 1093 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7997 times:

As an MCO resident, I really don't want LH. I much prefer DE on this route. There went our relatively inexpensive J-classish product to Germany.

[Edited 2007-06-28 22:57:15]


TLH
User currently offlineRookinla From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 307 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7977 times:

Just read the press release and found a few things of interest...

1. The two days without service are Monday and Saturday...similar to the Monday and Friday found by HT. I would think that the new LH service would replace the DE service...That's what I had understood...I guess we'll see.
2. LH will have the only First Class Cabin from MCO to Europe. If they market this flight regionally throughout Central and North Florida, it just may work. I suspect that many TPA, JAX and RSW travelers will also use this flight.
3. The press release states that it is a nice complement to the afternoon MIA-FRA flight. The flight seems to be timed to offer an alternative for South Florida travelers. This new flight may very well keep LH from expanding further at MIA. Possibly US or UA might feed the evening MCO LH flight with a daily round-trip timed for connections from MIA/FLL. I wish LH the best of luck...I think they will do well at MCO.


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4085 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7977 times:

I like this passage: "...and will offer travelers the flexibility of either an early afternoon departure from Miami or an evening departure from Orlando."

Yeah, that's like saying travelers have the flexibility of either an early evening departure from Boston or a later departure out of MONTREAL. Miami and Orlando aren't really 'flip-of-the-coin' alternates as far as geography goes.

Chris


User currently offlineClipper136 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 316 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7918 times:

Orlando is more than the "House of Mouse".

Although that is what it is best known for. Orlando has an emerging High Tech sector, and has embarked on creating a "Medical Village" and Bio-tech Center.

Tourism has always played a big part in Orlando's economy, but Business, outside of the tourism sector has been fast growing for some time. Orlando also has been growing its portfolio of "Luxury Accommodations"

Not that many visitors who come to Disney ever visit Metro Orlando. All they know is Disney, International Dr, Universal Studios, and 192 in Kissimmee. Orlando's housing and retail sectors are booming with large increases in high end retail and housing, and its not the tourists who are buying.

I always hear people complain about Orlando's legendary low yields. I agree that yields in Orlando are not as high as Miami, New York or Boston, but Orlando has the passenger numbers and lower costs to make lower yields profitable.

I saw a few charts here some time ago (did a search but could not find them) That showed MCO consistently in the top 10 profitable routes of the US Major Airlines.

Glad to have you LH.


User currently offlineLHUSA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 563 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7894 times:

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing Clipper136.

User currently offlineBoeing743 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 406 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7882 times:

I am sure they would choose MCO because it is wide vacation destination for many people. I am sure that LH would make profit out of this on that route. FRA is major center for LH connection.

User currently offlineRookinla From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 307 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7838 times:

Many people are guilty of seeing Orlando as Disney and nothing else. This flight will work and as a matter of fact I would be willing to bet that by the Spring timetable, the frequency will be daily and could also see an upgrade in aircraft. Clipper, you and I both know that MCO has a VERY large cachement area for this flight to draw from. Here are examples of where this flight will draw from and approximate MSA Pops(+/- a small amount)...

Orlando...1.7 Million
Daytona Beach...almost 500,000
Tampa/St Pete/Clearwater...over 2 Million
Jacksonville...over 1 Million
Ocala...325,000
Gainesville...200,000
Melbourne/Brevard...300 to 400,000
Lakeland/Winter Haven...Over 400,000

Factor in feeds from Sarasota, Florida Panhandle, Ft. Myers, Vero Beach/Ft. Pierce, possibly even South Florida via Express flights and the Bahamas.....There is MORE than enough demand for this to work and it will. Also remember that LH will use this flight to feed their FRA long and short haul network. This should also effectively put the skids to talk of AF coming to MCO in the forseeable future.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16819 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7798 times:

Great news for Orlando, it's a great airport!


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6483 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7776 times:

Quoting Clipper136 (Reply 11):
Although that is what it is best known for. Orlando has an emerging High Tech sector, and has embarked on creating a "Medical Village" and Bio-tech Center.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
I'm surprised they're flying a 3-class aircraft to such a leisure-oriented market. I would think a higher-density, 2-class (do they have any?) would make more sense.

Clipper136 covered part of it. Because of what he was referring to, there is an increasingly large convention market in Orlando. It's warm year-round, and Vati (or Mutti, in these times) can go to the convention while the spouse goes with the kids to Disney World/Sea World or to Cape Canaveral, etc. It's not as oppressively hot as Vegas, either.

Also, MCO is the best airport to go to if you want to hit the Space Coast (for aerospace personnel.)

[Edited 2007-06-28 23:38:37]


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineRookinla From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 307 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7770 times:

I just checked the New Service page for MCO. This morning when I looked, DE's seasonal service changes were listed...now they're gone. Looks like it is in fact a total transfer of service from DE to LH.

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7758 times:

Quoting Rookinla (Reply 14):
Many people are guilty of seeing Orlando as Disney and nothing else.

And while Orlando is more than Theme Parks and Hotels, leisure traffic does dominate travel to Orlando and most of Florida (MIA does have a better mix of business and higher yeilding traffic). And, most Europeans travelling to Orlando buy packages including flight (on a charter carrier) and hotel and other features, not a market LH participates in.

As I said above, LH flying to MCO is an interesting and (in my opinion) an unexpected move. I think that there is more to this story......LH is sending a message to AirBerlin/LTU which has big expansion plans in mind. Air Berlin is rumored to be looking at 50 widebody aircraft (A330s/A350s or 787s, depending upon which day you hear the story) and may have plans to open up scheduled ""lower cost"" services from Germany to cities worldwide.....a key market would be MCO. Is LH opening a MCO route as a warning to AirBerlin saying ""we will compete with you on any route that you even think about flying""? I dont know for sure.....but LH is not entering the MCO market because there is lots of money to be made because its simply not the case. There are other reasons supporting LH's entry into the MCO market which will probably become more appearant over time.


User currently offlineHT From Germany, joined May 2005, 6525 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7728 times:

Quoting N328KF (Reply 16):
It's not as oppressively hot as Vegas, either.

Confirmed. During my only vacation around Orlando it was freezing. This was the time when the Tampa Bay Buccaneers won Superbowl XXXVII and Space Shuttle Discovery disintegrated a few days later. Quite some mixed feelings in the single week ...
-HT



Carpe diem ! Life is too short to waste your time ! Keep in mind, that today is the first day of the rest of your life !
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7660 times:

What airside with LH use? I'm moving back to MCO in August - my birthday is in late August also. I can't wait for the chance to take some shots of LH there!

User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3128 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7626 times:

Not a surprising addition. In the linked article, LH had been considering MCO for a few years (also mentioned are CLT and PIT being considered at the time).

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-106493239.html

CLT has been taken care of. PIT....well it's still PIT (LH is a pipe dream without the US hub). So MCO is a logical addition.

[Edited 2007-06-29 00:37:29]


FLYi
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7539 times:

Quoting HT (Reply 19):
and Space Shuttle Discovery disintegrated a few days later.

...apparently, no one told Discovery

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jean - AirTeamImages



(you mean "Columbia" cher)


User currently offlineDALelite From Switzerland, joined Jun 2000, 1770 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7487 times:

Hope the wont sucsed!!!!

cheers: DALelite



They loved to fly and it showed..
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7397 times:

Quoting Clipper136 (Reply 11):
Orlando is more than the "House of Mouse".

Although that is what it is best known for. Orlando has an emerging High Tech sector, and has embarked on creating a "Medical Village" and Bio-tech Center.

Tourism has always played a big part in Orlando's economy, but Business, outside of the tourism sector has been fast growing for some time. Orlando also has been growing its portfolio of "Luxury Accommodations"

Not that many visitors who come to Disney ever visit Metro Orlando. All they know is Disney, International Dr, Universal Studios, and 192 in Kissimmee. Orlando's housing and retail sectors are booming with large increases in high end retail and housing, and its not the tourists who are buying.

I always hear people complain about Orlando's legendary low yields. I agree that yields in Orlando are not as high as Miami, New York or Boston, but Orlando has the passenger numbers and lower costs to make lower yields profitable.

I couldn't agree more. That was what I said recently. Since the rumours about a GRU-MCO service with RG next year, I've been defending Orlando and how there shold be a GRU-MCO flight. LH starting FRA-MCO only shows that it is feasable.


25 MCOflyer : Agreed. They will more than likely use Terminal B where US, UA, and AC are as they are Star alliance. I'm guessing gate 58 or 59 is our best bet. Hun
26 CitrusCritter : I have little doubt that GRU-MCO would do well.
27 SkyyMaster : I agree. But it is a b*tch to fly there if you aren't in the front cabin. Business travellers in the back and families with little kids aren't always
28 LHboyatDTW : very true, but at least LH is starting to put PTVs in their A333s and A346s so hopefully that will keep noise levels down from the families. I heard
29 RSWA330 : I don't know about drawing all those passengers. RSW and MIA also have direct German service too. I would say people on the west coast from Bradenton
30 Phatfarmlines : I don't think Airside 3 has FIS gates. Likewise, there is little incentive for LH to arrive at Airsides 1 & 4 where FIS gates exists for arrival and
31 Rookinla : I don't think that MCO will draw all(or even most) of potential passengers from some of the areas...but they will get some. RSW has 3X weekly service
32 NASCARAirforce : What's the chance that LH will bring in other aircraft types besides the A333? do you see them subbing in A340s, 747s etc?
33 SailorOrion : An A343 is rather likely, since many of the A343 have exactly the same cabin layout as this A333. 747? Maybe for days of absolute peak demand... Sail
34 FraT : LH might not have an inhouse tour operator, but there are tons of German tour operators who include LH and other scheduled carriers in their packages
35 Post contains images HT : Sorry for this tremendous faux pax ! -HT
36 LH498 : In the other thread quoted, someone mentioned that Siemens could have played a role in LH's decision. Siemens has apparently some growing business in
37 MIASkies : Wow what a shock, I say bad move by LH to MCO. Compliment to MIA market? MCO/MIA are two totally different markets. Let's see how long it lasts, this
38 747LUVR : I am glad LH is coming here...I hope to book the first flight out on 10/30....we'll see. Joe
39 Logos : Siemens has a sizable operation here in Orlando, though not as big as it once was (they closed down a rather large plant up in Sanford/Lake Mary). He
40 Boeing74741R : Interesting development by LH. Hope the route does well for them considering it will be MCO's only link to FRA. Regarding earlier comments, there are
41 LHPDX : Good job for MCO for landing this new service with Lufthansa...
42 Post contains links CitrusCritter : Orlando Sentinel: Lufthansa is cleared to land at OIA in fall Siemens has apparently guaranteed a number of C-class tickets. The Orlando business comm
43 747LUVR : I believe Condor still flies the FRA-MCO-FRA route...
44 CitrusCritter : I read one of the earlier posts in this thread to mean that DE would end service. Is that not the case? I am thinking about flying their Comfort Class
45 Post contains images DiscoverCSG : Orlando is more than just Disney World. It also has Universal and Sea World.
46 LTU932 : So this would mean that LH will turn a decent profit on FRA-MCO, even if the load in C is very low? If that's true, then this must be a killer deal f
47 Dutchjet : Contracts such as this do take a lot of risk out of operating the service....LH simply knows that on any given day, it has pre-sold much of the J cla
48 COEI2007 : I'm surprised at LH's entry to MCO! I'm even more surprised at the configuration of the a/c they will use. BA doesnt offer First, and they have a very
49 Floridaflyboy : Yeah, I hope they don't take DE off the route. Yeah, I'm with you on that one. I was planning on taking DE to germany for spring break. There goes th
50 Rookinla : LH is also getting a bit of a break on its MCO lease because it is using the airport "off peak"...just another cost savings. I believe I also heard t
51 MCOflyer : Anyone going to spot its first flight? I hope the first flight is full. We'll see how the loads do. I'm curious what kind of cargo LH will carry and w
52 DLX737200 : FIGURES! I move out of Orlando and transfer out of MCO, turning in my MCO badge, and now LH starts service to MCO. Dang it! I would've loved to taken
53 SailorOrion : LH no longer has A333s in this configuration. LH has two "low-yielders", i.e. two class, configurations based in FRA. The 346, with 66/279, and the 3
54 MEACEDAR : Just booked my flight MCO-FRA-BEY-FRA-MCO Orlando (ORL) to Beirut (BEY): Departing: Tue 11 Dec - Returning: Tue 1 Jan Date Departure Arrival Flight Du
55 MEACEDAR : All we need know is AF for a CDG-MCO and AZ for MXP-MCO
56 LXA340 : Those were actually A332's which were ex SN and SR aircraft and were leased it for capacity increase as an interim solution until the A333's arrived.
57 MIAMIx707 : Years ago I saw LH 747s on finals for MCO in at least 2 locations, diversions I guess. Surprising to most people but in the winter in most years the t
58 Flynavy : As for Russian companies, I think we'd see Transaero or S7 before Aeroflot again.
59 Steeler83 : And, I am afraid that this is all that LH will ever be to PIT my friend, regarding the US hub, or lack thereof... Unless demand for Europe increases
60 Clipper136 : Just may happen. The airport has approached AF with an economic case for the route. I do think it is about time for MCO begin the International Termi
61 LXA340 : Isn't BA flying from LGA or even LHR to Orlando, does anybody know how the premium traffic is on that route?
62 Rookinla : BA flies MCO-LGW daily. The flight is not configured with a First Class Cabin. The flights are full because of the high number of Brits coming to Orl
63 MIAMIx707 : All that land that was cleared south of the UA/NW terminal, is that where the new intl. terminal will be? It's been a while and nothing has been buil
64 Clipper136 : Yes. That is where the South Terminal Complex will eventually be built. At final build out it will contain 2 international terminals and 4 more airsi
65 Post contains images Anetter123 : Those fares loaded in the GDS's are super cheap too! I just did a fare shop for travel MCO-FRA in December leaving early Dec. arriving back to MCO aro
66 B777ER : Data proving your point or are you talking out of your ass? I still remember when LTU served DAB in the 90's.
67 Burkhard : MIA has got a nightmare for passengers - I think many passengers who had to use it during the last years will be happy to get an alternative.
68 MAH4546 : I truly doubt that anybody that wants to go to Miami will add two hours travel and fly into Orlando because MIA is a "nightmare" (which it isn't). Be
69 Anetter123 : Its funny how LH mentioned MCO as an alternative to MIA to fly to FRA. I think this is quite bizzare and I'll explain why. The nonstop MIA-FRA leaves
70 FraT : I think the new flight is only an alternative for people living/staying on the Orlando area, the Gulf Coast or the Florida East Coast north of PBI. Re
71 Post contains links Aarbee : http://www.orlandosentinel.com/busin...lufthansa2907jun29,0,5551386.story (Search for Siemens) So true. I was thinking, who the heck are they kidding
72 Aarbee : Drop me a PM, If there is a plan to spot. Cheers, R
73 Post contains images LH498 : Thank you for the link Let's see how it develops, personally and after reading this thread I would not doubt LH can make this route a success.
74 MAH4546 : It is simply going to come down fto one question: Can the Siemmens contract make-up for what will otherwise be low-yielding traffic? I think they'll
75 A342 : There's also the question of cargo revenue. Does anybody know what LH can expect in this field? If cargo and Y class revenue leave something to be de
76 LHUSA : I don't think that Y should be a problem at all. The big unknown will be LH's ability to fill up C and F, but with the Siemens deal it shouldn't be t
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