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VS Aims To Order More 787s, Eyes 747 Replacement  
User currently offlineSFORunner From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 325 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 9555 times:

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...OWJONESDJONLINE000255_FORTUNE5.htm

July 08, 2007: 06:42 AM EST
LONDON -(Dow Jones)- U.K.-based Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. plans to order another eight Boeing Co. (BA) 787 airplanes before the end of this year, Paul Charles, a spokesman for the long-haul carrier said Sunday.

<...>

Virgin Atlantic has also sent requests for information to both Boeing and rival Airbus regarding the eventual replacement of the airline's 13 Boeing 747- 400 jets, Charles said. While an order is still years away, Virgin will look at Boeing's 747-8 as well as Airbus' A350 XWB and double-decker A380s, he said.


18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 60
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9388 times:

but I thought they already bought the A380, really wanted it, and deferred it because aliens made them.

the reality is VS looks to have determined the A380 might be too big for them...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9246 times:

"but I thought they already bought the A380,"

Exactly what I was thinking. It appears that maybe they're having second thoughts about it. It would be cool to see the 748I in VS colors and would work nicely next to the 787s they've got. If VS decides to go with GEnx for their 787s, then that could help in maintenance costs and commonality..??  eyebrow 



We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 9122 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
but I thought they already bought the A380, really wanted it, and deferred it because aliens made them.

the reality is VS looks to have determined the A380 might be too big for them...

..one could potentially see them ordering B748I's and then using the A380 deposits to order the larger variants of the A350......such as the A35X



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 60
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8973 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
..one could potentially see them ordering B748I's and then using the A380 deposits to order the larger variants of the A350......such as the A35X

or just getting their money back because I doubt that they gave up their right to a refund with the deferments. SRB is too smart to do something like that...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineLokey123 From Barbados, joined May 2006, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8934 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
using the A380 deposits to order the larger variants of the A350......such as the A35X

How about A320s  Wink


User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7379 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8934 times:
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Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
thought they already bought the A380

They certainly did not order 13 of them! Previous comments from VS suggest they intend taking those already on order; perhaps we could see either 7 748I or A380 being ordered?


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8862 times:

Is the A380 no longer part of VIrgins future plans? Or were the A380s not intended as 744 replacements...who knows, its a very odd statement.

One would think that the A380 would be an important part of Virgin's future for a few reasons>

1. BA has not ordered it, and Virgin would love to have a bigger airplane than BA (size does matter).

2. The A380 should fit into Virgin's new ""green eco-friendly'" image....as you may know: Four engines for long haul is out and Green is in.

3. Slots at LHR are only going to become more expensive.....the A380 could make a lot of sense on high demand routes.

4. And, BA has not ordered it.

5. Oh, and BA has not ordered it.





 Smile  Smile


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8744 times:

Quoting Lokey123 (Reply 5):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
using the A380 deposits to order the larger variants of the A350......such as the A35X

How about A320s  Wink

..a bit too small for them..... Wink



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8680 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 7):
One would think that the A380 would be an important part of Virgin's future for a few reasons>

all those factors work for the 748, too.

For VS, a 2+ class carrier, the 748 is still a big plane. The A380 is huge. They may realize that for them (not the world, just for VS) that having a small number of A380s doesn't give them flexibility, and forces them to sell a LOT of seats on days when it's not as easy to sell such seats...



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 8648 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
all those factors work for the 748, too.

Agreed.........but as you correctly pointed out:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
but I thought they already bought the A380, really wanted it, and deferred it because aliens made them.

Its hard too tell what the real story is here, or if there is any real news to be told.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
the reality is VS looks to have determined the A380 might be too big for them...

Hard to believe; flying in and out of slot controlled Heathrow to slot controlled airports in Japan and to high demand destinations in Asia where the is a very limited departure/arrival time ""window"" are a few of the missions where the A380 actually makes a lot of sense.


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8348 times:

personally i believe 2 things, the A380 is not a 744 replacement, the 748i would be a perfect 744 replacement for VS. Also VS is mostly a 2 class plane so an A380 would be pretty massive for them. I can see VS ordering the 748i to go along with the 787's and maybe using the A380 money to go towards the A350-1000 to replace the A340's. I think airlines (some of them) are realizing that the A380 is just a little too big for them unless they will fly the same amount of passengers as the 748i and use the extra space for more room for the passengers (i would like to see that but i doubt it would happen). It is airlines like Emirates that need a massive plane like the A380, i think VS would do much better with a mix of 748i's and maybe some of the larger A350's or just 748's

User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8031 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
the reality is VS looks to have determined the A380 might be too big for them...

Hard to believe; flying in and out of slot controlled Heathrow to slot controlled airports in Japan and to high demand destinations in Asia where the is a very limited departure/arrival time ""window"" are a few of the missions where the A380 actually makes a lot of sense.

.....the "slot" arguments have been discussed quite a few number of times...but that really doesn't address why carriers such as JL and NH will eventually downguage from the B744 to the B773ER to LHR.....i

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 11):
Also VS is mostly a 2 class plane

...technically a "3"-class carrier..but I do see your point as VS being a "2-class" carrier.. Smile



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2379 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7825 times:

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 11):
the A380 is not a 744 replacement

Very very true. However, there are certain 747 routes in the Virgin network that could use more capacity with the same frequency. These 747s could be "replaced" by the A380.

Also, I see the lower demand 747 routes simply being replaced by A340-600s, and lower A340-600 routes replaced with 787s. No need for A350 or 747-8.

Regarding LHR slots, the 3rd runway is close to becoming a reality. The 3rd runway will come on line by the time VS wants to replace its 747s, and when the 3rd runway does come, I am sure BA and VS would receive the vast majority of slots. It doesn't even make sense for Virgin Atlantic to order 787s if this isn't true.


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4786 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7750 times:

I honestly dont think that VS will be cancelling their order for A 380s as they have deposits with Airbus plus negiotiated a compensation package for them for late deliveries and then decided that they would like others to test the plane before it receives it at an amended later date of 2013.

Now I feel the reason for this move on VS's part is not only to see how this aircraft performs on core trans-atlantic, SYD, Far East Asian routes but also financial. VS may not be in the top notch financial shape to make further payments to Airbus at this moment in time for the A 380s it has on order therefore delaying its delivery slot allows it to reassess its financial capabilities / budget / spending etc.

Another reason why I feel VS will not cancel the A 380 is because it needs the extra cabin space avbl on board this giant aircraft to offer an ultra luxurious Upper Class product to its high yielding passengers. Yes VS maybe an airline not offering First Class but it can easily fit 460-500 pax in an A 380 by having more Upper Class (and Premium Economy) seats on board to compensate for it and use this aircraft wisely on routes that warrant the high number of Upper Class seats being made avbl such as JFK, LAX, SFO, HKG, NRT, China etc.

VS also needs the A 380 because its main competitors i.e. TG, EK, QR, EY, LH & AF will be using this aircraft to gain a competitive edge against it on key routes to SYD, HKG, NRT, China, India etc where VS flies to. Mr Branson is an upscale, high maintainence man and he knows what form of luxury to provide on board his flagship A 380s to woo customers away from the competition on to his planes.

I wouldnt suggest to VS to order the B 748 nor the A 350s...I would recommend their future fleet to consist of :

A 380 : 480 passengers
B 787-100 : 300 passengers
B 789 : 240 passengers

In this way, the A 380 can be used on high density long haul routes, the B 781 can be used on medium density long haul as well as ultra-long haul routes and the B 789 can be used to open new routes as well as fly on routes that see medium density demand consistently year round from LHR.

Also by having a fleet consisting of only 2 plane types, costs of maintainence and other engineering / cabin crew-pilot training aspects of it gets reduced big time compared to other people's suggestions having a fleet consisting of :

A 380s
B 748s (to replace the B 744s)
A 350-100X (to replace the A 346s)
B 789s (to replace the A 343s)

4 DIFFERENT TYPES OF PLANES...goodness gracious!!!


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5585 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):

.....the "slot" arguments have been discussed quite a few number of times...but that really doesn't address why carriers such as JL and NH will eventually downguage from the B744 to the B773ER to LHR.....i

You are right, it doesn't......I can only assume that JAL and ANA down gauged their London services to (1) increase yields on the route by reducing the number of Y seats offered and/or (2) offer their most advanced premium products and most advanced airliner on this rather business oriented high fare route.

I really do think that slot limitations and limited departure/arrival windows on routes from London to Asia make one of the strongest cases for the A380........its one of the few markets where frequency is not the answer and a case where flying two 773ERs instead of one A380 to a destination makes little sense.

In any case, it will be interesting to see what Virgin actually does, and how the London-Asia routes, which have been dominated by the 747 for years and years, evolve as new types become available.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5240 times:

I was excoriated here for pointing out the obvious when VS deferred their WhaleJet orders the second time. The evidence mounts.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
its one of the few markets where frequency is not the answer and a case where flying two 773ERs instead of one A380 to a destination makes little sense.

That's a strawman argument. Flying two 787s rather than one WhaleJet nearly always makes sense.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7064 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5169 times:

VS in 2015:
A380
747-8
A350-100
787-9
Wouldn' t that be the perfect fleet
 Smile



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4581 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):

.....the "slot" arguments have been discussed quite a few number of times...but that really doesn't address why carriers such as JL and NH will eventually downguage from the B744 to the B773ER to LHR.....i

You are right, it doesn't......I can only assume that JAL and ANA down gauged their London services to (1) increase yields on the route by reducing the number of Y seats offered and/or (2) offer their most advanced premium products and most advanced airliner on this rather business oriented high fare route.

 checkmark ...better yields, profit margins,etc....



"Up the Irons!"
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