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Landings: Cathay Pacific Vs PIA  
User currently offlinePiaflyer From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2007, 150 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5533 times:

hi all i have a question for you,

i don't know if any of you have noticed but pia's landings are much more softer than Cathay pacific's. my friend has told that the reason was that pia is an airline that is in an hot area so that that means they have longer runways. since there are longer runways the pilots are taught to flare longer than other airlines due to the extra runway left. but cathay does not because maybe when they used to land at kai tak there main concern was to plant the aircraft into the ground, so that those teachings of planting aircraft into the ground has passed on. for instanc i have placed some vidoes for you. look at the first on which has cathay pacific and pia landing.

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra..._Airlines_Aviation_Video-8727.html

PIA
http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...nes_-_PIA_Aviation_Video-8358.html

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...nes_-_PIA_Aviation_Video-8337.html

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...nes_-_PIA_Aviation_Video-5415.html

Cathay Pacific
http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...y_Pacific_Aviation_Video-6421.html

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...y_Pacific_Aviation_Video-7777.html

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...y_Pacific_Aviation_Video-3118.html

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineExperimental From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 53 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5488 times:

Do you think the hardness of the landings in the videos you provided may have something to do with the fact that the CX examples were of cargo flights?

i.e. Most cargo doesn't mind how hard it hits the ground.


User currently offlineEGBJ From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 498 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5466 times:

Aren't most pilots trained by third party flight schools and then employed by individual airlines??

User currently offlinePapaNovember From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 473 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5425 times:

In the first video clip it looked like every airline's landing were softer than the CX examples. The examples for CX definitely look they were going for the 3 wire on an aircraft carrier!

Maybe it is cargo vs. passenger...


Phil...

p.s. The first landing of the MyTravel Airbus was impressive!


User currently offline9V-SPJ From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 752 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5420 times:

I don't know if you can make such a comparison. Operational issues can influence the type of landing. For example, an aircraft may be told to vacate the runway ASAP so they decide to avoid a long flare and just put the aircraft down soon. If there is water on the runway, a hard landing is better than hydroplaning (trying to acheive a soft landing). It also depends on pilot technique, which could be brought about due to training, but I think that most of it depends on operational issues. Wind also plays a role, for example, when landing in a thunderstorm, a sudden downdraft of wind could cause the aircraft to touchdown hard.
Overall, operational issues and pilot training would play a part in the 'hardness' of a landing.

9V-SPJ


User currently offlineKaiTakfan From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1588 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4507 times:

I think that your understanding of how airline pilots are trainined to land is abit off. Just because we have a longer runway than another, we dont say... oh lets just flare the hell out of it. We are trained soley on landing within the touch down zone, regardless of a 7,000 or 12,000 footer. But then again certain conditions at the field can exist where no matter how long or short the runway is, you get the weight on wheels ASAP due to winds, wet runways, etc...

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31011 posts, RR: 86
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4473 times:
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I suppose each airline has their own unique "company styles" of landing. When I used to fly AS and UA a good-deal in the 1990's, I noticed AS pilots tended to keep the power closer to the threshold so their approach speed was higher, but the landings were smoother.

Then again, they were often determined to make the second high-speed turn-off (N) when landing on 16C at SEA so it was usually a hard stab on the brakes as they entered the turn.

[Edited 2007-07-02 00:55:08]

User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 35
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4448 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
I noticed AS pilots tended to keep the power closer to the threshold so their approach speed was higher, but the landings were smoother.

Just a thought, but could this not have something to do with the type of aircraft? I've only flown on a MD80 once, just I can't really compare it to say the 737 or A320, but anyone who has flown an F28 will notice the power constantly being adjusted up until you're over the threshold.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlinePr1268 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4428 times:

Quoting Piaflyer (Thread starter):
http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra..._Airlines_Aviation_Video-8727.html

In the 1st video, the Zoom 763 pilots do a "Captain Kangaroo"-style landing, both on the mains and the nose gear!  Wink

Quoting PapaNovember (Reply 3):
The examples for CX definitely look they were going for the 3 wire on an aircraft carrier!

 checkmark 



The only time an aircraft has too much fuel is when it is on fire.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31011 posts, RR: 86
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4421 times:
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Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 7):
Just a thought, but could this not have something to do with the type of aircraft?

I noticed UA 733 and 735 pilots tended not to do it, while AS 734 pilots tended to, and all three planes are from the same family, so...


User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7642 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4410 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
I noticed UA 733 and 735 pilots tended not to do it, while AS 734 pilots tended to, and all three planes are from the same family, so...

OK, thanks for clearing that up for me. Like I said, it was just a thought.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7107 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4319 times:

I don't think it should be put down to certain airlines. Every pilot in every airline will have good and bad landings in terms of 'greasers and thumps'.

User currently offlineTrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4770 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4270 times:
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years ago before ABS was invented BA pilots were told to make firm landings to reduce skidding

User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4035 times:

hehe good old landings discussion, 5 knots makes a major difference on short runways....

the best way to land the plane, is the autoland style, trim up majorly at 300 feet, push the stick down to keep the attitude, and then when you're over the numbers, milk out the power and let the stick go, she literally lands herself with minimal elevator movement, this is the safest method to avoid a tailstrike



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineScooter01 From Norway, joined Nov 2006, 1204 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4023 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 12):
BA pilots were told to make firm landings to reduce skidding

There was a Trident that apparently twisted something in the nose-gear or forward fuselage on a hard crosswind landing at old OSL and had to fly empty back to England with the gear hanging out.
Anybody else heard of this?


Scooter



"We all have a girl and her name is nostalgia" - Hemingway
User currently offlineTruemanQLD From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 1548 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3997 times:

Valid point- if you had proper evidence of a CX flight with passengers

User currently offlineTrekster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3960 times:

That last PIA one looked good.

Do miss there 747's at MAN


User currently offlineSchooner From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3958 times:

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 13):
the best way to land the plane, is the autoland style, trim up majorly at 300 feet, push the stick down to keep the attitude, and then when you're over the numbers, milk out the power and let the stick go, she literally lands herself with minimal elevator movement, this is the safest method to avoid a tailstrike

You're kidding right? Thats a recipe to have a tailstrike. How do you know how much to trim before you flare? What if its too much? Had a little look at the Boeing FCTM for the 757 and Mr Boeing recommends that you:

" Begin with a stabilized approach on speed, in trim and on glidepath".

Think that they know better than you mate!

Cheers.



Untouched and Alive
User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3832 times:

CLK also has windshear issues, so maybe CX pilots like to go down harder than other pilots  Smile

User currently offlinePilotaydin From Turkey, joined Sep 2004, 2539 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3741 times:

Quoting Schooner (Reply 17):
You're kidding right? Thats a recipe to have a tailstrike. How do you know how much to trim before you flare? What if its too much? Had a little look at the Boeing FCTM for the 757 and Mr Boeing recommends that you:

" Begin with a stabilized approach on speed, in trim and on glidepath".

Think that they know better than you mate!

Cheers.

not kidding at all, when was the last time you looked through an autoland...an autoland starts trim bias around 350 feet, and it spins back quite a bit....during an autoland, the stick barely moves. What do you mean how much? how much of anything in aviation is a specific measurement...you always judge within reason as to what's needed, is there any book that can talk you through a crosswind landing? no, you just do what you need to do through experience and reflex and seat of your pants...
why are you making this personal? being a 757 FO you should be more professional, i never said i fly the airplane out of limits and i sure as hell never said i know better than boeing, this is why i barely post around here nowadays because someone always makes it personal.....copying and pasting what boeing wrote is not always the right answer, do you know how many times boeing updates their manuals because of new pilot input and problems cause during line flights....

trimming back 3-4 units and releasing the pressure on the yoke during a landing while retarding will not be a recipe for a tailstrike...if it were, autoland wouldnt use trim bias...



The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
User currently offlineSchooner From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3446 times:

Not making it personal fella, I just dont believe that is the best way to carry out the landing. If I am feeling brave I will give it a go tommorrow but if you hear of a tailstrike in FUE tommorrow I'm coming to get ya!
I understand that is the way the aircraft carries out an autoland but.....we arent't doing autolands! I believe the reason for the trim is incase there is a flare fault or in the event of a manual go-around from low level. My point is there are reasons there is some uptrim during an autoland but during a manual approach the aircraft should be in trim (you wont forget to flare will you  bouncy  ?).

Cheers.



Untouched and Alive
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9109 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3399 times:

Quoting Piaflyer (Thread starter):
my friend has told that the reason was that pia is an airline that is in an hot area so that that means they have longer runways.

You friend is wrong, both the runways at Hong Kong are 3800m long, which makes them longer than any runway in Pakistan that I know of used for civil ops. The longest runway in Lahore is 3360m, in Islamabad 3287 m, Karachi 3400m.

Quoting Piaflyer (Thread starter):
but cathay does not because maybe when they used to land at kai tak there main concern was to plant the aircraft into the ground, so that those teachings of planting aircraft into the ground has passed on.

Get with the times, Kia Tak has been closed for 9 years now, a lot of the guys form those days have moved on.

It is total B/S to state that any pilot it taught to plant aircraft on the runway at CX.

Quoting Piaflyer (Thread starter):
for instanc i have placed some vidoes for you. look at the first on which has cathay pacific and pia landing.

You are comparing CX CARGO flights being operated at MAXIMUM landing weights, and comparing them to passenger flights .....



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9109 posts, RR: 75
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3157 times:

from http://www.dawn.com/2007/07/10/top18.htm

Quote:
ISLAMABAD, July 9: A Pakistan International Airlines aircraft carrying 433 passengers made an emergency landing at Jeddah airport on Monday because of fire alarm, officials said.

The flight, PK-742, manned by 15 crew members, was coming to Islamabad when it developed a technical fault shortly after take-off.

Engineers said that the turbine of one of the engines disintegrated during the aircraft’s ascent, adding that it happened before the aircraft was hardly over 1,000 feet high. This caused a fire warning and the ‘bottles operated’.

“It was a rare incident,” an engineer said.

No one was injured in the incident, which caused panic among hundreds of passengers and the airport authorities, a source in the airline said.

All 16 tyres of the aircraft deflated on landing.

Nice one ....



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3070 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 22):

 rotfl  REAL SOFT.

Nicely put.


BA787


User currently offlineBoeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2980 times:

Quoting PapaNovember (Reply 3):
In the first video clip it looked like every airline's landing were softer than the CX examples.

except the Zoom 763 - tat was a bugger of a landing!


User currently offlineImiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2932 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 22):
from http://www.dawn.com/2007/07/10/top18.htm

Ha. If you think that was a band landing, check this one out!

http://www.historyofpia.com/acciphoto.htm


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