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Why Did B6/f9 Choose Airbus And WN Chose 737  
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9534 times:

I was just trying to figure out how low cost carriers choose between airbus and Boeing, like why did southwest choose the 737 while jetblue and frontier went with the A320

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9513 times:

Because it's what they liked best?

Because one or the other offered the best incentive?

Because in the case of WN, the A320 did not yet exist when the airline started?



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9454 times:

Actually, B6's original model called for 737s, but Boeing was hesitant to sell to them at anywhere near the price (relative to volume) that they wanted, due to a '90s-era philosophy of avoiding mass-exposure to startups.

Airbus stepped in with a sweetheart deal, plus support, plus co-marketing... and B6 never looked back.


User currently offlineObserver From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9413 times:

JetBlue was quoted in a long NY Times article as saying Boeing's arrogance at the time also played a role. Frontier was quoted in the same article with a similar complaint.

User currently offlineCruzinAltitude From United States of America, joined May 2004, 415 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9339 times:

Quoting Observer (Reply 3):
JetBlue was quoted in a long NY Times article as saying Boeing's arrogance at the time also played a role. Frontier was quoted in the same article with a similar complaint.

It would appear as if Boeing did a little bit of soul searching and moved more towards a customer focused sales strategy. Looking back you have to know it stings to see some many Airbus' with blue on the tail, and so many Airbus' with animals on the tail!


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9295 times:

In the case of WN, the 320 wasn't around when they were getting their 737 Classics, so that was the only option. Then when it came to the 737NGs, fleet commonality was a big thing, so that pretty much ruled the 320 (or 319 as it would have been) out.

Quoting CruzinAltitude (Reply 4):
It would appear as if Boeing did a little bit of soul searching and moved more towards a customer focused sales strategy.

They did indeed.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1359 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9233 times:

F9 originally chose 737s.

I thought it was due in part to lower acquisition costs (ie A319s cheaper than 737s - which kinds of goes with Boeing's arrogance if they weren't cutting deals for startups).

With the US dollar tanking, Boeing should be in the driver seat on some orders now.


User currently offlineLuvfa From United States of America, joined May 2005, 445 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9202 times:

Airtran however has gone the Boeing route with all their new deliveries are 737NGs.

For Jetblue it was a matter of economics. Their Airbus order lessened their start-up costs and they were a well funded airline to begin with.


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9121 times:

what about skybus and virgin America?

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21476 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9042 times:

Quoting ADent (Reply 6):
With the US dollar tanking, Boeing should be in the driver seat on some orders now.

This is the key reason. You can talk about arrogance all you want, but the dollar is at $1.35 to the euro or so right, but back then, the euro was much cheaper.

Combine that with Airbus offering very low pricing to grow their market share and Boeing being unable to produce enough planes after the failed ramp up that cost them billions, and F9 canceled their Boeing plans and went with Airbus.

I think the A320 is a better plane, but one reason the 737NG is selling so well right now is the dollar. Another reason is the backlog for A320s. But I think this confidence people have in the 737NG being able to compete forever is misplaced. The sooner Boeing can get the 797 to market, the better.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25013 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8976 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
Combine that with Airbus offering very low pricing to grow their market share and Boeing being unable to produce enough planes after the failed ramp up that cost them billions, and F9 canceled their Boeing plans and went with Airbus.

Sorry, not quite the case. What happened has been described by the then CEO, Sam Addoms.

Frontier had expected to be going with Boeing and had not even considered Airbus. However, Frontier was then a small start-up and Boeing showed no interest in a deal. They would certainly sell to Frontier, but only at a specific price, and with certain other conditions.

The price was rather more than Frontier had expected (or hoped?) to pay. So - after a lot of internal debate - they went to Airbus - who almost said "no".

Airbus said they had no interest in being used as leverage to get a better price (for Frontier) with Boeing. Frontier was able to persuade them of genuine interest and eventually a deal was done.

It was a good deal, but it wasn't an especially "low price" deal, as can be seen this week - that option prices negotiated with Airbus some while ago are rather more than Frontier thinks they should pay now.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4510 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8899 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
It was a good deal, but it wasn't an especially "low price" deal, as can be seen this week - that option prices negotiated with Airbus some while ago are rather more than Frontier thinks they should pay now.

As the Euro goes higher, I believe this will be the case in a lot of camps.


However, with the current orders of the A319/A320 and 737 lines, how much wiggle room is there for companies to get deliveries within the next 3 years? What the Euro/Dollar ratio is,. and what it will be , is always fluctuating.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3309 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8855 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
In the case of WN, the 320 wasn't around when they were getting their 737 Classics, so that was the only option.

What about the DC-9? Or did Douglas display the same attitude toward WN that Boeing displayed thirty years later to B6 and F9?

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 8):
what about skybus and virgin America?

I know that Skybus leased a few aircraft from Virgin America, so which aircraft were available to lease (and at what cost) seems to have influenced them.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
This is the key reason. You can talk about arrogance all you want, but the dollar is at $1.35 to the euro or so right, but back then, the euro was much cheaper.

Well, if you want to be nitpicky about it, the Euro never existed back then.  Silly


User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3524 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 8768 times:

Quoting Observer (Reply 3):
JetBlue was quoted in a long NY Times article as saying Boeing's arrogance at the time also played a role. Frontier was quoted in the same article with a similar complaint.

and Phil Condit was eventually outed...although not soon enough.



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24908 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8633 times:

Since B6's strategy was to offer a higher quality inflight product than the typical low-cost carrier, the wider Airbus cabin was probably also a consideration, permitting either wider seats or a wider aisle.

User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8568 times:

Quoting DL767captain (Thread starter):
why did southwest choose the 737 while jetblue and frontier went with the A320

Because in 1971 when Southwest started flying Airbus was a fledgeling company and did not even build the A320 for a another 15 years



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8482 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Since B6's strategy was to offer a higher quality inflight product than the typical low-cost carrier, the wider Airbus cabin was probably also a consideration, permitting either wider seats or a wider aisle.

Nah, if Boeing had actually pursued the sale, B6 would be flying 737s. The cabin width is a nice PR perk for Airbus, but economics still drive the deals.

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 12):
What about the DC-9? Or did Douglas display the same attitude toward WN that Boeing displayed thirty years later to B6 and F9?

Southwest started off with the 732. As for why they did that as opposed to the DC-9, I don't know. But after that, the advantages of staying with the 737 were enormous.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3347 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8430 times:

Quoting Observer (Reply 3):
JetBlue was quoted in a long NY Times article as saying Boeing's arrogance at the time also played a role. Frontier was quoted in the same article with a similar complaint.

I think I remember (not sure) this also happening during Spirit's purchase.

Quoting Luvfa (Reply 7):
Airtran however has gone the Boeing route with all their new deliveries are 737NGs.

ValuJet placed orders for MD-95s. After flight 592 and the AirTran takeover, the new company "inherited" the MD-95 orders, which later became Boeing 717s. Then the B737 order was probably not hard for Boeing to get after FL's luck with the B717s.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Since B6's strategy was to offer a higher quality inflight product than the typical low-cost carrier, the wider Airbus cabin was probably also a consideration, permitting either wider seats or a wider aisle.

How many customers would book on the basis of aircraft type operating the flight. Probably about 2% outside of airliners.net.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8345 times:

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 17):
How many customers would book on the basis of aircraft type operating the flight. Probably about 2% outside of airliners.net.

An NW station manager once told me that they were losing a fair amount of business traffic because of the pretty crappy WBC product on the DC-10s, as well as their reliability issues. The 330s fixed that, of course, but many of the higher-paying passengers do know what they're flying, and choose accordingly.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAsuflyer05 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2371 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8280 times:

Some insight from Mr. Neeleman:

Quote:
"He [David Neeleman] had initial discussions with Boeing and Airbus. Then JetBlue negotiators told Boeing that it needed to come up with a better offer. Instead, Boeing tried to convince JetBlue to change the size of the airplane it was ordering. Ultimately, Neeleman decided to do business with Airbus on account of its superior offer and willingness to build the planes according to the specifications JetBlue wanted. Neeleman consummated the deal with a handshake. Then Neeleman telephoned Boeing to inform them.

'As soon as I called Boeing to tell them the deal was done,' Neeleman said, 'they wanted to reopen the deal. They wanted to give us the planes for the price we wanted.'

Neeleman reminded Boeing that he had told them the rules upfront. Boeing negotiators said they didn't know Neeleman was serious and as a result they had not given him their best and final offer. Boeing wanted a chance to submit a better offer...Boeing countered that it could save JetBlue millions of dollars if Neeleman simply would allow them to submit a counteroffer.

'No thank you,' Neeleman replied."

Benedict, Jeff. The Mormon Way of Doing Business: Leadership and Success, Through Faith and Family, 79-80. January 2007. Warner Business Books, New York.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25013 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8249 times:
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Quoting Aa757first (Reply 17):
I think I remember (not sure) this also happening during Spirit's purchase.

Good memory. This thread disucsses it in some detail:

RE: Spirit's Aircraft Order Was Boeing's To Lose (by Greg Mar 31 2004 in Civil Aviation)

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8136 times:
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Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
Quoting Aa757first (Reply 17):
How many customers would book on the basis of aircraft type operating the flight. Probably about 2% outside of airliners.net.

An NW station manager once told me that they were losing a fair amount of business traffic because of the pretty crappy WBC product on the DC-10s, as well as their reliability issues. The 330s fixed that, of course, but many of the higher-paying passengers do know what they're flying, and choose accordingly.

I agree with you completely. I have many friends who fly in the P/F, J/C and the great majority have told me they do pay attention to the type of a/c they fly on. In fact for some, it determines which airline they fly on-i.e., All my friends who fly J/C to LHR prefer BA over VS as they don't like flying on the 346 though some do like their Upper Class 'suites" more than the cabin offerings on BA. I only have one other friend who's very a/c knowledgeable and is a memeber here on a.net. Consequently, I feel a great number of people who fly premium do their research, not just based on cost and service but the equipment utilized on the routes they are flying on.

Did AS ever consider going with 32Xs prior to buying 73Gs?

LACA773


User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8112 times:
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When both US & HP decided to go with 32Xs, was this during the time the Boeing sales staff were walking, talking, and carrying around an arrogant philosophy? I find this topic very interesting as both US [much larger 73X fleet] & HP had sizeable 73X fleets then switched over to the 32Xs?

I'm also wondering about MX doing the same now as they too were a very large and loyal Boeing customer for years. For MX I thought the performance of the 73GXs was much better than the 32Xs especially with so many of their flights begining and terminating in MEX?

LACA773


User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3347 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8100 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 18):
An NW station manager once told me that they were losing a fair amount of business traffic because of the pretty crappy WBC product on the DC-10s, as well as their reliability issues. The 330s fixed that, of course, but many of the higher-paying passengers do know what they're flying, and choose accordingly.

You're comparing elite, WBC fliers to people deciding between flying AirTran, Southwest or jetBlue to FLL. PTVs and leather seats might be a deciding factor, the fact that the flight is going to be on a A320 is probably not going to be. Of course, price is what is most important to the majority of leisure consumers.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 20):
Good memory. This thread disucsses it in some detail:

RE: Spirit's Aircraft Order Was Boeing's To Lose (by Greg Mar 31 2004 in Civil Aviation)

Thanks for finding that thread. I didn't realize things went that badly.


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 8096 times:

Shortly speaking:

Southwest did not have much choice other than DC-9. So they went 737.

Jetblue and Frontier - as mentioned above, at those times Boeing sales force was very arrogant so when Airbus offered superior aircraft at a good price, the went with it.


25 N1120A : Given that the cabin width makes absolutely no difference in comfort levels, it really isn't much of a "perk". If anything, jetBlue must be looking b
26 Dutchjet : Dont forget that US-East and Boeing were not on the best of terms after a US 733 crashed. As for America West, they were a very early operator of the
27 EI321 : There are tons of variables being discussed in this thread. But I think JBo sumarised it well at the beginning: These are very important factors IMO,
28 Post contains links BNE : Southwest originally looked at props instead of jets for their initial services between HOU-DAL-SAT; which are only about 250 miles apart. Boeing offe
29 Keesje : I think both took the best available aircraft.
30 0NEWAIR0 : Very True. The Ryan Air A320s to the West Coast and the Miami Air 737-800s were not run just because those were the only aircraft available. They wer
31 We're Nuts : This thread is ridiculous. How many A320's were flying in 1971?
32 Post contains images 747fan : Very good point; there weren't even any A300's flying around yet!
33 EXAAUADL : There was no Airbus commercia laircraft in 1971. The choice for WN was the 737 or DC-9.
34 Pr1268 : NZ felt compelled to replace their DC-10s with 747s in the early 1980s after public perception of the safety and reliability of the DC-10 soured horr
35 Post contains images PHLBOS : Beat me to the punch. IIRC, FL's negative experience w/the wet-leased Ryan International (not to be confused w/RyanAir) A320s (truth be told, it was
36 EXAAUADL : I think it was Electras cuz that is what Air Florida was flying...I think WN at foirst had 4 737-200s but one was returned, that is whwn the 15 minut
37 Antonovman : It makes a hell of a difference. Ask any passenger who has flown on both
38 LY4XELD : Not as long as there are more out there with "Southwest" on the tail.
39 Post contains images PennPal : Question: If the Airbus product is so "superior", why did jetBlue, Frontier, and Spirit all initially prefer the 737???
40 PHLBOS : The Electra indeed was the plane that Herb had in mind for (originally called Air Southwest). In the Airways Classics Tribute to WN; it shows a color
41 NWA742 : Of course you'd think that - simply because we're talking about an Airbus order over a Boeing order. The fact is, incentives had everything to do wit
42 Post contains images Runga08 : Who would've thought that even though Airbus almost said no, F9 turned out to be the launch customer for the A318. Quite funny...
43 Irobertson : And I find it interesting that two of these airlines (JetBlue and Frontier plus a hell of a lot of the legacy carriers) are now turning to Embraer fo
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