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Does The Changing Of Deltas Livery Make Sense?  
User currently offlineB6ramprat From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 64 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4601 times:

Okay this not a hater e mail about Delta so lets get that out on the table. My question is Does it make sense to spend all this money on changing the livery of Deltas planes. There are so many liveries of them and to be honest, they are all good. Why not save your money and spend it else where? God knows it could be used for better use. What was wrong with what there planes looked like? Of course now they gotta change all those Song planes but for the mainline fleet and regional why the need? Its gotta cost bucks to paint these planes and well Delta doesn't really seem to have the money right now. I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks

B6ramprat


Racecar spelled backwards spells Racecar
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3305 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4586 times:
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Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
My question is Does it make sense to spend all this money on changing the livery of Deltas planes.

Here's your answer...

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
There are so many liveries of them

Airlines do constant maintenance and planes get painted quite regularly. The reason we see so many Delta planes in old liveries is because they are NOT spending more money. They are painting the planes whenever they happen to be in for checks. The new livery may actually be cheaper than the old one, depending on decals, paint amounts, colors, whatever. So, obviously, Delta would only have changed their livery so significantly if it went along with the re-branding in a positive way, which, apprently, it did.

Now, whether or not it was worth it to change to such a terrible livery is another question altogether.

TIS



www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4582 times:

they have to be painted anyways so painting on a new livery doesn't necessarily cost more money than painting on an existing livery.

User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4560 times:

This has been discussed ad naseum but hey, to each their own. You're going to get some people hating it and some people loving with very little in between.

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
My question is Does it make sense to spend all this money on changing the livery of Deltas planes.

So many people just don't seem to understand these three simple points...

1 - Planes have to be repainted at some point. They aren't all in AA bare steel and decals.
2 - Coming out of bankruptcy is a good time to emphasize your brand.
3 - The older liveries had ties to the crappy leadership that put them into the position to enter bankruptcy in trhe first place. Why not get rid of that demon? I know it's a small thing but it does wonders for corporate morale.

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
There are so many liveries of them,

RIght now there are 3. The new one on a few planes, Wavy Gravy on a lot of planes, and a few left with the Ron Allen colors. I'm not really counting Song since those are all going to get converted soon along with the Ron Allen ones. They are working on getting to a single brand. There have been mistakes in the past and they are working to correct them with this change.

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
Why not save your money and spend it else where?

Repeat after me...planes have to be painted anyways.  Wink

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
What was wrong with what there planes looked like?

Again, ties to the old regime (simmer down with the comments about Grinstein being that regime) that need to be gone.

Quoting B6ramprat (Thread starter):
Its gotta cost bucks to paint these planes and well Delta doesn't really seem to have the money right now.

One more time, and this time with feeling...planes need to be painted anyways.  Wink

The money to paint the planes is the cost of doing business. It has to be budgeted for. Did you ask the same question when UA came out of bankruptcy and brought out the new livery? Did you ask the same question when CO rebranded after their bankruptcies in the 80s?



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineFlyTUITravel From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 723 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4525 times:

For all you saying that planes get repainted during a check, thats not necessarily true - planes come in and out of the hangers at BY without paying a visit to MST for repaint. It would be waaaayyy too expensive for airlines to repaint their planes every year!
I agree that it would be more economical for DL to just maybe add new decals on the existing paint scheme and only repaint the ones in the late-90s widget livery...


FLYTUITRAVEL.


User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4522 times:

Quoting FlyTUITravel (Reply 4):
For all you saying that planes get repainted during a check, thats not necessarily true - planes come in and out of the hangers at BY without paying a visit to MST for repaint. It would be waaaayyy too expensive for airlines to repaint their planes every year!

We understand that. We mean heavy checks that do not happen every year when the plane is getting torn apart anyways and will be out of commission for some time.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineFlyTUITravel From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 723 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4498 times:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):

We understand that. We mean heavy checks that do not happen every year when the plane is getting torn apart anyways and will be out of commission for some time.

Sorry about that then - my mistake!  Wink


FLYTUITRAVEL.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21626 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4490 times:

The changing of liveries makes sense. What they changed it to, on the other hand....  no 

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePplsxprs75 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4468 times:

I am inclined to agree with DeltaGator here. Changing the livery of the entire fleet could be a way show a "Fresh" start and a renewal of the airline.

Of topic, I can't stand the new livery.  boggled 


User currently offlineBOSSAN From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4433 times:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
They aren't all in AA bare steel and decals.

Whoa, when did AA get steel airplanes?  Smile



User currently offlineRafflesKing From Singapore, joined Mar 2007, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 4433 times:

I thought I recall reading it would be a cost savings because DL cut the number of colors they use in the tail scheme by half.

User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4365 times:

Quoting FlyTUITravel (Reply 6):
Sorry about that then - my mistake!

No problem. And I said we but I probably should have said I instead. I can't speak for the other guys.

Quoting BOSSAN (Reply 9):
Whoa, when did AA get steel airplanes?

Yeah, I know. Metal vs. Steel. My bad. I'm still waiting to see a natural wood finish with a nice topcoat of glossy poly.  Wink

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
The changing of liveries makes sense. What they changed it to, on the other hand....

The change makes sense more than any of the other changes from the original Widget. I on the other hand am somewhat indifferent on the tail. I see the widget and even can take a little bit of something that looks like a paper airplane.

Where they lose me is the crappy ass font they picked to spell Delta with at the front. At least tilt it like the old livery for a small bit of flair and subconscious meaning of speed.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4348 times:

Quoting RafflesKing (Reply 10):
I thought I recall reading it would be a cost savings because DL cut the number of colors they use in the tail scheme by half.

Also it helps in the simplification. With the rudder (which is very weight-sensitive), the wavy-gravy livery was (from what I've heard, FWIW) very difficult along these lines. With the new paint, it's much simpler and the weight-distribution of the paint is a lot easier.


User currently offlineNotdownnlocked From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 935 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4348 times:

The official font name for the widget is catawompus the shark widget. Hopefully it will changed again at the beginning of the next ad agency fad. Just look at the new MX/JL/UA and others with the oversized logos. It's just a passing fad.

User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11349 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4348 times:

Bring back Deltaflot!!

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 2):
they have to be painted anyways so painting on a new livery doesn't necessarily cost more money than painting on an existing livery.

Then why so many planes still flying in the livery before last? Those paintjobs must be nearing 10 years old. I don't think the whole plane gets painted.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
We understand that. We mean heavy checks that do not happen every year when the plane is getting torn apart anyways and will be out of commission for some time.

Same question, really. Unless DL plans to phase in the new livery only at the D checks (in which case there will be 3 different Delta liveries running around, each blander than the one before it), this is just a major expense at a time when DL doesn't need to be spending money on these things. Delta just exited bankruptcy, and it was a pricey coming-out party at that. Just ask US Airways about how easy it is to slip back into bankruptcy when poor decisions are made after exiting the first time. Good luck to them, but I sure hope DL is keeping its nose clean.



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User currently offlineORD From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1382 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4239 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
this is just a major expense at a time when DL doesn't need to be spending money on these things.

I couldn't disagree more. Delta, like every other company, works with various budgets. One of those is the marketing budget. The marketing budget has funds allocated for spending on projects deemed worthy by the marketing director (Tim Mapes). Delta has determined that the best way to spend the marketing dollars is to rebrand the airline coinciding with the emergence from bankruptcy. If Delta had chosen not to rebrand, it still would have needed to spend the marketing money on things like a new advertising campaign, etc. All Delta did was include other elements in order to have a cohesive new look (airport signage, baggage name tags, ticket jackets, etc.). The actually paint job on the plane is just one part of the overall program. It would look odd to have all-new branding with planes that don't "match" the new look.

Plus, the repainting is not being rushed (only three mainline planes have been painted in 2-1/2 months). And it is cheaper to implement than the previous paint scheme because it uses fewer colors.

As mentioned in other posts, morale is also a big part of the new scheme. From what I have read (I am not a Delta employee), Deltaflot was hated by many because a.) it was associated with Leo Mullin and the worst few years in Delta's history and b.) it lost touch with the widget. I think Delta did a remarkable job with the new livery and rebranding.

As for US Airways, I don't believe they changed in bankruptcy anywhere near the extent that Delta did. Delta re-did their entire business model with a dramatic shift toward international flying, similar to the successful changes Continental went through. US Airways made no such change to their business model.


User currently offlineBOSSAN From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 255 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4160 times:

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 11):
I'm still waiting to see a natural wood finish with a nice topcoat of glossy poly.

That we can do!  thumbsup 

http://www.cabq.gov/museum/history/images/72Biplane_000.jpg


User currently offlinePExDCA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4060 times:

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 2):
they have to be painted anyways so painting on a new livery doesn't necessarily cost more money than painting on an existing livery.



Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
Repeat after me...planes have to be painted anyways.



Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 3):
One more time, and this time with feeling...planes need to be painted anyways.

It is not as simple as just painting planes.

How about...
- the airport signage at every ticket counter, gate and hangar facility?
- the updates to all the website info?
- all the stationery, business cards, ticket jackets?
- all the seatback safety cards and inflight videos?
- plus, I know that they paid handsomely to have the new logo/livery professionally designed and consumer tested.

These were not all "necessary" expenses at this point in time and to employees that are hungry to have financial compensation and benefits sacrifices repaid, forgoing this expense MIGHT have been viewed (by those employees) as a gesture of goodwill.



"A single twig breaks, but the bundle of twigs is strong." - Tecumseh
User currently offlineN160LH From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4054 times:

Someone check me on this...

But, I have heard that the new DL livery is actually cheaper to paint than the Deltaflot Livery... The reason is that the new paint job only requires three different color... where the Deltaflot livery required 10 or 11 different colors... Fewer colors... equals less inventory needed at the paint shop...

-0LH



"I do alright up in the air, its down on the ground that I tend to mess up..."
User currently offlineDl757md From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1562 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 1):
They are painting the planes whenever they happen to be in for checks.

No, we aren't. Delta hasn't scheduled paint visits with HMVs in the 16 years I've been with them. I've worked in the paint shop and in general our planes are painted on condition. Generally the ones with the worst condition paint get painted first. Marketing can override that with their needs and scheduling also can affect when a plane gets painted.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
Then why so many planes still flying in the livery before last? Those paintjobs must be nearing 10 years old. I don't think the whole plane gets painted.

The info I have which was last updated in January,says the oldest paint job we have is the 757 ship 616 which was last painted Sept. 17,1998. An even dozen aircraft were last painted last decade which leaves 428 aircraft with a paint job less than 8 years old. Additionally as of January we only had 27 planes in the Ron Allen livery.

At Delta sometimes the whole plane gets painted other times not. It depends on the overall condition and other factors.

DL757Md



757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
User currently offlineDALMD88 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2554 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3980 times:

DL757md is very correct about the paint policy at DL. As for the cost savings, it isn't the number of different paints. The wavy tail only had a couple of shades of each of the colors. The big savings is the time. The wavy tail was all done freehand and took 24 hours to do. In comparison the Ron Allen tail only took 6 hours. I'll bet the new tail only takes about six also.

User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3874 times:

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 17):
It is not as simple as just painting planes.

How about...
- the airport signage at every ticket counter, gate and hangar facility?
- the updates to all the website info?
- all the stationery, business cards, ticket jackets?
- all the seatback safety cards and inflight videos?
- plus, I know that they paid handsomely to have the new logo/livery professionally designed and consumer tested.

These were not all "necessary" expenses at this point in time and to employees that are hungry to have financial compensation and benefits sacrifices repaid, forgoing this expense MIGHT have been viewed (by those employees) as a gesture of goodwill.

One more time....the cost of doing business. Do some people have a problem understanding the simple concept of spending money to make money?

Airport signage? A drop in the bucket in the long run.

Website updates? Come on, grasping at straws. It's a logo change and the webmaster needs to do something during the day when not playing World of Warcraft.  Wink

Stationary? Perhaps based on how much is sitting around HQ but still a drop in the bucket.

Business cards? Again, a drop in the bucket. I've never met a pilot, stewardess/steward, or mechanic with business cards.

Ticket jackets? Again, a drop in the bucket and they have to be printed anyways.

Seatback safety cards? Doubtful. I'll check tomorrow's flight but I don't ever remember seeing a Delta logo on the cards.

Inflight videos? Saftey video...sure, but yet again a drop in the bucket. IFE...it gets switched out at some point anyways so just start using the new logo on the next cycle.

As for the employees wanting a gesture of goodwill I only need to direct you to the video that was released as part of the exit from bankruptcy to see the morale boosted quite a bit by the changes. Of course I noticed you used the word MIGHT in your sentence as an out for when challenged on your ideas. I'm sure there are SOME employees (see how that works, I've given myself an out just like you) were upset the money was spent but I would bet that the majority of employees are fine with it.

But as with ourselves whether they like the actual logo is a completely different topic.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3305 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3831 times:
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Quoting PExDCA (Reply 17):
How about...

All these have to do with re-branding, and not with the livery change. Re-branding is a different story altogether, and yes, this was necessary because of the new image Delta wants now that it's out of bankruptcy.

The livery comes along with it, so, yes, the new livery makes sense and may not cost them more money than the old one.

As for this comment...

Quoting PExDCA (Reply 17):
- plus, I know that they paid handsomely to have the new logo/livery professionally designed and consumer tested.

They clearly didn't do enough customer testing. The ideal sample group would be this website and with all the negative feedback the livery is getting, it's obvious they should have re-thought it. (Half-joking)

TIS



www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11349 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3779 times:

Quoting ORD (Reply 15):
I couldn't disagree more. Delta, like every other company, works with various budgets. One of those is the marketing budget. The marketing budget has funds allocated for spending on projects deemed worthy by the marketing director (Tim Mapes). Delta has determined that the best way to spend the marketing dollars is to rebrand the airline coinciding with the emergence from bankruptcy. If Delta had chosen not to rebrand, it still would have needed to spend the marketing money on things like a new advertising campaign, etc.

Well, a new advertising campaign would go a lot further with television and print advertising instead of painting the planes. So many people couldn't care less what color the plane is, but a television commercial might get their attention. I remember Delta having excellent commercials in the 90s and early 2000s. How many commercials could they buy if they could use the money for repainting for commercials instead?



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User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3759 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
I remember Delta having excellent commercials in the 90s and early 2000s.

Yes they did.

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
How many commercials could they buy if they could use the money for repainting for commercials instead?

Just to play Devil's Advocate here...in this day of Tivo and DVRs how many people would just skip right past those commercials. I know I would and I like aviation. I can only imagine the same from folks who could care less.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
25 Halls120 : The answer to this question is obvious, especially on Anet. There are far too many stupid "why is __ airline doing ___" when the answer is plainly ob
26 Antoniemey : None. They're spending LESS now to repaint the planes than they were before the changed the livery.
27 EMBQA : Even in heavy check planes do not require paint after coming out. I've been in this business for 12 years and have seen a lot of planes painted. Not
28 DeltaGator : Interesting to know on the heavy checks. I figure it is as good a time as any to get it painted then but if not then so be it. And I've been saying a
29 Post contains images D L X : Sure, but it's perfectly reasonable to question a business decision (even if you're not a CEO) when you honestly don't believe that there will be a r
30 Post contains images DeltaGator : No, everything he has done has been perfect so far. We have the national championship to prove it. I've never said Grinstein is infallible. Only the
31 FLYGUY767 : Honestly, look at the paint on Delta Air Lines and then look at the paint on the new United Airlines livery, if anyone should be spending money somew
32 Post contains images D L X : That's a good point, for sure. However, interestingly enough, (having had this exact same conversation with a schoolmate), studies have shown that Ti
33 DeltaGator : Interesting. It makes good sense. Perhaps I'm smarter than the average bear or have somewhat of a marketing background but I do notice commercials li
34 FLYGUY767 : 100% Agreed.. Reputations are everything to the airlines, as are the names and images associated with the name of an airline. When someone says Briti
35 Post contains images PExDCA : Business 101 Lesson of the Day: You can also spend money foolishly and not have it bring a Return-On-Investment. And if there is not a tangible ROI t
36 Post contains images DeltaGator : Absolutely. I was preaching that left and right as I saw my company spend VC money foolishly like it was printed on toilet paper in the late 90s up u
37 Post contains images PExDCA : How about Global Director of Marketing for a company consistently ranked near the top on BusinessWeek's "Most Valuable Brands" list... good enough? N
38 DeltaGator : Oh please. Whatever floats your boat but calling me some brainwashed Widget Junkie is childish from someone who says they are a Global Director of Ma
39 Post contains images UAL777UK : Your constant bashing on this site of UA is getting boring, please try and diversify that anger somewhere else, your getting a reputation on this sit
40 ImperialEagle : Recently saw one of these old Budd "rags" rotting away at the Pima Air Museum in Tuscon.
41 Asteriskceo : Consumer tested? Like did they go up to crack heads on the street and ask for their opinions? It would seem that way...
42 Alitalia744 : Agree, but it is rather difficult to determine the ROI levels on a brand image change. Especially given that the majority of consumers within Delta's
43 GlobalATL : True. I heard it said by somebody on the webcast. They're hoping the corrosion will become less on the tail.
44 ORD : Aside from consumers, the new Delta livery was developed in conjunction with an internal brand group. That's right, Delta's very own employees, acros
45 Post contains images PExDCA : Very true! Thanks for providing this perspective! It is part of the basis of my comments... the livery, logo font and signage changes are significant
46 ORD : I respectfully disagree. I think this was the best time for Delta to rebrand. Rebranding signals change, and not too many companies have changed more
47 DeltaGator : I realize I never discussed the ROI topic but it was late last night and I'm fighting allergies. ROI on a branding concept is very tough to determine
48 Post contains images PExDCA : I knew that if we kept this dialogue going long enough we would agree on something! Or unless they were curious to see the unveiling and how what was
49 DeltaGator : Just curious, do you get bewildered by the ads on TV and just wonder who in the heck the target demo is by the way they present something or the comp
50 JTR : I think I'm one of the six people in the world that like Delta's new livery better than the old ones. Too bad I live in DFW and will never fly them.
51 Post contains images PExDCA : Some marketing folks take the approach of casting too wide of a net hoping to catch more fish. Sometimes that strategy does not work. I think you hav
52 Spacecadet : I work in marketing and have for the last 7 years. The biggest campaigns I've been involved in have been for quarter-billion dollar products. Very fe
53 Post contains images ImperialEagle : IMO the new livery looks o.k., it would, however ,be nice if they would have carried the new colors and stylized widget theme from the tail to include
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