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SAir Out Of Money Next Year  
User currently offlineSndp From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 553 posts, RR: 2
Posted (14 years 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2061 times:

According to an article in the Belgian newspaper De Morgen this morning, the SAir group will run out of money next year due to the high losses in the airlines it owns (Swissair, Sabena, Crossair, Air Litoral, AOM, ...). Swissair plans to sell real estate and rent it back in order to generate cash. In an article in the Belgian newspaper De Standaard Eric Honegger of Swissair confirmed that not one part of SAir, either an airline or related business, will be sold in the near future.
sndp

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (14 years 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1923 times:

"Running out of money" is a bit exagerated. The predicted losses are said to be CHF 300mio in 2001. The sell of real estate will generate cash of about CHF 400mio (at least they hope so).

The capital base of SAirGroup however is lots more than CHF 300mio.

Regards
Gerardo



dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (14 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1897 times:

As Gerardo said, the capital base is quite healthy. They want to generate cash because of the expected losses of the (three) french airlines (AOM, Air Liberté and Littoral; to be merged) and Sabena and to be able to invest (perhaps) into MAS and Turkish.

User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (14 years 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1885 times:

Well my advice for them is that they should sell of Air Liberte quickly before it pulls them into the drain. Also the Sabena takeover was a complete failure.

Avion


User currently offlineFirst Class From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (14 years 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1868 times:

The SN takeover wasn't at all a failure. The strategy is interesting and promising.
SR and SN have virtually merged and the Frech and Italian carriers are also on the way to merge.
You can't expect brilliant results during such mergers.

Cheers, Hp


User currently offlineSndp From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 553 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (14 years 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1853 times:

I agree with First Class, the SN take over is not at all a faillure. It is sad to see the losses SN is making at the moment, but the external audit now should bring some clarification in the mùoney flows from SR to SN. SR benefits from SN and all the other mergers. You will see the French airlines taking over Airbusses instead of Boeings so SR Technics can maintaine these aircraft which means more money for SR. Hopefully, SR is as smart for the Fench airlines and SN to make them also profitable. The SAir Group is establishing a good basis for excellent results once all the cooperations are fully established. They are doing a good job, believe me.
sndp


User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (14 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1848 times:

Actually, Sabena's losses have intensivised substantially over the last three years - especially when you take aircraft sales (listed as 'extraordinary items') out of the accounts.

SAir has, apparently, been trying to create its own critical mass 'in house' rather than simply through alliances (even Qualiflyer). Their acquisition of Air Liberte and AOM raised a lot of eyebrows as BA was badly burnt by the former. Regrettably, the French and Belgian carriers are just too entrenched in 'their' way of doing things to allow SAir do do all that it needs to do to cut costs and make the group successful.

I see everyone forgot their interest in South African Airways as well - another carrier with more than its share of financial woes!

If the group tries to buy itself out of trouble by acquiring investments in more troubled carriers (Turkish and MAS) then I really don't see them making it to 2003, let alone the end of the decade.

A great pity, because Swissair is a nice little airline.


User currently offlineSR3496 From Switzerland, joined May 2000, 792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (14 years 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Well, I've heard that they'll sell some % of GateGourmet. But I really don't know if this is true.

User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (14 years 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1819 times:

I can only hope they pull the emergency brake and immediately sell of Air Liberte.

Avion


User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (14 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1807 times:

Well i hope they realise what huge mistakes they are making.

Also not that Swissair and Crossair always brake about even. The airlines that make the big losses are Sabena and Air Liberte.

Avion


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2728 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (14 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1802 times:

May I point to the fact that the losses at SN are almost fully to be blaimed on SR!

Why?
SR wants to buy the remaining 50.1% of SN shares as cheep as possible, so SR is trying to give the impression to the Belgian government that SN is virtually bankrupt.
In order to do that they are draining all interesting passengers away into their network asap.

Some SR tricks to push SN into the red:
Sabena in feeding thousands of pax in the SR network every day. All flights to Asia for instance are flown by Swissair (except Tokyo), but carry a hole bunch of SN-pax.
No surprise that the SR netwok is doing pritty good...
SR says this is a normal thing to do in an alliance, since only a shared flight is lucrative and a transfer to Asia via Zurich is geografically more logical.
I can agree with this, but then why are there no Swiss travelling to North America via Brussels?
For instance, LAX (and many others) are all via Zurich i.s.o. Brussels; where's the geografical logic?
There isn't any!
The only logical thing in all this is the constant drain from SN to SR.

I can say this not only on behalf of myself:
We at Sabena have had about enough from those Swiss with their annual refom plans and their nice words on our alliance. They don't see it as an alliance at all, they see us as a simple feeder airline for their intercontinental network. Only Africa hasn't been taken away yet, probably because they fear they would get lost out there in the jungle  
I don't know if Zurich still knows this, but the reality on the SN-SR alliance however is that SR is fully dependent on SN since Switserland is not part of the EU. They stepped into SN exactly to avoid being completely marginalised in their Swiss enclave, fully encircled by the EU. It is time they treat us and SN with the respect we deserve...
We are not the unprofitable part of the alliance, we are the legal core of that alliance! I thank you.


User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (14 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1789 times:

I must say that 4 A321s ZRH-BRU is not alot. That is all that SR gets from SN.

Avion


User currently offlineSR3496 From Switzerland, joined May 2000, 792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (14 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1789 times:

Hey Avion, aren't there 7 flights between ZRH and BRU at the moment? (6 with A32S and 1 with ARJ). Correct me if I'm wrong.

User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (14 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1779 times:

Yes i think SR could alone justify two A320s and one ARJ on its own without SN. So i only count 4.

Avion


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2728 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (14 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1774 times:

I must also say that often the morning and evening flight is not a A321, but actually a A330.
I didn't know so many people had to be in Zurich during the day....


User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 30
Reply 15, posted (14 years 2 days ago) and read 1759 times:

If I would work for Sabena, I would probably say the same as Sabenapilot. But then again, I live nearby ZRH and so I get only the "Swiss" news, Belgians perhaps only get to see the "Belgian" news.

In my opinion, Swissair and Sabena really are the core of this alliance, no doubt at all. Sabena was not doing very well a few years ago, and what I read in many discussion forums is, that Sabena has improved a lot in the last few years. Would this have been possible without SR? I don't know.

I still hope to see a strong SN/SR airline in the near future, perhaps with some strong feeders in France and Italy.

Regards - Gerardo

Webmaster/Moderator of:
Impressions at ZRH
Airbus Forum
The AirlineAlliance Website



dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineFirst Class From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (14 years 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1727 times:

Some clarifications to Sabenapilot:

1. SN never had a strong Asia presence. NRT was their only destination. There is absolutely no pax drain to ZRH from SN in this respect

2. SN always used to be a strong African and European carrier. These positions were strengthened after the arrival of SR.

3. It is of no use to build up new markets (i.e. LAX, Asia, South Atlantic) where one of the partners is strong and has a good reputation and there is a lack of additional traffic to justify more flights.

4. You always have to consider the hub functions etc.

and after all, you should be a bit more optimistic and also face the reality that smaller carriers either work together or will be subordinated to the big guys.

Cheers!


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2728 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (14 years 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1702 times:

First class,
believe me, your clarifications are very well known to the people working for SN.
They are exactly the same as those given to us by SR...



User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 18, posted (14 years 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1693 times:

Politically SR is not depending on SN's EU membership. Switzerland and the EU have signed a bilateral contract which gives Swiss airlines the same rights in the EU. By the way this is the only possibility for SAirGroup to take over the majority of SN.

User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (14 years 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1685 times:

ZRH, you're right that Switzerland and the EU do have an agreement, but wasn't this deal postponed? In any case, SAir Groups involvement in SN was (or mabye still is) driven by the fact they needed a hub in the EU.

regards
Laurens Janssen


User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2728 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (13 years 12 months 1 hour ago) and read 1667 times:

Hi ZRH-
You're a bit wrong on that last remark of you...
The contract between the EU and Switserland is on a kind of trial basis only with a lot of rules.
Basically it means there are certain conditions which have to be met by SR in order to benefit from it. If these rules are broken, the deal can be suspended immediately.
One is the rules is that if SR takes the mayority in a EU carrier, they may not make any changes to that carrier's network in favour of their own network.
Maybe you haven't seen this yet, but SR recently broke this rule by pushing SN (via the Blue Sky reform plan) to scrap the flights to Johannesburg. Of course SR immediately introduced a code share flight Brussels-Zurich-Johannesburg, thus draining about 100 pax a day from Sn to SR's network!
The BeCA (Belgian Cockpit Association, the union of Sabena pilots that is) will now try to push the Belgian government to take action in the European Parliament.
Note that if this happens, it might be a huge disaster to SR (and also SN?)...
Anyway, we all hope it will not have to come to this,
but it seems SR has pushed its luck somewhat too far this time.


User currently offlineTWAneedsNOhelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (13 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1645 times:

Whats the problem in France? Why havent AOM and Air Liberte been successfully integrated already...Union troubles, management intransigence...

They've been planning on putting these two carriers together for a long time..whats the problem? Combine their slots, rationalize their fleets around A340, DC-10, and MD-80....and create a true connecting hub at CDG to rival Air France. Add Air Littoral as Air Liberte Express, a FF program linked to Swissair, Sabena, LOT, TAP, and Turkish, and it should start taking shape...


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 22, posted (13 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1643 times:

Sabenapilot: You are not right. These contracts are seven bilateral contracts between the EU and Switzerland. One of them is about traffic (land and air). They are not on trial basis an can not be suspended at once. It won't be possible to suspend only one contract (e.g. air and land traffic) without suspending all other 6 contracts (working, trading and others). So it has nothing to do with Swissair. The only thing is, when the contracts will be ratified (probably July next year) SR can act almost like an EU airline and the EU airlines in Switzerland like in EU countries.
I have to know it because we had a referendum (we had to vote) about it.


User currently offlineSR3496 From Switzerland, joined May 2000, 792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (13 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1623 times:

Actually the Swiss airlines will get ALL the rights an EU airline already has. This mean also to fly within EU countries. But not all these rigths at one moment, they are introduced within the next 2 or 3 years after the contract has been ratified by all EU countries.


User currently offlineCeilidh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (13 years 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1616 times:

Sabenapilot - you've forgotten (or maybe are not aware) of some of the following ways in which SAir makes money out of SN:

1) All of SN's aircraft are leased in from/through SAir group companies
2) Pax reservations are through SAir's system - SAir gets money every time a PNR is accessed
3) The maintenance on the Airbuses are generally carried out by SAir - at commercial rates - whilst Sabena Technics has to provide services to SAir at cost. This means that Sabena actually pays more to have its aircraft maintained in BRU than it costs them in direct terms!
4) All catering is provided by or through Gate Gourmet, an SAir company
5) SAir still intends to expatriate Belgian crews in an effort to reduce costs (and especially social costs) - employing them through an SAir company and leasing them to the operating company (SN or DT).
6) SN has to use Swissport for its handling wherever possible - and third party contracts are provided through SAir.


25 Gerardo : About the French airlines: SAirGroup had indeed problems with the unions. SAirGroups goals were to high, the timetable too short. Now it seems, that t
26 ZRH : Without the money of SAirGroup, Sabena would not excist anymore in our days. By the way to Ceilidh: Swissair pays the same prices to SRTechnics, Gate
27 Krushny : Funnily, all the gloom and doom stories about SAir that I heard lately are originated in Belgium... looks like the national pride was hurt by the tak
28 Post contains images Sabenapilot : Put your Swiss glasses aside ZRH, As a Sabena pilot, I am afraid you do not know what you are talking about when you talk about the SN-SR alliance. Yo
29 LOT767-300ER : Well i hope Swissair will sell their stock in LOT back to them!
30 ZRH : Sabenapilot: Belgian parliament will ratify these contracts when all other EU countries do. They have to, because the EU countries also have big advan
31 Sabenapilot : Did you know their is a clause in the contract between the Belgian state and SR that all shares can/must be taken back by the Belgian State at the pri
32 ZRH : I think you don't know how many hundreds of millions of francs SAir has put into SN. There is no end to it.
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