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Is US Reconfiguring Their A321?  
User currently offlineRolo987 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 293 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4335 times:

I just booked a flight on US on one of their A321. On the seat selection screen on usairways.com, coach begins at row 5. On Seatguru, they list coach starting at row 8. Is US putting more coach seats on their A321?

53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineProPHX From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4314 times:

Yes. US is reducing their first class cabins on their A321 aircraft down to 16. It's a really poor business decision, as not only will elite members who find it more difficult to upgrade start to jump ship, but according to an FA on a recent flight the increased weight due to increased capacity has resulted in unexpected fuel stops on some of the longer routes. So, to make a few extra $$$ with additional coach seats, US is alienating not only its elite flyers, but potentially every passenger on the plane.

User currently offlineRolo987 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 293 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4010 times:

So there's a chance my PHL-LAX leg will have to stop for fuel. Great

User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9268 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3993 times:

Gotta love US Airways, right, the best airline in the world?


Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3970 times:

Quoting Rolo987 (Reply 2):
So there's a chance my PHL-LAX leg will have to stop for fuel. Great

The PHL-LAX route has a 10% chance of on time arrival according to usair.com

EDIT, It looks as if most don't have the 10%, just mine  Yeah sure LAX-PHL flight 734...

[Edited 2007-06-30 22:36:50]


"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineShannoninAMA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3957 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 4):
The PHL-LAX route has a 10% chance of on time arrival according to usair.com

Now THATS promising  Wink



Shannon  half 


User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2726 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3902 times:

According to the Airbus website, there are two versions of the A321, including an upgraded version with a MGTOW of 206,000lbs vs. 183,000 lbs., fuel capacity of 7885 gal. vs 6300 gal and engines with 33,000 lbs thrust vs. 27,000 lbs. of thrust.

The low GW version has a miserable range of just 2,350 NM, or JFK-SFO in still wind. The LGTOW version's fuel capacity is 10% less than the 738 and 25% less than the 739ER with aux tanks.

Even the HGTOW A321 has the same fuel capacity of the 738 and 15% less than the 739ER, even though the A321 has a 30,000 lbs. higher GTOW (20,000lbs higher than 739ER). And some call the 739ER a pig.

What's surprising is that Airbus shows the A321 with JFK-DUB range (JFK-DUB is 500 NM farther than JFK-SFO)

Which version does US have?

[Edited 2007-06-30 23:10:58]

User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9268 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3831 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 6):
Which version does US have?

Given what I have heard about their A321 service, probably the one that is less fuel efficient, er whatever... I have constantly heard of transcon A321 flights having to stop at either PHX or LAS for a fuel stop...

but most of the time I don't know what I am talking about, but that could be due to the fact that most ppl I quote and take this knowledge from don't know what they're talking about either...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineStarCityFlyr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3776 times:

In speaking with a former US Airways mechanic, I was told that all of the A321's that US has came with the same power plant as the 319's. They are not nearly as efficient on the 321's as they are on the 319's. As a consequence, stopping for fuel on east to west flights has to occur pretty regularly. Seems to me the 757 would make a lot better sense.

JMHO...

Happy Flying All


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3758 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 6):
Which version does US have?

US has A321-200s but I dont think that they have the max weight options....

Quoting ProPHX (Reply 1):
but according to an FA on a recent flight the increased weight due to increased capacity has resulted in unexpected fuel stops on some of the longer routes.

I dont really think that this is the case, swapping 2 rows of F for 3 rows of Y adds 10 passengers in total, if all seats are occupied. In US's configuration, I dont think that a range problem results from this modification.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 7):
Given what I have heard about their A321 service, probably the one that is less fuel efficient, er whatever... I have constantly heard of transcon A321 flights having to stop at either PHX or LAS for a fuel stop...

Constantly? Or every now and then when there are weather issues in the the northeast and/or ATC has everything east of STL backed up? Speakikng of PHX and LAS, I have heard that those airports are the most problematic for US and its A321s......the aircraft struggles on very hot summer days when its takeoff performance is impacted. Meaning, the A321s cant take enough fuel for a nonstop flight to the east coast. There was a reason that America West kept their 752s for as long as they did....the A321 was not a good alternative for PHX/LAX-east coast nonstops.

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 6):
What's surprising is that Airbus shows the A321 with JFK-DUB range (JFK-DUB is 500 NM farther than JFK-SFO)

JFK-DUB on an A321, scary thought, bring you swim suit........all kidding aside, absolute range and real-world range, taking into account all operating variables, are very different things. While ""on paper"" an A321 could fly JFK-DUB, in the real world an airline would not attempt such a flight as it would be nothing more than a big operational headache.

-----------------

The A321 is a good airplane, no discussion, and a very effecient one at that, but it does have its limitations and using it for transcon flights can be problematic when real world issues such as winds, ATC problems, weather, airport delays and the like all come into play. The A321 can fly the transcon routes on most occassions, but real world issues will cause a fuel stop when conditions are difficult.....the A321 is not a 752 and doesnt have hundreds and hundred of miles of extra range and fuel capacity.

A few years ago, US (pre merger) decided to transfer its 757s to leisure routes (ie FLorida) and use the A321s on premium routes (ie transcons).......whose bright idea was that?


User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3929 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3734 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 6):

The low GW version has a miserable range of just 2,350 NM, or JFK-SFO in still wind. The LGTOW version's fuel capacity is 10% less than the 738 and 25% less than the 739ER with aux tanks.



Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 6):

Even the HGTOW A321 has the same fuel capacity of the 738 and 15% less than the 739ER, even though the A321 has a 30,000 lbs. higher GTOW (20,000lbs higher than 739ER). And some call the 739ER a pig.

I f you are going to do a comparison, compare like with like. Compare the A320 with the 738, or the A321 with the 737-900. The -900 was boeings first attempt to counter the A321, the ER is the upgraded model, and is a decade younger than the A321. Even then, it still needs AUX fuel tanks to compare with the A321. Its a trade-off, cargo capacity or fuel. It is up to the airline to decide.

Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2726 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3693 times:

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 10):
f you are going to do a comparison, compare like with like. Compare the A320 with the 738, or the A321 with the 737-900. The -900 was boeings first attempt to counter the A321, the ER is the upgraded model, and is a decade younger than the A321. Even then, it still needs AUX fuel tanks to compare with the A321. Its a trade-off, cargo capacity or fuel. It is up to the airline to decide.

I agree, but it seems to me that the A321 should be compared to the original 739, not the ER version. CO has twleve 739s and don't even think about putting them on a transcon. Boeing's website doesn't even show the range of the 739, but I'd bet it's as good as the low Gross Weight A321.

It sounds like US management has made a poor decision to roue A321s on routes they cannot complete during the summer when the west to east winds are less than in the winter. They should be rouited on PHL-Florida and other high demand routes of 4 hours or less.

[Edited 2007-07-01 01:09:43]

User currently offlineFlyboyaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3685 times:

Quoting ProPHX (Reply 1):
Yes. US is reducing their first class cabins on their A321 aircraft down to 16. It's a really poor business decision, as not only will elite members who find it more difficult to upgrade start to jump ship, but according to an FA on a recent flight the increased weight due to increased capacity has resulted in unexpected fuel stops on some of the longer routes. So, to make a few extra $$$ with additional coach seats, US is alienating not only its elite flyers, but potentially every passenger on the plane.

They looked at the economics of the plane, rather than what the customer prefers...which while not great, is in the best interest of the business. I was surprised they didn't knock it down to 12 like all the other Airbus...at least it's at 16.

The A321 had range issues before the reconfiguration, and it was discussed. However they stated the extra revenue does outweigh the cost of making a fuel stop. It doesn't happen as often as you would like to think. They also stated if they see it happening a lot, they will reduce capacity to be booked, similiar to what B6 does on their transcons.

On another note, the A321's will not be doing much transcon flying soon. They will be shifted to the more high density short haul flying...the 757's will be used primarily for Hawaii and Transatlantic....we will be losing all the HP birds and some of the older US ones. Basically you will see A320's doing most of the longer flights, with A319's and A321's supplementing.

With our cost and fare structure, having 26 first class seats was just too much. It was great when the legacy US did a lot of transcon flying, but that has been reduced so it's no longer necessary.


User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3675 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 6):
Which version does US have?

CFM56 - the Lower Thrust engine option. Yes, the US 319 and 321 have the same engine.
There is a "theory" that since the reconfigured 320 has in fact required more fuel stops than before refitting due to a weight increase, the reconfigured 321 will also.


User currently offlineDl767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3501 times:

well no wonder no one wants to merge with them! If they are willing to randomly make fuel stops to make a few extra bucks on coach then us will eventually be bought out and fixed but us will probably not buy another airline

User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4142 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3462 times:

Quoting StarCityFlyr (Reply 8):
Seems to me the 757 would make a lot better sense.



Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 11):
It sounds like US management has made a poor decision to roue A321s on routes they cannot complete during the summer when the west to east winds are less than in the winter. They should be rouited on PHL-Florida and other high demand routes of 4 hours or less.

Yes, 757s are a better transcon option. But how many of those are floating around on the market right now? The ones we have now are maintenance hogs anyway, it's a tradeoff between a possible fuel stop for the A321 and a 3 hour mx delay for the 757. Either way it's not good.


User currently offlineFlyabunch From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3433 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 15):
Yes, 757s are a better transcon option. But how many of those are floating around on the market right now? The ones we have now are maintenance hogs anyway,

Are they maintenance hogs because they have been beat to death? Don't get me wrong, I am Gold Elite on US and I will be Chairman's by the end of this year but I do wonder about the logic of the 321's for transcon with the reduced First Class.

I have flown the 321's twice this year and they did fine from CLT to PHX and back but I would not be too happy if we had to stop. I have always enjoyed the 757's and have never had a delay on them. Is it more common than I am seeing? I have had more problems with maintenance delays on 320's and 319's. Everything from lavatory problems to engine issues.

Mike


User currently offlineMalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3422 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 15):
Yes, 757s are a better transcon option. But how many of those are floating around on the market right now? The ones we have now are maintenance hogs anyway, it's a tradeoff between a possible fuel stop for the A321 and a 3 hour mx delay for the 757. Either way it's not good.

My CLT-LAS flight (757s) that I take is almost atleast 1-2 hours delayed every week.



There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3413 times:

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 16):

My last trip had 8 segments including 3 757's, 2 320's, and a 319, and all three of the Airbus flights had mx delays, and all three of the 75 flights were on time...probably just a coincidence, but in my hundereds of thousands of miles of air travel, I know I have had more mx delays on the 320 family then on the 757/767 family.



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineFCYTravis From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 1191 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3366 times:

The A321 reconfiguration has cost US a number of elite members - including myself. I was an 85k Plat last year, and that's gone to 0k this year. Switched over to United. Anecdotal reports are that it's difficult even for Chairman's pax to get upgraded on transcons - and given the stingy US meal policy, transcons are about the only flights where upgrades mean anything more than a bigger seat and free booze.

Many US transcons have been cut to A319s, to boot.



USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
User currently offlineAsuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2373 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3306 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 7):
I have constantly heard of transcon A321 flights having to stop at either PHX or LAS for a fuel stop...

What's your definition of "constantly?" And even still, it is mainly an issue in the wintertime when headwinds are stronger.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 9):
While ""on paper"" an A321 could fly JFK-DUB, in the real world an airline would not attempt such a flight as it would be nothing more than a big operational headache.

On paper the A321 has the range to fly JFK-DUB. It's DUB-JFK that would be the problem.


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4142 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 16):
Are they maintenance hogs because they have been beat to death? Don't get me wrong, I am Gold Elite on US and I will be Chairman's by the end of this year but I do wonder about the logic of the 321's for transcon with the reduced First Class.
I have flown the 321's twice this year and they did fine from CLT to PHX and back but I would not be too happy if we had to stop. I have always enjoyed the 757's and have never had a delay on them. Is it more common than I am seeing? I have had more problems with maintenance delays on 320's and 319's. Everything from lavatory problems to engine issues.

The ex-HP birds are in rougher shape than the former US ones. Older, more wear and tear, just very tired aircraft. Our ops guys dread the Saturday 757 we get because they have such bad reps.
We do have occasional issues with the Airbuses but it's usually minor stuff as far as I've seen. They are fairly finicky planes, our 737s at least are made of sterner stuff even if they are not as comfortable.


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9268 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3143 times:

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 20):
What's your definition of "constantly?" And even still, it is mainly an issue in the wintertime when headwinds are stronger.

Ok, "constantly" was obviously not be best word... Suppose I said, "every now and then," as someone else pointed out before.

I would have to agree that the 757s would be ideal for transcons, even A320s...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineFlyboyaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3126 times:

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 19):
The A321 reconfiguration has cost US a number of elite members - including myself. I was an 85k Plat last year, and that's gone to 0k this year. Switched over to United. Anecdotal reports are that it's difficult even for Chairman's pax to get upgraded on transcons - and given the stingy US meal policy, transcons are about the only flights where upgrades mean anything more than a bigger seat and free booze.

That's sad to hear actually. I'm surprised that Chairman's are having a hard time getting upgraded....but on a good note, that means we are probably selling more FC seats, which is good for revenue. Our FC products are being upgraded and coach as well...which is great in my opinion. Even being an LCC, we have to be at least competitive with other carriers. I'll be interested to see what they come up with.

How is UA better for upgrades though? Their 319/320 have the same or less seats in FC than ours do and their 757's only have a few more in FC. Granted their service is better, but I would think their pool of elite members is larger than ours.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 21):
The ex-HP birds are in rougher shape than the former US ones.

Man, tell me about it. I was very happy to hear we are getting rid of them. I think they do fairly well now since they have them running longer flights to Hawaii. Before they used them on such short flights...like PHX-SAN, they really took a beating.

[Edited 2007-07-01 15:51:46]

User currently offlineItsnotfinals From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3106 times:

Quoting Flyboyaz (Reply 23):
How is UA better for upgrades though?

much worse than US.

I am Gold on US and I can hardly wait for the improvements Doug has promised, US's first isn't so good, but getting better.

The last time I was on a 321 PHX-CLT the super hot flight attendant made up for the hot pocket they served by smiling alot and keeping my wine glass topped off the entire flight. Thankfully I didn't have to drive  Smile

[Edited 2007-07-01 16:03:22]

25 Flyboyaz : That's what I figured.... Yes I know...they haven't said much about what they are doing, except upgrading the meals and adding glass cups and silverw
26 Post contains images Dutchjet : Funny, US offers zero service on all domestic flights........and then you go on to criticize CO's service and meal offerings?
27 ANCFlyer : No kidding . . . comparing CO's domestic F class service/meals/comfort to US's any F class is laughable. CO beats US hands down, no question. Sad to
28 Post contains images Itsnotfinals : They are adding seats to the US East 757's, the east birds have only 2 rows so they can't get much worse CO's product is much better absolutely. The
29 Post contains images Flyboyaz : Zero service? Last time I flew to PHL (May 07) they served a meal of some kind in FC...I know because I could smell it! We don't try to compare ourse
30 Post contains images Itsnotfinals : at least you got something DL's TUS-ATL morning departure in F gets you nothing at all, except all the free lotus cookies you want.....
31 Bkircher : I personaly have never flown on a A321, but in opinion all of their planes including the AWA's planes need to have the interior updated. Personal ife
32 N822ME : Exactly why I've gone from US Airways Chairman's Preferred to nothing. It's truly pathetic when your best customers (or now former customers) think th
33 Boston92 : I love the UA morning LAX-DEN on the 757 in F because they actually serve you a breakfast, and it is pretty damn good too.
34 CALPSAFltSkeds : What's the deal with US Airways being called LCC (stock symbol). It sounds like a joke for one of the traditionally highest cost carriers to be hypin
35 FCYTravis : A few more? No, try almost double - the 757s are 24F, and there are 97 of them in the UA fleet. Furthermore, the F-cabin product is substantially sup
36 Rolo987 : 1. US' A321s are actually quite nice to fly on. Nicer than their 737s and 757s. 2. Most airlines have a few seats on their aircraft with misaligned w
37 Nzrich : Actually reducing seats is actually a good thing for profits instead of giving away seats at $ 00 and upgrading passengers maybe they will actually ea
38 FCYTravis : But the F-cabin product that US offers is so uncompetitive that there can't possibly be any significant number of people paying for it. It's an indus
39 Itsnotfinals : It's about equal to DL' and NW's first. UA's customer service (gate agents) are a joke, so they are all about even.
40 Laxintl : Well you might want to subtract the 13 p.s. configured aircraft. But before you get to comfortable with United's configurations be aware they are the
41 FCYTravis : Those actually have even more premium cabin capacity - 12F/26C/72Y. Best premium-to-Y ratio of any aircraft flown by a US airline. There's never been
42 Post contains images Laxintl : I guess you'll see when it happens. Currently 1st plane is due in for mods week of Nov 5th. While the 757 might run seemingly business markets includ
43 Flighty : Exactly, so that is why they're cutting the size of First on the A321. Honestly people, why be so, so emotional. This is a good business decision tha
44 ScottB : The question really is whether this decision will also lower RASM enough to outweigh the lower CASM. US is seeing formerly loyal Preferred Dividend M
45 Flighty : Oh really. And the reconfig has not even begun yet! So, what are your anecdotal reports talking about, anyway? 757 routes out of Vegas perhaps? I dou
46 ProPHX : The reconfiguration on US A321s has begun. I've been on two flights with the smaller FC. I was not upgraded on either segment, and I was gold at the
47 FCYTravis : That's categorically false. At least one aircraft, if not more, has already gone through the F-ectomy. Furthermore, as I said, many of the transcons
48 HPRamper : Hell of a lot newer. Nothing is as bad as those Mesa RJ's imo. Maybe United, et al have a loyal base of FF who regularly pay full price for F tickets
49 Dutchjet : A few years ago, CO reduced F class seating on its 753s to 12 seats (the 753s were intended to fly to high demand, low yeild destinaitons.....think M
50 Laxintl : While I can understand how some FF'ers might feel disappointed or frustrated, lets look at it from the airlines point of view. To explain my point, I
51 Aa757first : US's B757s have 8 First Class seats and 185 Economy seats. Because it seated a lot of passengers, and I'm assuming because of its better performance
52 Dutchjet : US came up with the 8/185 configuration when it decided that the 757 would fly the leisure routes and the A321 would fly the premium routes. The seat
53 Nzrich : Yes but getting them mad keeping things as status quo and making a loss is not really a good business decision also .. There has to be a fine balanci
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