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Delta To Ilfc For The 787?  
User currently offlinePmg1704 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 162 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12153 times:

Anybody else notice this tidbit? I did a search but didn't see anything.

Quote:
Steve Udvar-Hazy, founder and CEO of International Lease Finance Corp. and the biggest customer for the Dreamliner, was eager to see it.

"Even if you buy 74, you don't get a peek before you guys," he said to a small group of journalists before the 3:30 p.m. ceremony started.

Hazy disclosed that he has a meeting Monday in Atlanta with Delta Air Lines. Delta's new CEO recently said that it might order as many as 100 Dreamliners.



http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/322904_dreamliner09.html

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDLOnur From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 290 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12122 times:

Delta's "New CEO"?

 Confused

Grinstein hasn't left yet.....

Though, considering how backed up Boeing is with 787 orders, going through a leasing agency is going to be the best way for DL to get a hold of a bunch of 787's.....

-o-



What you believe is what you see.
User currently offlineCruzinAltitude From United States of America, joined May 2004, 415 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12015 times:

It would make sense for DL to get some leased 787's to cover the shorter term needs, then order some more for 2013 and beyond. Just a thought...

User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12015 times:

They must be talking about Whitehurst.


The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlineMptpa From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12003 times:

I read that too, and thought to myself that the CFO is going to become the new CEO as suspected. Then, the only way to get the early 787s would be via someone who is holding the spots and that would be ILFC. They could lease say for 5 years till they get their own frames, or make a deal with ILFC on buy-leaseback which is better on the books than straight purchase (off balance sheet transaction). Either case, it is about time for DAL to get some of the 787s to replace those 767s and 757s.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11982 times:

I think you will see both DL and AA order 787s and take leased aircraft. This is something some people are missing. Between the likely "slot reservations" that these two key carriers have and the ability to pick up leased aircraft, they could both amass rather large 787 fleets starting in 2009. They haven't missed the boat by any means.

There was also an unconfirmed rumor that CO wanted to greatly increase it's number sooner than later, and it could also do so via the lease companies, either via direct lease or trading a later slot for an earlier slot (with compensation).



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11868 times:

Most of ILFC's 787s will be RR-powered. I would assume that GE would be the preferred choice for Delta, as GE has financed Delta in bankruptcy and that Delta has ordered the 777-200LR. AA will probably go for the RR-powered aircraft.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDLOnur From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 290 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11817 times:

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 3):
They must be talking about Whitehurst.

Whitehurst is the COO and yeah, that must have been a "typo"...right?  Wink

While there is serious internal discussion between Whitehurst and Bastian as internal candidates, there is also serious discussion of external candidates as well. The BOD will have final say in the matter.

Regardless, nothing will probably be made public at least till late in the summer/early fall.



What you believe is what you see.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11786 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
Most of ILFC's 787s will be RR-powered.

Well, right now, there are still something like 30 that are not specified.

And ILFC has 73 of 74 orders as 788, so they are looking toward carriers that want 763ER replacements. AA and DL come to mind.

I also assume GECAS has some reserved slots for the plane even if they haven't announced. So there's a source for GE power.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineATLAaron From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1023 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11732 times:

Quoting DLOnur (Reply 7):
While there is serious internal discussion between Whitehurst and Bastian as internal candidates, there is also serious discussion of external candidates as well. The BOD will have final say in the matter.

Although I believe Grinstein put in his opinion that they should choose an internal candidate.

Great thread and observation by the OP though.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11677 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
AA will probably go for the RR-powered aircraft.

That was my opinion too on another thread. While I am not surprised to see the likes of AA & DL talking to ILFC and I would expect a combo of lease & buy, I'm still mystified that GECAS hasn't pulled the 787 trigger yet.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineLokey123 From Barbados, joined May 2006, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11521 times:

Leasing companies are still very tentative to over exposure to the American majors. However, with that being said, I still believe that leasing companies will still have some slots available for them but not in extremely large numbers.

User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8508 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11474 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
Most of ILFC's 787s will be RR-powered. I would assume that GE would be the preferred choice for Delta, as GE has financed Delta in bankruptcy and that Delta has ordered the 777-200LR.

Delta did order their other 777s with RR and they were pleased with the RB211 on the L-1011 (once it got past its earliest years).


User currently offlineMrComet From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 561 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11474 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
Most of ILFC's 787s will be RR-powered. I would assume that GE would be the preferred choice for Delta, as GE has financed Delta in bankruptcy and that Delta has ordered the 777-200LR. AA will probably go for the RR-powered aircraft.

i thought one of the advantages of the 787 was that engines could be swapped easily and that leasing companies especially were pushing this. Well? Was it hype or is it real?



The dude abides
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6633 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11371 times:

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 12):
Delta did order their other 777s with RR and they were pleased with the RB211 on the L-1011 (once it got past its earliest years).

Well, Delta did not have a choice on the L-1011. As for the 777s, the Trent was considered the best engine at the time, and Delta went with what most airlines chose. In fact, RR is still the market leader on the 777, however, they may soon be beaten by GE as GE is the exclusive engine for the 777-200LR and 777-300ER.

Delta has never had a history of preferring any engine manufacturer. Delta chose P&W for the 757s, and operates a mix of GE and P&W engines for the 767s. Since all future 777 orders from Delta will either be of the 777-200LR or 777-300ER, GE is simply the wise choice for the 787.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11328 times:

Quoting MrComet (Reply 13):

i thought one of the advantages of the 787 was that engines could be swapped easily and that leasing companies especially were pushing this. Well? Was it hype or is it real?

Engines can be swapped, but the engines themselves are an expensive asset. Naturally they aren't going to want swap out a large number of one engine make with another make.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11286 times:

I dont mean to steal the thread but lets say that DL wanted to lease a 788 from ILFC and then wants to buy the ILFC's plane (Brand new plane on delivery) sort of like getting a slot free from ILFC? Does that make sense? Is that even legal to do?


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3425 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11199 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 15):
Engines can be swapped, but the engines themselves are an expensive asset. Naturally they aren't going to want swap out a large number of one engine make with another make.

Indeed they are, but it remains that putting engines into storage is better than putting a whole airplane in storage. Even better, if you do it enough, you can have a nice open market for engines. So ILFC might not have to sit on engines, it might be able to slog them off to airlines as spares, or other leasing companies that have contracts for 787 frames with the opposite engine configuration.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11047 times:

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 4):
it is about time for DAL to get some of the 787s to replace those 767s and 757s.

They'll be used for growth long before replacement

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
Most of ILFC's 787s will be RR-powered. I would assume that GE would be the preferred choice for Delta, as GE has financed Delta in bankruptcy and that Delta has ordered the 777-200LR.

Not all of ILFC's engine options have been confirmed, and DL is no stranger to RR.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 14):
Delta has never had a history of preferring any engine manufacturer.

...oh? PW might beg to differ.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9672 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 10905 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 14):
Since all future 777 orders from Delta will either be of the 777-200LR or 777-300ER, GE is simply the wise choice for the 787

i wouldn't hold my breath on DL not get some more 772ERs

DL said THEY WOULD ORDER 135 planes(i dont see them leasing alot maybe 20 at the most)........Boeing WILL have some early slots and the 767s won't be out of the fleet for 5 to 10 more years at least (most of the leased 767-300ERs(which are the oldest in the fleet) the lease is up in 2011 and on after that?



yep.
User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2100 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10778 times:

Quoting DLOnur (Reply 7):
Regardless, nothing will probably be made public at least till late in the summer/early fall.

From Bastian's employee chat on June 8th:

(employee) When can we expect the CEO selection to be made public?

(Bastian) They didn't ask me my opinion, but I would expect prior to the end of July.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):
Most of ILFC's 787s will be RR-powered. I would assume that GE would be the preferred choice for Delta, as GE has financed Delta in bankruptcy

Not necessarily. Although GE helped DL through a difficult time, DL certainly does not OWE GE an engine order for the 787's.


User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10568 times:

I think this is the only way dl will get the 787 really early, ya Boeing will give them some early slots but probably not as early as dl could get them through a lease, and engine type might not matter to dl if they can get a plane sooner and itlooks like aa might do the same

User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 10349 times:

As for the idea that DL would need to buy GE engines, DL has financing contracts with all of its lessors and financiers and having an obligation to buy from them is not one of the provisions. For one thing, no company completely has any contract and the other participants in a contract don't want a provision that could inflate the cost of a service or asset which DL might need. GE may or may not be the best supplier for 787 engines; other companies besides GE don't benefit from a requirement that DL would have to buy GE engines or use their financing services if DL can get a better deal elsewhere. In fact, having no "preferred supplier" might actually allow DL to get a better deal from GE.

DL needs 787s but they are also putting winglets on at least some of their 767s and adding the crew rest facilities in order to fly 6000 mile routes. There obviously is still a 2000 mile range difference between the 767 and 787 but the 767s are in the fleet and on the books while the 787 is a new addition. Given DL's presence in ATL and JFK, the 777LR might be the most important a/c for DL to add to the fleet since DL's real need is to reach deep into Asia and the 788 still doesn't open all of the Asian markets DL needs to open. Also, Asia flights tend to operate on larger gauge aircraft. For now, DL is alone in developing the Middle East and Africa, routes where the 787 would most likely be used on from the east coast. From the west coast, however, the 787 would be the ideal aircraft to open up new markets.


User currently onlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16892 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9651 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
Given DL's presence in ATL and JFK, the 777LR might be the most important a/c for DL to add to the fleet since DL's real need is to reach deep into Asia and the 788 still doesn't open all of the Asian markets DL needs to open

The 787-9 has the longest range (thus far) of the 787 line, a range of 8,200-8,500nm. That puts Hong Kong within reach of ATL.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
For now, DL is alone in developing the Middle East and Africa, routes where the 787 would most likely be used on from the east coast. From the west coast, however, the 787 would be the ideal aircraft to open up new markets

Israel is in the Middle East and CO has been flying twice daily 777s from EWR for 8-9 years, Kuwait is also in the Middle East and United is flying to Kuwait from IAD. So DL is far from being alone, they are just johnny come lately.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9625 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
DL is alone in developing the Middle East

...UA may disagree, though I'm curious if they'll actually continue to delve deeper into such markets-- have my doubts.


25 DL Widget Head : Hardly Johnny come lately. DL served many middle East destinations years ago (prior to both CO and UA) that had to be suspended for various reasons.
26 STT757 : DL left, CO stayed. That bought CO alot of good will from frequent travelers between the US and Israel.
27 Post contains links DeltaL1011man : just a question how do we know that this meeting is about 787s? the new/old 752s that DL is getting from AA is owned buy ILFC right? and could it be a
28 CV880 : DL did serve CAI/DXB before 9/11/01, and is back in DXB and will serve TLV 2x/daily as of next March. Neither CO nor UA serves Africa. As for Europe
29 DL Widget Head : Fortunately, it seems very, very few if any are harboring any ill will toward DL for suspending their service to TLV as the ATL-TLV flight is doing p
30 ConcordeBoy : ....I wasn't talking about DL Based on what?
31 DAYflyer : Perhaps with all the direct purchases of the frame and the large number ILFC has on order, they may be having trouble finding customers who require a
32 GlobalATL : Seems like people are mis-reading what WorldTraveler is trying to say. I believe the point to be DL is making a large plan in DEVELOPING a middle eas
33 1337Delta764 : Well, another reason why I think GE engines would be the best option for Delta is that they ordered the 777-200LR. AC chose GE engines for the 787 for
34 EA772LR : Once DL receives its 772LR's and takes on some 787's, they'll have a pretty nice and modern fleet. Not to change the topic, but what are the odds of C
35 STT757 : How does WT know that CO and UAL are not planning further expansion into the region, with CO acquiring 787s I think it's a safe bet to see new flight
36 EA772LR : "however the 777-200LR is not necessary. It's too heavy and too expensive for CO, the 787-9 can do the job more efficiently." Good Point. I wonder if
37 MCOAviationFan : Does ILFC have any 777ERs coming available for lease? Since DL will probably be awarded ATL-PVG soon, it follows that the two 777LRs arriving in early
38 XT6Wagon : The current 787 will still be very popular even if they do a new high MTOW family, given that the 788 reaches down to the 757-300 market and covers t
39 ER757 : Scott Carson was on the local news here in Seattle after the rollout and when asked about the order book he mentioned DL and AA specifically saying he
40 FLYGUY767 : How many times has Continental him-hawed around with service to Lagos.. Finally, Delta Air Lines came up to the plate and started service to Lagos fr
41 FLYGUY767 : How many times has Continental him-hawed around with service to Lagos.. Finally, Delta Air Lines came up to the plate and started service to Lagos fr
42 STT757 : Which do you think is more lucrative, ATL-Dubai, ATL-Lagos. Or IAH-Dubai, IAH-Lagos? Note, Emirates is coming to IAH this fall. Also note the many We
43 Post contains links Beech19 : That couldn't be farther from wrong. RR hasn't been the market leaded on ther 777 for many years. Current announced engine orders (in number of plane
44 Fewsolarge : I won't argue with that. But it doesn't invalidate Delta's service at ATL, where the hub size and the more Easterly position have their own, differen
45 WorldTraveler : the point is that DL serves 2 points in the Middle East now and the number will grow..... regardless of what CO announces, DL has more airplanes avai
46 Danny : I seriously doubt ILFC or any other lessor would like to place 125 or even 80 787s with one carrier. Particularly with a poor credit one.
47 STT757 : DL has one more year left of their 767 advantage, after that they are at a disadvantage to operators who will be competing with 787s which can fly fu
48 WesternA318 : This is probably the most likely theory, or perhaps do something like Frontier did with their Airbii, where a certain amount are owned and a certain
49 WorldTraveler : Your figures are actually considerably inflated... and with winglets on the 767, the advantage might be about 10% which isn't insignificant but there
50 STT757 : They are Boeing's figures, 27% greater efficiency vs 767-300ER.
51 777gk : Thought I'd take my time with this one... As WT succinctly mentioned, any ill will evaporated when a DL fare came up lower than a CO (or any other car
52 ConcordeBoy : Not always. The T7 can still carry significantly more revenue-potential payload than can the 789, the question is whether CO could generate/justify s
53 XT6Wagon : All of the 787's are in some manner "A" models despite the long range with passenger only loads. They have a massive range gain from the efficiency g
54 WorldTraveler : Whoa, Nelly. It's real convenient to forget that in 1999 DL operated the world's largest fleet of L1011s - many of which were flying domestic routes
55 Ikramerica : Exactly. The 767 was designed specifically for domestic service. It was only when the ER was launched that they were used for transatlantic. The 767
56 STT757 : As mentioned in the thread about the cargo capabilities the 777 enjoys over the 787, the 787 thus offers the same advantage vs the 767. So granted eve
57 Ilikeflight : Like said above it would make sense for DL to short term lease some 787's and order some for later delivery slots the 787 would look good in DL's colo
58 WorldTraveler : Cargo doesn't care whether it flies in a LD3 or 2 or an 8. And 767 operators don't discount their rates because they can't carry LD3s. Airlines set th
59 ConcordeBoy : ...that just shows you don't understand what the "A-market" represents; which BTW, doesn't change with any paradigm shift in generally-accepted perfo
60 XT6Wagon : No, I think its still that you do not know what it means. Its only that the massively lower fuel burn compared to its older counterparts has made the
61 Atmx2000 : The 783 falls well below A market range in marketed configurations. A market was medium haul and was from about 4000nm to somewhere below 6000nm. Tho
62 DeltaGuy : I thought Udvar said something a few months ago about US airlines not being good lease holders for aircraft? I'll try to find that article. With that
63 STT757 : I saw that too, a few weeks ago,I think he was expressing more frustration that US airlines are not as aggressive in coming to ILFC for new widebodie
64 Ikramerica : That's just not true. It is a true B market plane.
65 777gk : Semantics... the airplane is a much better moneymaker on longer-haul routes where there is a higher average yield per customer and fixed operating co
66 Jacobin777 : ..he mentioned that because the legacies such as UA, NW, etc. had the ability to renegotiate their contracts during bankruptcy with the lessors..whic
67 Ikramerica : Totally. My point was not about "US domestic" but about the 767 being designed as a short/medium range aircraft first, and then extended into a mediu
68 WorldTraveler : I'm not doubting that... there are just way too many people here who want to say that DL was negligent in EVER flying 767s within the US. The reality
69 Glareskin : Delta is one of the big US legacy carriers that cannot buy aircraft. It is likely that they will talk to leasing companies for fleet renewal. The foll
70 Alitalia744 : Glare - Delta can buy aircraft.
71 DeltaL1011man : they cant? hints why they order(NOT LEASED) 6 77Ls and 30(i think its 30?) CRJ-900s
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