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ACTS-The New Walmart?  
User currently offlineReidYYZ From Kyrgyzstan, joined Sep 2005, 536 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2418 times:

With reference to: http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2007/06/22/aircanadaacts.html and: http://www.iamaw.ca/releases/2007/20..._04_12_AirCanada_farmingout_e.html I have to say that with a bunch of bean counters in charge, the acquisition of cheaper labour down south, decimating the Canadian heavy maintenance industry with massive layoffs, the quest to get said southern labour trained and certified with a Transport Canada license (although unsaid, that is indeed the intent), all on the Canadian taxpayer dime, really bothers me (read: annoys the ever loving shit out of me!!!) as a taxpayer and more so as a mechanic. Any thoughts?

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJamincan From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 776 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2379 times:

Pardon me, but what does this have to do with taxpayers?

User currently offlineRobsawatsky From Canada, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 597 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2325 times:

All I can say is that I expect ACTS and its employees to do better as an independent under the new owners rather than AC. Also, I too would like to know where the assumption that any taxpayers' $ are involved anywhere in this.

User currently offlineBaron52ta From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2287 times:

Quoting Robsawatsky (Reply 2):
I too would like to know where the assumption that any taxpayers' $ are involved anywhere in this.

http://www.iamaw.ca/releases/2007/20..._04_12_AirCanada_farmingout_e.html
Toronto, ON – “Air Canada Technical Services (ACTS) is attempting to strip the Canadian aviation maintenance industry and it’s seeking tax payers dollars to do it,” says IAMAW General Vice President Dave Ritchie.


User currently offlineAvt007 From Canada, joined Jul 2000, 2132 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2110 times:

Quoting Baron52ta (Reply 3):
seeking tax payers dollars to do it,"

As usual, the "facts" are being stretched to suit the unions viewpoint. The taxpayer connection seems pretty thin to me. Do you think a community college is going to do this for free for ACTS? ACTS will have to put up the cash if they want this done.


User currently offlineReidYYZ From Kyrgyzstan, joined Sep 2005, 536 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1879 times:

18 years ago when I went to Centennial College in Scarborough, the AMT course was 52 weeks, and cost me $1000.00 (no U.I. or manpower grants) for the whole course. We started with 120 students and graduated a class of 80. Simple math dictates that, with an average 100 students each paying the G note, comes out to $100,000.00 gross income. This paltry sum would not even cover two salaries for an estimated 8 instructors for the same course. Then there is the consumable materials provided to the students for required sheet metal and avionic shop projects. As well as the gas burned during third semester engine runs on the Beech 18 and Bell 206 birds. The shortfall is courtesy of the Government (Prov./Federal split unknown) subsidies that allow this type of education to be affordable. To adjust for inflation, this course would cost $1710.00 today (no, I do not have current amount as Cent. Coll. website does not have fees listed. Anyone care to share the current info?) versus an FAA full A&P course from these guys: http://www.nationalaviationacademy.c...viation_Maintenance_Curriculum.asp comes in at $24,500.00US for their 14 month course. This I got from someone on the phone as of 1400hrs today. I will acknowledge that to compare apples to oranges is not fair as with the A&P course you walk out with a licence, and probably at a better equipped facility. It does give an idea at the cost to run such a course. Is this all a stretch? In my opinion, not as much as some would believe.

It appears that my main point is the outsourcing of the heavy maintenance industry is shameful. If every large industry left in Canada or The U.S. for that matter, are allowed to leave because they can then there would be no place for middle class 'Joe Lunchpails' to get up every morning and go to work. If this were an elite CEO's only society where all would benefit, then great. It is not. We as a people have to understand that there are some jobs that should stay here. Am I ranting? Goddamn right I'm ranting. As cliche as it is, I worry about my kid's future. Those 867 lost jobs do not affect me, but it will affect my sons, should they get into Aircraft. I'm not going to rain on their parade, if they want to go this route, I will not discourage them. They may realize it is not for them on their own. My dad, after 30 of bricklaying, did not need to convince me with his classic "You get into construction, and I'll break your legs" motivational speech. I figured it on my own.

Rant-OFF
Regards, Reid

P.S. Bricklaying is an admirable career, but it was not for me. So, no offence to any brickies out there.


User currently offlineSkywatcher From Canada, joined Sep 2002, 468 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1845 times:

Doesn't the sale of ACTS open new, potentially rewarding opportunities?

Why wouldn't the mechanics welcome the opportunity to expand the business with new marketing and financing skills that are now available with the new private owners (they have proven how to be successful above all).
Less rigid labour practices and more focused resources can only help the workforce to become more efficient,productive and competitive than ever which should attract new business right?
Move the lower level work to the lower wage areas, lower your costs and attract more business (including more high level value added work) than ever sounds like a good idea to me.

Alternatively, resist the change, blame the "foreign workers" and "managment" for not becoming more competitive and ensure your demise at the hands of other organizations that evolve.

Adapt to the future realities or hang on to the mentality of the past (thousands of grievances, restrictive labour guidelines, overstaffing, strikes etc.)

I know which scenario I'd choose.


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1666 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1834 times:

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 5):



Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 5):
Those 867 lost jobs do not affect me, but it will affect my sons, should they get into Aircraft. I'm not going to rain on their parade, if they want to go this route, I will not discourage them

It wasn't AC work that was outsourced. It was Delta work that was lost because ACTS can't do it competitively and make money, especially with a 95-cent Canadian dollar. Your labor is just too expensive. You have to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.


User currently offlineAccargo From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 610 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1716 times:

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 5):
It appears that my main point is the outsourcing of the heavy maintenance industry is shameful. If every large industry left in Canada or The U.S. for that matter, are allowed to leave because they can then there would be no place for middle class 'Joe Lunchpails' to get up every morning and go to work. If this were an elite CEO's only society where all would benefit, then great. It is not. We as a people have to understand that there are some jobs that should stay here. Am I ranting? Goddamn right I'm ranting. As cliche as it is, I worry about my kid's future. Those 867 lost jobs do not affect me, but it will affect my sons, should they get into Aircraft. I'm not going to rain on their parade, if they want to go this route, I will not discourage them. They may realize it is not for them on their own. My dad, after 30 of bricklaying, did not need to convince me with his classic "You get into construction, and I'll break your legs" motivational speech. I figured it on my own.

Did you protest when Delta outsourced the work to AC? Out in YVR it was YeeHah the gravy train continues to roll.

Stop listening to all the union crap.They have no plan and no solutions. It wasn't long ago that a lot of you were railing against the IAM and trying to set up CAMA. Go and research what Onex did with the plant (Boeing parts?) in the states and how those folks made out great because they choose to be part of the solution. The chances are that your kids futures are likely to be better served by companies like KKR than unions like the IAM given the leadership (lack thereof) and dinosaur labour relations attitudes of the people in charge.


User currently offlineSpotter From Canada, joined Nov 2001, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1668 times:

Affected me, one to be bumped out of Toronto Line Maintenance. I am just hoping to stay with Aircraft Maintenance, as the motivation level for the industry just doesn't cut it for me anymore. Just hope I can get back to work ASAP, lets see what happens.
JR


User currently offlineRobsawatsky From Canada, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 597 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1635 times:

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 5):
18 years ago when I went to Centennial College in Scarborough, the AMT course was 52 weeks, and cost me $1000.00 (no U.I. or manpower grants) for the whole course. We started with 120 students and graduated a class of 80. Simple math dictates that, with an average 100 students each paying the G note, comes out to $100,000.00 gross income. This paltry sum would not even cover two salaries for an estimated 8 instructors for the same course. Then there is the consumable materials provided to the students for required sheet metal and avionic shop projects. As well as the gas burned during third semester engine runs on the Beech 18 and Bell 206 birds. The shortfall is courtesy of the Government (Prov./Federal split unknown) subsidies that allow this type of education to be affordable.

Foreign students do not pay the same tuition as residents. These students will not be trained in Canada anyway. The institutions will be paid a hefty sum to setup a training facility. The institutions won't receive tax dollars to do this. The tax dollars to establish these training programs is old money. No evidence anywhere of new $taxpayer going to help ACTS train foreign workers.

Typical political context-twisting and conflated propaganda.


User currently offlineYOW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1554 times:

Quoting Spotter (Reply 9):
Affected me, one to be bumped out of Toronto Line Maintenance. I am just hoping to stay with Aircraft Maintenance, as the motivation level for the industry just doesn't cut it for me anymore. Just hope I can get back to work ASAP, lets see what happens.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there lots of aviation companies out there that are begging for AMEs?


User currently offlineReidYYZ From Kyrgyzstan, joined Sep 2005, 536 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1379 times:

I can see my point of view is not shared. I am open minded enough to see that the tax payer issue is indeed a stretch. The circumstances on how the work went to YVR from DL is not fully known by me. Were there layoffs as a result, base closures or rampant base to base bumping? I do not know. Anyone with facts out there, I would like to know.

In saying that, any loss of permanent positions in such a small industry is not a good thing. Best of luck to you all in your respective industries, and I hope you are never affected by strategy to expand the business with new marketing and financing skills.

Regards,
Reid


User currently offlineIlikeyyc From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1373 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1296 times:

I just have a few things to add:

I work at our airline's heavy mx base here in the States. We do about half of the heavy mx in-house, and the rest is either done at a contractor in Arkansas, or Excel Tech in Montreal.

Several months ago we had a manager come into our hangar and give a presentation with fancy graphs showing how the contractors can do the same job as us but for half of the cost and that we, the mechanics, needed to do a better job of keeping costs down. That put the big scare in everyone as were were concerned about the future of the facility and our jobs. Well, several weeks later the manager was 'let-go" and we were then told that the real cost difference was only about 5%. So now we are adding another line of heavy mx to our hangar later this year, or early next year. My point is that you just can't trust the managers.

The unfortunate truth is that as A&P's or AMEs, we are in the business of Quality- and quality costs a company money. The managers and bean counters don't see or understand Quality, they only see Money and how it translates to the Stock Price.

Like it or not, this is Economic Darwinism and capitalism at work.



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