Humberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4901 posts, RR: 5 Posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4398 times:
Key points:
KL likely to axe LHR-EIN - a big blow for EIN, but sadly this is what happens when LHR slots are in so much demand
Those slots to be used by NW (likely to leave LGW altogther I guess)
AF to reduce LHR-CDG to provide slots for DL
CO also likely to get slots from KL and AF
Ejmmsu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1692 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4119 times:
Do you think it would be possible to change LHR-EIN to LCY-EIN?
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
Humberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4901 posts, RR: 5 Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4021 times:
Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 1): Do you think it would be possible to change LHR-EIN to LCY-EIN?
If they wanted to, yes. KL have plenty of existing peak time slots at LCY they could use if they want to (and could use larger aircraft to AMS to compensate for the reduced frequencies). Slots ae an issue at LCY at peak times, as I believe it is full then
ANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3838 times:
Quoting Humberside (Thread starter): KL likely to axe LHR-EIN - a big blow for EIN, but sadly this is what happens when LHR slots are in so much demand
Those slots to be used by NW (likely to leave LGW altogther I guess)
KL currently has two daily flights, 5 days a week between EIN and LHR. The morining slot pair has an arrival at 0705 and a departure at 0815. I suppose an 1H10 turnaround is possible, but this is Heathrow ...
The evening pair 1725/1830 is even shorter - but not very attractive for Transatlantic ops.
What about Sat/Sun?
Any idea which terminal they would use? KL currently using T4 - but not sure if you could substitute a F50 with a NW widebody there.
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7175 posts, RR: 45 Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3679 times:
Do you know if AF or KL are in talks to give slots to AM now that AM is about to receive its fourth 772ER? If I am not mistaken, AM is also a party to the co-location agreement between the SkyTeam carriers and LHR for Terminal 4.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21481 posts, RR: 24 Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3659 times:
Quoting Humberside (Thread starter): KL likely to axe LHR-EIN - a big blow for EIN, but sadly this is what happens when LHR slots are in so much demand
KL's 3 daily RTM-LHR flights are probably also at risk when they need the slots for something that can generate much more revenue than a 50 seat Fokker 50. I'm not certain but I believe KL's RTM-LHR and EIN-LHR Fokker 50s may be LHR's only current scheduled flights using propeller aircraft.
Aisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 757 posts, RR: 11 Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3554 times:
Quoting ANother (Reply 4): KL currently has two daily flights, 5 days a week between EIN and LHR. The morining slot pair has an arrival at 0705 and a departure at 0815. I suppose an 1H10 turnaround is possible, but this is Heathrow ...
No need to use BOTH slots for ONE transatlantic service.
NW could arrive at 0705 and leave at 1005 (current departure of KL1008) and use the 0815 departure slot for a AMS flight.
I don't think they will play only with RTM-LHR and EIN-LHR but also with AMS-LHR and CDG-LHR
The AF-KLM group has something like 10 departure slots to AMS, 12 to CDG, 2 to EIN and 3 to RTM and the same amount of landing slots at LHR from these destinations.
It's pretty clear that the 5 F50 services form/to EIN and RTM will get axed to make room for new tatl services for DL, NW and CO. But that doesn't mean they'll have to take the very same slots formerly used by F50 flights. AF-KLM have 27 departure and 27 arrival slots and they'll be arranged to have a decent schedule. 2-3xCO, 2-3xDL, 2-3xNW, 8-10xAMS and 8x10 CDG with 1h turnarround for AMS/CDG and 2h for tatl or something similar.
VV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 6623 posts, RR: 17 Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3550 times:
The article talks of CO, DL and NW all getting an early morning arrival slot and a lunch time departure slot. Finding either suitable arrival slots or departure slots should not present too many problems. But finding both could be very difficult.
I would have thought that the likely sources of the early morning arrival slots would by AF's CDG flights and KL's EIN and RTM flights. But these all have a turn round time of around an hour or quicker. So what would happen to the departure slots currently used by these services? Some entirely different use would have to be found for them.
It seems to me that there would have to be a bit of horse trading. This would need to match these arrival slots with departure slots closer to lunchtime. It would also need to dispose of the departure slots that are part of the slot pair used by the new American carriers for their flights into LHR.
There could be two groups of such operators who might be interested. The first would currently have a large number of slots (e.g. BA and BD) so that mixing and matching arrival and departure slots becomes relatively easy. But the slot swap would need to also be advantageous to them (otherwise why help a competitor). The second group would be long haul carriers currently with an aircraft at LHR over night who have not been able to secure a departure slot until late morning when an earlier departure would be more welcome to them. Whether there are such operators I do not know.
It is also worth noting that a potential source of slots, AF, only serves CDG from LHR and has only 10 daily slot pairs while in addition to the services to EIN and RTM detailed above KL has 10 daily LHR-AMS services.. With the channel tunnel and flights from LCY I would have thought that a significant proportion of passengers on these AF flights would already transit to another (probably AF) flight at CDG. Certainly AF has from time to time advertised some of its long haul destinations in the British press. But it could try to draw passengers from other sources to compensate for any loss from LHR.
It will be interesting to see how these problems of appropriately matching arrival and departure slots pan out.
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3545 times:
slot times are regularly traded to come up w/ viable schedules at many airports. it isn't a given that any of the Skyteam carriers will end up w/ the same slot times that KL/AF operate now.
ANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2765 times:
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 9): slot times are regularly traded to come up w/ viable schedules at many airports. it isn't a given that any of the Skyteam carriers will end up w/ the same slot times that KL/AF operate now.
Agree with what you (and others have said) but I was responding to the comment of the OP
Quoting Humberside (Thread starter): KL likely to axe LHR-EIN - a big blow for EIN, but sadly this is what happens when LHR slots are in so much demand Those slots to be used by NW
Humberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4901 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2755 times:
Quoting ANother (Reply 10): Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 9):
slot times are regularly traded to come up w/ viable schedules at many airports. it isn't a given that any of the Skyteam carriers will end up w/ the same slot times that KL/AF operate now.
Agree with what you (and others have said) but I was responding to the comment of the OP
Quoting Humberside (Thread starter):
KL likely to axe LHR-EIN - a big blow for EIN, but sadly this is what happens when LHR slots are in so much demand Those slots to be used by NW
And the original source for what I posted was the KL Chief Executive, soon to be Skyteam Chairman
LHRBlueSkies From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 493 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2688 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6): Fokker 50s may be LHR's only current scheduled flights using propeller aircraft.
Yes, and it's still good to see it among ll the Airbuses and Boeings...
Quoting ANother (Reply 4): Any idea which terminal they would use? KL currently using T4 - but not sure if you could substitute a F50 with a NW widebody there.
Yeah, you could. Remember that with BA vacating T4 in March '08, and with all the airline terminal shuffle due to take place, there should be space for a few 330's, 767's and 777's in T4.
The more variety of carriers we have at LHR the better, but let's also remember we have STN & LGW that need planes...LHR isn't the best airport by a long shot!
flying is the safest form of transport - until humans get involved!
Aussiestu From Australia, joined Mar 2001, 778 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2604 times:
Will NW DL and CO pay AF/KLM for these slots? I ask this as despite all belonging to Skyteam why would any airline want to give away a slot that can literally be worth millions? What is the financial gain to AF/KLM? If any of these airlines were to ever leave Skyteam then what happens with the slots? If say DL left Skyteam and had been using AF/KLM slots for its operation then what is it going to do about staying at LHR?
No one can say for certain that any airline is going to stay within its respective alliance and there must be some way of saving slots that you have 'loaned'? But if you have been operating the slot for some time then would you not have 'grandfather' rights over it?
UAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3355 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2573 times:
Quoting Aussiestu (Reply 13): Will NW DL and CO pay AF/KLM for these slots? I ask this as despite all belonging to Skyteam why would any airline want to give away a slot that can literally be worth millions? What is the financial gain to AF/KLM? If any of these airlines were to ever leave Skyteam then what happens with the slots? If say DL left Skyteam and had been using AF/KLM slots for its operation then what is it going to do about staying at LHR?
Did I not read somewhere that in exchange for AF/KLM giving the slots to DL/CO and NW for nil consideration that in return they would take a slice of the revenues made on the flights that each carrier flies to the US. Theres no way that AF/KLM are just doing this for nothing.
ChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1605 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2455 times:
Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 14): I not read somewhere that in exchange for AF/KLM giving the slots to DL/CO and NW for nil consideration that in return they would take a slice of the revenues made on the flights that each carrier flies to the US.
A slice of revenue would not be nil consideration. Am I misunderstanding?
Ejmmsu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1692 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2439 times:
Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 14): id I not read somewhere that in exchange for AF/KLM giving the slots to DL/CO and NW for nil consideration that in return they would take a slice of the revenues
NW and KL split revenues half and half on trans-atlantic flights, regardless of who operates the flight, and regardless of where the flight goes. NW flights to LHR shouldn't be any exception to that.
[Edited 2007-07-01 16:17:26]
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
UAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3355 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2283 times:
Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 16): NW and KL split revenues half and half on trans-atlantic flights, regardless of who operates the flight, and regardless of where the flight goes. NW flights to LHR shouldn't be any exception to that.
Thats what I mean, if say CO gets a slot from AF/KLM for nothing they will in fact pay for that slot long term by giving part of the revenues on their flights to them?
Humberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4901 posts, RR: 5 Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2151 times:
Dont think this is worth a separate thread, but some more LHR slot news/speculation from the Sunday Times today
AA has bought slots from Gulf Air (I guess these will be the Muscat slots, now Oman is no longer an owner of Gulf Air)
Luxair is seeking offers for its slots (it also serves LCY, so would still offer a London service)
BA has denied it has been in discussion with CSA Czech over a deal - Im not sure Skyteam would want CSA to sell to BA, when DL/CO will be looking for more slots than KL/AF can give/sell them
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1638 times:
DL and NW will certainly be at LHR on the first day of Open Skies which I believe is March 29, 2008. I would expect an announcement from them within a couple months at the latest.
You may have noticed that DL/NW/AF/KL filed an application for joint antitrust immunity which includes a joint venture between AF-DL to complement the existing NW-KL joint venture (revenue and profit sharing). It doesn't take too much to put the JV announcement and LHR/Open Skies together. Remember that AF/KL will be able to serve any market between the EU and the US and DL esp. already has a huge footprint that AF and KL can step into.
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