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US Carriers In Greece  
User currently offlineSergioAEE From Greece, joined Jun 2006, 45 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

Hello to all,

Seeing that this summer more American carriers came into ATH, I began to ask myself why this has begun so late. USairways and Continental only just started flying to ATH. Im pretty sure that demand from Grecce to the US is big and vice-versa. I know alot of Americans like to visit Greece for holidays and there is a large business travel segment and VFR travel segment between the US and Greece. What was stopping the US carriers from flying to ATH in previous years and what do you guys think the following years will look like for this market (US-Greece)?

SergioAEE

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5700 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4538 times:

I think it was partly politics, and before the new airport, security reasons.

Not to mention Homeric Tours in NYC having JFK-ATH charters with MD-11's, 747-100/-200's, L-1011's, 767-300ER's and whatnot until their recent purchase (and outright sell-back) of 2 A330-200's. Who would want to fly a Trans-Atlantic hop with THAT much capacity andnot enough butts to fill all of it?



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4526 times:

One of the contributing factors was the old Athens airport . . . unsecure and dangerous. Many times I'd see signas at US Airports - the typical warning signs of airports that dfon't meet miniumum security requirements and ATH was on them

Quoting SergioAEE (Thread starter):
What was stopping the US carriers from flying to ATH in previous years

I do believe Pan AM and TWA both served Athens . . . .


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8683 posts, RR: 16
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4508 times:

US serves it now with 762 eqipt, hoping to go A332 when they get delivered.

MCOflyer



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5700 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4438 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 3):
US serves it now with 762 eqipt, hoping to go A332 when they get delivered.

I cant WAIT for that!!



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25700 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4382 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
Quoting SergioAEE (Thread starter):
What was stopping the US carriers from flying to ATH in previous years

I do believe Pan AM and TWA both served Athens . . . .

Correct, especially TWA. They served ATH for several decades. Pan Am's service was briefer and as I recall they only served ATH from their FRA hub. TW operated nonstop JFK-ATH for many years, as well as serving ATH from other points in Europe and TLV.


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ATH was also the point of origin of one of the most well-known hijackings, TWA 847, a B727-200 in June 1985. The ordeal lasted 17 days. Related Time magazine article:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,959466,00.html

It was this aircraft, which coincidentally also appeared in TW's final livery:


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User currently offlineKLMA330 From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 697 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4348 times:

My uncle and cousins just flew to Athens on USAir. Not a very pleasant flight, super long, and dingy plane, or at least, this was their discription, and being that they tried it first hand, I believe them.
Billy.


User currently offlineTUNisia From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1844 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4333 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
Correct, especially TWA. They served ATH for several decades. Pan Am's service was briefer and as I recall they only served ATH from their FRA hub. TW operated nonstop JFK-ATH for many years, as well as serving ATH from other points in Europe and TLV.

Ya, TWA served FCO and CAI from ATH as well (back when they had 727s in Europe). I really miss them  Sad



Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
User currently offlineTUNisia From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1844 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4329 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
ATH was also the point of origin of one of the most well-known hijackings, TWA 847, a B727-200 in June 1985. The ordeal lasted 17 days. Related Time magazine article:

Oh !! Also ... the 727 involved in TWA 847 was the LAST 727 in service for TWA. I think it's last flight was MSY-STL. Supposedly their were still bullet holes visible in the cabin which had been patched up. I think there's a YouTube vid of the last flight.. if I can find it i'll make a post.



Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
User currently offlineCY319 From Cyprus, joined Apr 2006, 396 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4246 times:

Also, UA served ATH for a while with 727s from CDG as far as i remember. Or it might have been from FRA.

Apart from the direct services nowadays, there is still lots of connecting traffic mostly with BA,LH,KL,AZ.
I work at LHR and the 1st BA morning flight to ATH (BA 640) has at least 50% transfer passengers from the US.



wanna be travel buddies ,sex buddies .. or both ?
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5315 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4222 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
Correct, especially TWA. They served ATH for several decades. Pan Am's service was briefer and as I recall they only served ATH from their FRA hub.

Correct! TW flew to ATH for roughly 50 years before suspending service in either 1997 or 1998 (can't remember which). PA only began flying to ATH in 1985 and, as you mentioned only from FRA, so their stint in ATH was indeed far shorter than TW's.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineTrijetsRMissed From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2385 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4204 times:

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 8):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
ATH was also the point of origin of one of the most well-known hijackings, TWA 847, a B727-200 in June 1985. The ordeal lasted 17 days. Related Time magazine article:

Oh !! Also ... the 727 involved in TWA 847 was the LAST 727 in service for TWA. I think it's last flight was MSY-STL. Supposedly their were still bullet holes visible in the cabin which had been patched up.

That would have been a bit eerie to have been on that plane knowing the history of what happened with the hijacking.. ATH was also the point of origin for the last successful flight of the 747 that was involved in the TW 800 crash.



There's nothing quite like a trijet.
User currently offlineFr8Mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5524 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4176 times:

Oh the memories. We used to summer in a neighborhood that was just east of the airport. TWA, PanAM, Luftansa, Altalia and the charter jumbos. They always looked like they were going to go off the end.

I blame my view of that airport for my passion in aviation.

The new airport is 30 or so minutes from my old stomping grounds. Pity.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27176 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4117 times:

I used to fly DL on their A310 from LGW-FRA-ATH. Was a good service. I remember seeing TWA all the time. When it came to take off the police cleared the road behind the runway . Partly for security and partly so you didnt get blown away. It was great to be that close to a 747 when the engines started.

Quoting KLMA330 (Reply 6):
My uncle and cousins just flew to Athens on USAir. Not a very pleasant flight, super long, and dingy plane, or at least, this was their discription, and being that they tried it first hand, I believe them.

I believe them also. US Airways are not good and Ive only ever flown with them in their Envoy class. Was terrible.


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5700 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4090 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 13):
I believe them also. US Airways are not good and Ive only ever flown with them in their Envoy class. Was terrible.

Ive only flown in their A330's across the pond in Envoy, and the service wasnt shabby, but definately not up to par with say CO or BA or such...



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineVHXLR8 From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 500 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4074 times:

Quoting SergioAEE (Thread starter):
and VFR travel segment between the US and Greece

It's also worth remembering that VFR travel, whilst filling seats, is generally very low yeilding; therefore not a profit spinner for the airlines.
A classic example of this (relating to ATH) is Australia-Greece. Melbourne is home to the world's largest Greek population outside Greece; as such, huge numbers of passengers fly between MEL and ATH. However, QF pulled off the route many years ago, and OA did the same quite recently (even after being offered subsidies by the Victorian Government). It's one thing to get people onto flights, but if the premium fares aren't there, there's really not much in it for the airline, particularly on a long international route with high overheads.


User currently offlineSergioAEE From Greece, joined Jun 2006, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4027 times:

CO, US and DL come to Athens with VERY high load factors! I work at ATH and its almost everyday that these flight request the longer runway due to weight and also depending on the temperature, sometimes they even request de-fueling before departure and fly to another destination, and refuel there. On the other hand OA does not have good load factors. They somtimes depart ATH with 120 pax on an A343...... This is where my question began. Its surprising that the 3 American carriers have incredible load factors.

SergioAEE


User currently offlineEgmcman From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 898 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4027 times:

DL serves ATH from JFK 763's DL132/3 daily

User currently offlineSergioAEE From Greece, joined Jun 2006, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3999 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 3):
One of the contributing factors was the old Athens airport . . . unsecure and dangerous. Many times I'd see signas at US Airports - the typical warning signs of airports that dfon't meet miniumum security requirements and ATH was on them

However the one now, is amongst the safest in the world  Smile

SergioAEE


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27176 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3901 times:

Quoting SergioAEE (Reply 18):
However the one now, is amongst the safest in the world

From one extreme to the other LOL....


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8657 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3844 times:

Quoting SergioAEE (Reply 16):
CO, US and DL come to Athens with VERY high load factors! I work at ATH and its almost everyday that these flight request the longer runway due to weight and also depending on the temperature, sometimes they even request de-fueling before departure and fly to another destination, and refuel there. On the other hand OA does not have good load factors. They somtimes depart ATH with 120 pax on an A343...... This is where my question began. Its surprising that the 3 American carriers have incredible load factors.

Yes. The American carriers have generally 1-stop transportation, using CO or US, and even in the case of DL at JFK.

CO at EWR and US at PHL connect cities across the USA straight to Athens. It is hard to duplicate their strength unless OA codeshares with DL (unlikely) or JetBlue. Does OA codeshare with anybody now? Even so, it will be hard for OA to offer door-to-door service as fast as the USA hub carriers when going to Seattle, Chicago, Houston etc.

ATH-USA is a very long flight for the 767-200ER. They may need the long runway, whereas the A340 may take off faster..?..

ATH has faster access to American cities now, thanks to US and CO. Also, DL is very strong in New York these days. This probably explains the majority of the success you are seeing. At least it is good for ATH to bring more tourists in!


User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2733 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3799 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
Pan Am's service was briefer and as I recall they only served ATH from their FRA hub.

That is correct. I flew FRA - ATH on June 8, 1991 on PanAm Flight 60.


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5315 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3773 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
ATH has faster access to American cities now, thanks to US and CO. Also, DL is very strong in New York these days. This probably explains the majority of the success you are seeing. At least it is good for ATH to bring more tourists in!

Don't forget that DL also serves ATH from ATL during high season which opens up more connecting opportunities for passengers than either CO's EWR hub or US's PHL hub.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5700 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3763 times:

Quoting VHXLR8 (Reply 15):
A classic example of this (relating to ATH) is Australia-Greece.

Not to mention NYC-ATH, but on this route at least, there is a bit of high yield traffic.

Quoting SergioAEE (Reply 16):
Its surprising that the 3 American carriers have incredible load factors.

Its not surprising when you factor in all the connecting cities (using CO as an example) from not just EWR nonstops but also the people (such as myself) who usually have to connect in IAH before getting to EWR. Considering that factor, the map opens up even more so.


Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
ATH-USA is a very long flight for the 767-200ER. They may need the long runway, whereas the A340 may take off faster..?..

Not really, TWA used to do a mix of 747-100/-200, 747SP, 767-200/-300's to ATH in its lifetime, as well as 707's, now THOSE would be long flights!

OA's A340's in particular (at least in JFK and in ATH) are seeming to be really underpowered as they take up MUCH more runway that 767's, 777's and the like.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 22):
Don't forget that DL also serves ATH from ATL during high season which opens up more connecting opportunities for passengers than either CO's EWR hub or US's PHL hub.

Especially in the South, but as I stated above, factor in a two or more hub transfer, and the map opens up considerably.



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineTurkishWings From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1450 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3727 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 2):
One of the contributing factors was the old Athens airport . . . unsecure and dangerous. Many times I'd see signas at US Airports - the typical warning signs of airports that dfon't meet miniumum security requirements and ATH was on them

Tell me about it... When I was a cabin crew with TK ages ago, we had to sit down for the last 10-15 minutes of a roughly 55 minute flight. Deduct 5 mins after take off and we had just over half an hour to serve 150 pax  Yeah sure (Cold meal plus drinks and tea/coffee). On one of those flights, I remember distributing hot towels after service because there was a control purser (or however they are called) on board  Wink

The new airport is much nicer by the way... I remember sitting in a cafe next to Olympiakos football players.. Heaven Big grin



Coffee - Tea or Me?
25 Flighty : Forgot about that, sorry. You're right. So, it is relatively new that all Americans have easy access to ATH on a number of airlines. This will increa
26 Post contains links PHLwok : As someone with >1 million miles on US, I completely agree. The 767 fleet has had only minor cabin (seat) upgrades, and if they intend to keep them b
27 ElVen : Is Just a personal preference but i feel much more confortable flying with an Olympic Airlines A343 than on an aging B762/763. The flight is about 10
28 OA260 : I have flown alot of times on nearly all the US carriers. I have to say United is my favourite. At the moment though I will always fly OA JFK to ATH
29 WesternA318 : LOL< UA would be crazy to put a 777 on most likely an IAD-ATH run...it would proably be along the lines of the 763 or so..
30 OA260 : I guess I can dream lol.....
31 Post contains links COGlobeTrotter : I believe the incentives given by Athens airport is what lead US & CO to start flights there. DL has had service to ATH for a long time, so it was pro
32 OA260 : I can understand security issues at the old ATH airport for US carriers but it never applied to other carriers in those days. The new ATH airport is
33 Post contains images Tpaewr : Not all 762s are aging, in fact some out there are younger than some A343s. In fact I bet one of these "youngsters" is gonna being visiting ATH today
34 RJpieces : I remember hearing how bad security was at ATH when I was a kid. Could somebody explain the story behind this--what exactly was so lacking in ATH sec
35 Post contains images OA260 : Haha well put it this way when I used to fly UM (years ago ) I was escorted from the plane into the baggage hall and as soon as my Aunt would see me
36 WesternA318 : Same would happen to me when my cousins came to pick me up, once they made it onto the bus all the way out to the TWA 747 that brought me in!
37 Post contains links and images 747fan : [quote=OA260,reply=28]If you book early OA have some very good fares and the food and PTV's are better than on the other carriers on the USA to Greece
38 Post contains images OA260 : No way haha that is just so funny !!!! '' Mono tin Ellada''!!!! ''only in Greece'' Dont you just miss those days though !!!! Its all to PC these days
39 OA412 : DL has been serving ATH now for 16 years ever since it purchased PA's Europe routes. Initially all services were from FRA but JFK has actually been s
40 747fan : Oh, thanks for the correction. I do think ATL-ATH is relatively new, but correct me if I'm wrong.
41 Post contains images ANITIX87 : Yep. For many years. I flew TWA to ATH so many times I did it on four different aircraft types! Which I was on. Kind of frightening. N93119. Sometime
42 Panamair : Yes, ATL-ATH started last summer (2006).
43 OA412 : JFK-ATH was flown 10 x weekly during IIRC August the last few years but is only being flown daily this year along with the daily ATL-ATH rotation.
44 WesternA318 : ATL-ATH has been served off and on since about 1995/1996 with MD-11's and more recently 763's, while as noted above, nonstop service has been operate
45 Post contains images PHLapproach : Well ATH has been a powerhouse thus far. So it wouldn't surprise me for it to get an upgrade when they get here
46 Post contains images SergioAEE : Just for info, the DL flight from JFK is LAX-JFK-ATH Its different from last summer I guess SergioAEE
47 Panamair : They do this only for marketing purposes...the domestic portion is on a different airplane (757-200) with a different level of service. Also, if the
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