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Frontier To Forgo Airbus Aircraft Option, For Now  
User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8517 times:

A story in the Rocky Mountain News today, 6/29. Rates must me much better today than in 2005.


http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drm.../0,2777,DRMN_23912_5608141,00.html

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7078 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 8456 times:

In other words Airbus has to change the prices............


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineEclipz From France, joined Jun 2006, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 8375 times:

"The terms are good, but I'm not so sure they're better than what we could get now."
Do you think he is talking about Airbus when he talks about what he could get now ? It sounds strange to me as the A320 family is still very popular so i don't really understand why he says that... does anybody have an explanation ?


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 8332 times:

Quoting Eclipz (Reply 2):
Do you think he is talking about Airbus when he talks about what he could get now ? It sounds strange to me as the A320 family is still very popular so i don't really understand why he says that... does anybody have an explanation ?

I have a feeling that WN in the Denver market has started to erode both marketshare and profit for Frontier. In addition I feel that Frontier is going to rely more and more on regional aircraft for expansion in lieu of the mainline equipment. It doesnt have anything to do with price from my point of view. I think the Frontier Economic Reality Check is starting to come into play.

-JD


User currently offlineGeotrash From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8098 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 3):
I have a feeling that WN in the Denver market has started to erode both marketshare and profit for Frontier.

From a local perspective- I'm a loyal Frontier passenger. I fly them from DEN-SLC every other week, plus lots of other flying. Lately, Frontier's ticket prices have been really high on the SLC route, even with a 2 week advanced purchase. I tried to book a ticket last week for the week of the 9th, and they wanted $450. Delta was $330 and Southwest was $249. I had no choice per my corporate travel policy and went with Southwest.

2 weeks before that was a similar story. If the costs are high because the seats are already full, good for Frontier, but as a business traveler often making plans at the last minute, I'm finding myself forced into Southwest for some of my flying at the moment.

Dave


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8031 times:

Quoting Geotrash (Reply 4):
If the costs are high because the seats are already full, good for Frontier, but as a business traveler often making plans at the last minute, I'm finding myself forced into Southwest for some of my flying at the moment

You have just summed up the reason that Southwest Airlines has been such a success. This day in age people are looking less at the soft product(for the most part their is no soft product left to differentiate airlines), and more and more at price. Why pay $400+, when you can fly $295.00 on WN and get there at the same time. I think that UAL and F9 are both going to be hit even more hard by the recent expansion in the Denver market.

If rumors are true that WN is trying to erode profits for F9 in DEN, and head thier value down to a valuable purchase rate for WN.. It will become even more interesting..

-JD


User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7961 times:

I can say that the Frontier flights are extremely full right now. I was at DIA the other day and the lines are long, the concourse is full. I know some employees are trying to fly these days and the Frontier flights being full, they are using Southwest as a backup (at least to the places they fly that are the same as Frontier from DIA) and they have been able to get on. Maybe their prices are lower because they have seats to fill and Frontier doesnt.

User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7939 times:

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 6):
Maybe their prices are lower because they have seats to fill and Frontier doesnt.

The WN 737-300 holds more pax (131)than the F9 A318(114), that may be why..  wink 

Remember the recent storms that have paralyzed the East Coast have forced F9 routes to be filled to capacity with people re booking existing reservations, and being moved from one flight to another for protection.

-JD


User currently offlineGeotrash From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7901 times:

Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 6):
I can say that the Frontier flights are extremely full right now. I was at DIA the other day and the lines are long, the concourse is full. I know some employees are trying to fly these days and the Frontier flights being full, they are using Southwest as a backup (at least to the places they fly that are the same as Frontier from DIA) and they have been able to get on. Maybe their prices are lower because they have seats to fill and Frontier doesnt.

Yes, I think this is likely the case. Over the past few years I've noticed that Frontier's seat prices seem to go up as their seats actually fill. On the very few Frontier flights I've been on at less than capacity, I have been able to get reasonable ticket prices up until the last minute.

I think the flights these past few weeks are so full because they had CHEAP fares on the DEN-SLC run for a few months and lots of people probably booked their summer vacations to visit family at those prices. Maybe in a few months once the hordes of vacationers who got bargains well in advance work through the system, fares and loads will normalize. Still, if a guy who flies every week like me finds himself being forced more and more to the competition, that can't be good for Frontier in the long run. I might just get accustomed to another FF program  eek 

Of course, every Southwest flight I've been on has been packed to capacity as well, so I don't think anyone is going out with many empty seats.

Dave


User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7863 times:

Quoting Geotrash (Reply 8):
so I don't think anyone is going out with many empty seats.

That is true, every ticket counter i saw was full that day.


User currently offlineRdwelch From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7817 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
The WN 737-300 holds more pax (131)than the F9 A318(114), that may be why..

But not more that the more plentiful A319 (132), but I see your point.

Gus


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 7793 times:

Quoting Eclipz (Reply 2):
"The terms are good, but I'm not so sure they're better than what we could get now."
Do you think he is talking about Airbus when he talks about what he could get now ? It sounds strange to me as the A320 family is still very popular so i don't really understand why he says that... does anybody have an explanation ?

I'll get flamed for this, but it's likely that Airbus has driven this "popular" demand by lower prices. They have had huge sales numbers for the A320 in the last 3 years, trying to win new customers, but if their current customers start to notice these deals, they are going to ask "why can't we get this lower price?" It's the Air Indian syndrome. "We deserve the lowest price for all purchases."



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineGeotrash From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 7754 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 5):
This day in age people are looking less at the soft product(for the most part their is no soft product left to differentiate airlines), and more and more at price.

This is probably true up to a point. However, I would routinely pay a higher fare (up to $100) per ticket to do business with an airline I prefer, like Frontier...even when traveling on my own dime. I fly United often as well- particularly for international routes, and recently paid an extra $190 for a ticket to London on United because I knew the E+ seat would be more comfortable.

I think the main thing is that the "soft" product things like good service, FF programs and critter tails are absolutely important. Price is a primary factor, no question, but people will still pay more for good service and a company they perceive as being superior. How much more they will pay and at what point they will jump ship is the thing that good airline marketers must understand.

Cheers,
Dave


User currently offlineBNAtraveler From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 412 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7612 times:
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Quoting Rdwelch (Reply 10):
Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7):
The WN 737-300 holds more pax (131)than the F9 A318(114), that may be why..

But not more that the more plentiful A319 (132), but I see your point.

WN's 737-300s and 737-700s hold 137. There are currently around 4 planes riding around with a bit fewer, but they will be modified in the near term to match capacity.

WN's 737-500 holds 122 (same as what their 737-200 held)


User currently offlineRdwelch From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7556 times:

Quoting BNAtraveler (Reply 13):
WN's 737-300s and 737-700s hold 137. There are currently around 4 planes riding around with a bit fewer, but they will be modified in the near term to match capacity.

WN's 737-500 holds 122 (same as what their 737-200 held)

I always wondered how much the 735 held, thanks. Anyhow I was pointing out to FLYGUY767 that F9 has only 10 318 to almost 50 319s, so the comparison was a little tilted.

Gus.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25426 posts, RR: 86
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7515 times:
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Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 3):
I have a feeling that WN in the Denver market has started to erode both marketshare and profit for Frontier.

Profits? The storms did that. Up until the winter storms, Frontier had been profitable for the financial year.

Market share? Frontier's market share has gone up since Spithwest arrived at DEN, according to th Wall Street Journal.

No question that Southwest wants to be No. 2 at DEN - but they're not there yet.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJkarp2112 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7483 times:

I really like Frontier, but, Southwest is making a nice impression at DIA. Examples - much shorter/faster check-in, and *no* overweight charges on my luggage on WN on the outbound after paying a fee on F9 on the inbound.

Couple with the fact that F9 will be adding seats and thus reducing pitch this year I have to give WN the nod for keeping with 33" - that means a TON to a 6'5" person like me.


User currently offlineAirMike2 From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 33 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7432 times:

I will be helping Southwest get to number 2 by spending my money with them - and not an airline that charges me $50.00 because my bag is two pounds overweight. What's the point in advertising You're a whole different animal if you're not?

User currently offlineGeotrash From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7402 times:

Quoting AirMike2 (Reply 17):
and not an airline that charges me $50.00 because my bag is two pounds overweight.

Mike,

This is but one of literally dozens of issues that you can either choose to use as a reason to ignore all of the great service and good karma that Frontier provides in other areas...or not. I hope the baggage allowance doesn't become the watershed issue for you.

Dave


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7353 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
Profits? The storms did that. Up until the winter storms, Frontier had been profitable for the financial year.

The Financial Year has not ended yet..  wink 

Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
Market share? Frontier's market share has gone up since Spithwest arrived at DEN, according to th Wall Street Journal.

Southwest Airlines? ... I am not aware of a Spithwest Airlines..

Regarding the WSJ, it is not the greatest source for information on any and all things aviation related. Is there a source for F9's market share rising since WN entered the Denver market?

Quoting AirMike2 (Reply 17):
What's the point in advertising You're a whole different animal if you're not?

 checkmark 

Interesting that you mention that. A friend of mine flew his parents from California to New York on Frontier Airlines via Denver. On Frontiers website they advertise free snacks are offered onboard. On the SAN-DEN flight nothing was offered by a beverage, and on the DEN-LGA flight the beverages were offered twice with nothing else. On the return segment the flight was delayed 5 hours departing LGA forcing a missed connection in Denver. The Rep in Denver handed his parents a hotel phone number. When his parents asked why the airline didn't take care of the room, the Agent remarked something to tune of "You missed your connection, it was weather related, it was not the airlines fault". Then the only flight they offered to put his parents on the next day was at 8am, mind you they arrived in Denver at 1130pm. Or else they would have to buy their ticket on another airline. Which they indeed did, they purchased a ticket on United Airlines.

So in turn, I dont believe F9 is any different than UA, AA, or anybody else..

Quoting Rdwelch (Reply 14):
I always wondered how much the 735 held, thanks. Anyhow I was pointing out to FLYGUY767 that F9 has only 10 318 to almost 50 319s, so the comparison was a little tilted.

A319 or A318, makes no difference on average WN has more seats available than Frontier Airlines..

-JD


User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7351 times:

I think that

Quoting Jkarp2112 (Reply 16):
much shorter/faster check-in

Considering that Frontier has 6 times the number of flights a day, i could see the WN counter being faster. But Frontier has added kiosks across their entire ticket counter now and added several carry on only kiosk separate from the regular check in line to make it faster for the people who only have a carry on.


User currently offlineYtib From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 575 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7343 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 19):
The Financial Year has not ended yet..

Well a Financial Year is always happening, however the financial year with this past winters storms in Denver ended 3 months ago.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25426 posts, RR: 86
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7334 times:
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Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 19):
The Financial Year has not ended yet..

Frontier's Financial Year has only just begun. They are still in 1Q, they have not reported 1Q earnings.

As to market share, I'm not sure how many sources you want:

http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_6236600

"Frontier Airlines and Southwest Airlines have both increased their market share at DIA"

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineRdwelch From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7288 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 19):
A319 or A318, makes no difference on average WN has more seats available than Frontier Airlines..

Uh....ok. It does when you give specifics and then change it to generalities to make the point. And, no they don't have more available seats out of DEN.

Gus


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7288 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
As to market share, I'm not sure how many sources you want

Mariner,

The article is broad and does not say over what period they are talking about growth. In addition it is more than evident in the article that United Airlines has dropped in the market. What I find most amusing is the article is still clinging onto the hope of Air China starting service to Denver. It was also amusing to see the way the United Airlines rep danced around the reasons for not flying to Asia.

Thanks for the read in any case.. The bit about Air China and Denver was some great late afternoon humor!

-JD


25 Mariner : I can only shrug. There are two reputable newspapers, the Wall Street Journal and the Denver Post, saying Frontier's market share has increased. The
26 Usairways85 : Anyone think this plays into the B6, F9 merger rumors that have been running around the past few hours
27 Post contains links FATFlyer : Well how about the Denver airport statistics. WN started at DEN in Jan 2006. DEN breaks out JetExpress separate from F9. It also divides domestic and
28 VictorKilo : Based on the above statistics, United has lost 1.6 percent of market share since the arrival of Southwest, but Frontier has gained 1.2 points of marke
29 F9Animal : This is no big news. Frontier is just being smart about money and growth. Frontier has a hill to climb, and there is no doubt they will climb to the t
30 OPNLguy : N270WN, N271LV, N550WN, and N551WN, all recently acquired birds on the used market, have 128 seats. They'll all be standardized to 137 the first half
31 Itsnotfinals : It must be market by market based. UA and F9 are almost always cheaper than WN to PHX except for full Y which is the same.
32 Bicoastal : Same for UA employees. UA's flights are so full that employees are being forced to buy walkup fares on Southwest and JetBlue. There's no room on UA f
33 Mariner : That's a puzzle. The Frontier website shows fares for all that week (July 9) and none is higher than $284, most are around $260. Travelocity is offer
34 Post contains links Alphascan : Interesting that you write about "feelings", but require others to "document". Then when you get the documentation provided to you, you get these "fe
35 CarsAir04 : I do think it is bad that they do this, but I know when I have flown, the agent at the ticket counter will point out the weight and allow you to do a
36 Rdwelch : All airlines have an overweight bag policy. All airlines will allow you to move items from one bag to another to keep one form being overweight. If bo
37 Alphascan : CFO Tate announced at the investor (should actually read analyst) conference that F9 was implementing new policies (software?) that would make the emp
38 AirFrnt : I honestly beleive there is going to be a glut of A320s and 737s available soon as everyone starts holding their orders until Y1 is proposed. False T
39 Mham001 : Don't tell anybody I said this but on many scales at the counter with the right shoes, you can "alleviate" some of the weight by gently lifting your
40 Post contains images F9fan : Keep in mind that WN has only five gates at DEN, and by the end of the year they will be either at or very close to capacity. While they are building
41 Manni : The terms Frontier negotaited for these options were negotiated in 2005. That's during these years of high demand. It seems that Frontier is convince
42 Post contains images Mariner : You must be one of the few posters here who took what Frontier said at face value, examined it, found a valid business reason for it and did not find
43 FLYGUY767 : When the source is DIA I question most things. Remember they are the airport that still thinks Air China is coming to town, and that United Airlines
44 Alphascan : These are operating statistics, not crystal ball readings. If you have a need to to continue to argue when you have been proven wrong (what five or s
45 Post contains images Columba : Merger Spirit/Southwest
46 KingCavalier : The same can be said of Hawaiian, Alaska, Aloha, Spirit and just about every airline that operates outside of the US. Niche airlines can stand alone
47 FLYGUY767 : Alaska Airlines has a much stronger brand recognition than Frontier hands down.. Alaska Airlines in not a niche airline. It is the hub airline at Sea
48 Ikramerica : I didn't say it was lower profit, only that in the scant 2 years since Frontier placed those options, it seems that the going rate for a 1st tier cus
49 KingCavalier : Maybe if you live in Alaska or on the west coast. Not many people east of the Mississippi river have an opportunity to fly Alaska. Maybe, but they ar
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