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MSP Airport Replacement (circa 1990s)?  
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3221 times:

I was chatting with an MSP A.netter about the propsal back in the 1990s for a replacement airport for MSP. THe propsal was pushed by a group concerned about pollution and noise. (one of the lead members later became the Mayor of St. Paul I think.)

It was proposed, discussed in the state senate, then knocked down and turned into the 2020 plan that is being undertaken now.

I was in college at the time and didn't pay much attention to the local news (busy um...studying...I think...hard to do at Hamline.) But I remember the discussions about the idea. I would have posted about it back then when A.net was free, but there wasn't a forum...just awesome photos.

So questions.
Where was the proposed replacement suppose to be? (I keep thinking Eden Prairie, Prior lake or Farmington...all impossible now)
What was the layout of the airport suppose to be?
Where there any draft designs or plans?
Was NWA pushing hard for it or were they to in the thick of DTW to even consider MSP?

Always fun to discuss things that could have happened and why they didn't.

[Edited 2007-07-11 03:24:42]

[Edited 2007-07-11 03:25:43]


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 923 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3193 times:

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
Where was the proposed replacement suppose to be? (I keep thinking Eden Prairie, Prior lake or Farmington...all impossible now)

They shot the idea down long before a location was chosen. I guess Farmington would have been/is still a viable idea.

Quoting Centrair (Thread starter):
What was the layout of the airport suppose to be?
Where there any draft designs or plans?

I believe that no plans were made, the costs of building a new airport were much higher than just making MSP into a better, quieter airport

Another thing that happened in the late 90s was the idea of a cargo twin. While the idea is still up there, it is talked about far less than it was circa 2003. The idea was to divert about half of the cargo operations from MSP to one airport which would be the outstate cargo hub. RST, STC, ILL, DLH, MKT, and others were all vying for this. Due to post-9/11 traffic deficiencies, this idea never really took flight.

There is also a study out there, called the Tier 2 Airport Survey, that did a study on airports in outstate MN (RST, DLH, STC, and EAU) and studied their leakage to MSP and their credibility as a secondary MSP airport. This was done in 2003 and the pdf can be found here:

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/aero/avoffice/pdf/executivesummary.pdf



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2662 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3144 times:

The new MSP was proposed to be in Farmington, it would have been able to handle more international traffic and big jets. It seems like there are houses surrounding the whole airport. DLH would be a good secondary airport. Are there any pictures of what it might have looked like?


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3115 times:

Kind of interesting to think of St. Cloud as being beefed up as a 2nd tier. It has space for development and if planned for the long time, could become a good secondary option for the Twin Cities (with connecting train service to downtown Minneapolis?) It could also become a good long-term replacement if staged right.

If the growth of the area around MSP over the past 20 years is any indication of the future, areas as far south as Farmington could have become major suburbs. I still can't believe that when I was in Elementary school, MSP still had a parking lot...not a garage...a parking lot. Edina was on the edge of the city. Eagan and Burnsville were farm towns. You could drive from Red Wing to Minneapolis on a two lane road.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 2):
Are there any pictures of what it might have looked like?

as N908AW said, it didin't get very far along.

I can imagine it would have been a multi parallel runway facility with a buildings for Skyteam and one for other carriers just like DTW. Being that it is the Twin Cities, the terminal design would have been modern and funky yet functional.

The state would have linked it to downtown Minneapolis and St. Paul by train. (or St. Paul would have suffered with a transfer to a bus line) I bet they would have also linked it by train to Rochester as well as part of a larger infrastructure project.

If I have time, maybe I will come up with my own design. Used to do that when I was a kid.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 923 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3056 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):
If I have time, maybe I will come up with my own design. Used to do that when I was a kid.

Whew. I thought I was the only one.

I guess it'd be interesting if MAC just supersized Airlake...hmmm.



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently offlineJsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2026 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3056 times:

Back in the early 1990s I had an annual report from the MSP airport authority that showed a blueprint for the new airport. It's long gone (thrown away during one of my parents' cleaning purges after I went to college) but IIRC it showed a pinwheel design somewhat like what was built in Denver, except turned 45 degrees and with only four runways (two northeast-southwest and two northwest-southeast). I also remember it said the new airport would be built near Vermillion, which is slightly east of Farmington, as others have pointed out.

If I still had the booklet I'd definitely scan in, but alas, it was tossed. Thanks Mom!


User currently offlineGEG2RAP From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 851 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3023 times:

it was to be down in the lakeville/farmington area. I remember one of my high school math teachers bet big on farm land down there with his retirement money, got bailed out in 2001 by a developer who wanted it for a new target.
Would have been interesting....


User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2662 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3013 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):

Used to do that when I was a kid.


I do the same thing now. If anyone wants me to show my plans I would be glad to. Would've been awesome to see what the new MSP might have looked like.
 Sad



It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineVincewy From Taiwan, joined Oct 2005, 767 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2970 times:

Quoting Jsnww81 (Reply 6):
Back in the early 1990s I had an annual report from the MSP airport authority that showed a blueprint for the new airport. It's long gone (thrown away during one of my parents' cleaning purges after I went to college) but IIRC it showed a pinwheel design somewhat like what was built in Denver, except turned 45 degrees and with only four runways (two northeast-southwest and two northwest-southeast). I also remember it said the new airport would be built near Vermillion, which is slightly east of Farmington, as others have pointed out.

I've read the newspaper article back in 1993 from Star Tribune, the proposed area was INDEED Vermillion between Hwy 52 and Interstate 35. Farmington? Unrealistic, even back in the early 90s there're already too many homes built near I-35, it's much worse now. Vermillion, on the other hand, haven't really been developed yet and can still be considered now.


User currently offlineAcidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2937 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

One of the neat things about MSP is the fact that it is so close to the commercial centers of Minneapolis and St. Paul. Yes, we could have built a brand-new airport out in the middle of nowhere like other cities have done in recent years but it would take an hour to get there! Although space is limited and awkward at MSP, its convenience is a major advantage to the area.

I kind of wish they would build STP into some kind of a Midway-like airport. It has a smaller but workable runway (14/32 is 6500x150). But that is big enough for RJ's, props and smaller narrowbodies. It would make an interesting alternative to MSP.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 3):
If the growth of the area around MSP over the past 20 years is any indication of the future, areas as far south as Farmington could have become major suburbs. I still can't believe that when I was in Elementary school, MSP still had a parking lot...not a garage...a parking lot. Edina was on the edge of the city. Eagan and Burnsville were farm towns. You could drive from Red Wing to Minneapolis on a two lane road.

In 1987, Eden Prairie was at least partially developed. The major commercial development, Eden Prairie Center, was built in 1977, and had been around for quite a while. Edina was not necessarily the edge of the city at this point, but had a lot of space left to build. Edina is currently 99% developed. At least one parking ramp existed by this point at MSP. Eagan and Burnsville were still at the beginning of development. Yes, the area has grown at a fast pace and continues to do so. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on who you ask), Minneapolis/St. Paul is one of the least dense metro areas in the nation. This makes it expensive to expand the water and sewer systems (sewer is done on a regional basis). It also makes it hard to plan something like an airport, because you have to put the thing so far out to get a large tract of land to work with.

Everyone wants some huge lot away from people to build on. Perhaps this echoes the anti-social personality of many Minnesotans. I live in an apt. bldg where people scurry away like rats if you say "hi" to them. Everyone around here wants 10 acres and a house. They don't ever go out on the 10 acres, they just don't want to talk to or see other people. It's at the least depressing, and of anything, disturbing.



Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlineJsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2026 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2897 times:

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 10):
Perhaps this echoes the anti-social personality of many Minnesotans.

This might be a throwback to the area's Scandinavian heritage. When I was in Sweden and Finland I found the people there to be much more standoffish than the rest of Europe. They're not rude or mean, they're just very rigid and cold until you really get to know them, and then they're wonderful. It might be a more midwestern trait in general; I live in Chicago and I've found people here to be the same, especially in the suburbs. It was quite a shock moving from Texas, where everyone says "hello" to everyone on the street, whether they know them or not.

The huge-lot phenomenon isn't limited strictly to the Twin Cities either. That whole of school of thought ("I want my big house and big lot, but I don't want to pay more than $250K for it") is what's driving suburban and exurban sprawl all over the country. It's the reason the Dallas/Fort Worth area now reaches halfway to Oklahoma and metropolitan Atlanta is starting to bleed into neighboring states like Tennessee and Alabama. People in the US, even with gas prices, just refuse to accept high density development, except in a few large cities or in these goofy "new-urbanism" developments that are popping up everywhere.

The result is mass sprawl, with lookalike housing developments punctuated every few miles by shopping centers that all have the same stores. What's worse, low density means that it's really, really hard to get public transportation to work, since it winds up being inconvenient for everyone (they still have to drive to a bus or train, and consequently don't use it.) 50 years from now, when gas costs I-don't-even-know-what, we're going to really regret the way we've built our cities.

Wow, I digressed a bit... back on topic, I'm all for new airports but I agree that MSP was definitely wiser to stay at the Wold-Chamberlain site and develop it as they've done. They've been able to connect it to their rail network, and it's still quite close to the business centers of both cities.


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12241 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2884 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 10):
I kind of wish they would build STP into some kind of a Midway-like airport. It has a smaller but workable runway (14/32 is 6500x150). But that is big enough for RJ's, props and smaller narrowbodies. It would make an interesting alternative to MSP.

Make that MKT and I'll agree with you  Smile



911, where is your emergency?
User currently offlineVivavegas From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 505 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2857 times:

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 10):
I kind of wish they would build STP into some kind of a Midway-like airport. It has a smaller but workable runway (14/32 is 6500x150). But that is big enough for RJ's, props and smaller narrowbodies. It would make an interesting alternative to MSP.

HELLO SKYBUS!

Craig
MKE



MKE / EYW / LAS - The true trifecta of aviation!
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2797 times:

STP is a viable airport. The location is excellent / spectacular. Corporate jets for 3M are there, plus other things.

MSP has enough room where it is now. The noise police were complaining about yesterday's louder jets which, of course, still exist at MSP, but less so every year.


User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2745 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 14):
STP is a viable airport.

Except for when it is under water.

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 10):
In 1987, Eden Prairie was at least partially developed... Eagan and Burnsville were still at the beginning of development.

In 1977, Burnsville was hardly at the beginning of development. At the time it had one of the largest high schools in the state. Eden Prairie Center opened in 1976, Burnsville Center in 1977. Both cities are considered "second ring suburbs" and their modern day development started in the early to mid-60s when "first ring suburbs" like Richfield, Bloomington and St. Louis Park were filling up.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineRampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3125 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2724 times:

Quoting N908AW (Reply 5):
Quoting Centrair (Reply 4):
If I have time, maybe I will come up with my own design. Used to do that when I was a kid.

Whew. I thought I was the only one.

Had I the wherewithal to patent ideas when I was 14, I could have made money on the DEN design. Quite spooky, I chose the exact location, exact runway configuration (and I mean exact), and very similar terminal layout to what exists now, except 17 years prior to DIA opening in 1995. I have it saved somewhere in my archives. I don't recall designing an airport for Minneapolis, though I did do one (each) or Milwaukee, DesMoines, and Omaha. My dad was an architect, worked on a couple airport projects, so that must have been my inspiration. He obviously didn't take me TOO seriously, however.

-Rampart


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2709 times:

I think in another 10-15 years, as the Twin Cities continue to sprawl northward and westward, St Cloud Airport will have the sort of airline service Flint has now.

Flint became a viable alternative to DTW when traffic congestion in Detroit's northern suburbs got so bad it was faster to drive north to FNT than it was to drive south through the city of Detroit to DTW.

Already the drive from anywhere north of Maple Grove to MSP can be very tedious, especially at rush hour, and it's just going to keep getting worse. It will be interesting to see if Northwest puts in nonstops from STC to DTW first, or if they will wait until after an airline like AirTran or American Eagle adds STC.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 923 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2646 times:

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 15):

Except for when it is under water.

Haha. I was thinking the same thing. It's only like, 5 feet below the river level, right?

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 17):
I think in another 10-15 years, as the Twin Cities continue to sprawl northward and westward, St Cloud Airport will have the sort of airline service Flint has now.

Perhaps...though STC will likely never be nearly as big as the FNT area is now (70,000 vs. 200,000 metro population). Not only that...the infrastructure isn't quite there and, since there's not really much demand for it now, won't be for a while.

I don't RST will quite make it to the FNT-ish stage either, though I wouldn't mind it... RST's task (and STC's too for now) is to catch more and more of their own people (RST is probably still getting about 40% of Rochester's population, STC much much less) before trying to turn themselves into Minneapolis - Rochester Airport.



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8466 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2628 times:

There's no need for more service to STC when MSP is just an hour away. Even STC-ORD flights just would not serve any purpose. They'd be slower than driving to MSP and taking a nonstop.

User currently offlinePilottim747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1607 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2558 times:

Back in the mid 1990s, various state agencies (including the Metropolitan Airports Commission) analyzed proposals for how to expand MSP for future growth. Three scenarios were drawn up:
  • build a new airport
  • use the current airfield but build a completely new terminal (off of Hwy 62 and Hwy 77)
  • expand the current terminal
I believe there were 3 locations suggestions for a new airport. The two serious proposals were a location up by Forest Lake (IIRC) and a location south of Hastings. The Dakota County location south of Hastings ended up being the final proposal for a new airport site.

After lots of analysis the state of Minnesota preferred building a completely new terminal on the existing site. Northwest Airlines, however, was concerned about the costs of such an expansion and recommended the expansion of current facilities. As we know now...Northwest got its way (for better or for worse).

Big version: Width: 643 Height: 453 File size: 132kb



Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
User currently offlinePhatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1353 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2538 times:

Quoting Pilottim747 (Reply 20):
Reply 20

That design is a near-carbon copy of new DEN. Was that the intent of MAC?


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

Quoting Phatfarmlines (Reply 21):
Was that the intent of MAC?

I think when good ideas are developed why not reuse them.
Look at HKG, the design of the terminal was efficient so NGO used the idea but took off the top of the Y and separated the interior into International (south side) and domestic (north side).

Denver's runway layout is efficient for the US and the way we use aircraft. The use of remote terminals is found in a lot of airports.

I just took a little time and designed my image of a "MSP replacement". I looked at airports from around the world on google maps and identified the best aspects and ... DEN's runway layout is brilliant for preventing incursions and getting aircarft off the ground easily.

As for terminals I skipped the remote terminal as I feel it is not practical in the Minnesota weather. I went with a combination of HKG, ICN, the new CDG terminal and NGO. I used the idea of three T shaped concourses connected to a central Circle. The top of the T shapes use a curve found at CDG and ICN. The center comes from the old Satellite idea and the use of the long spaces from HKG and NGO.

One other aspect I put into my design is commercial space. As MSP is a transfer airport, having services found in SIN, HKG, BKK, and DXB would make it a world class airport. So passengers with long layovers or even short layovers can have a great time. I also thought about how NGO uses the space before security as a "shopping center" and since MSP is the capital of all shopping center cities, might as well add commercial space in the pre-security areas where the locals can go to hang out, go shopping, have a date, meetings, family day, or just general fun.

The following is a link to my design. It is a Zipped PDF.
Future MSP idea



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlinePilottim747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1607 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2405 times:

There seems to be some curiousity on the issue of a new airport for MSP. I have done a little research on it before and had thought about putting together a webpage summarizing past ideas for expanding MSP. Since there seems to be some interest maybe I will get around to that in the near future.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 22):
The following is a link to my design. It is a Zipped PDF.
Future msp idea

Your link didn't work. I'd be curious to see it, however.



Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 923 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 2365 times:

Quoting Pilottim747 (Reply 23):
Your link didn't work. I'd be curious to see it, however.

It worked for me. Good design...but unfortunately there probably isn't a perfect plot of land in the Cities that would facilitate that. I'm sure you're aware that the land space dictates the design and not the other way around.

Your design sure beats the snot out of the terminal-turned-urban-sprawl that is Lindbergh. Why can't we have a well thought out airport like DFW?



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
25 N353SK : STP is currently off limits to aircraft over 100,000 lbs. I don't know if this is a structural issue or just a statutory one, but under current regs
26 N908AW : Yeah, the runway is more than likely the reason. There's an ANG ramp though, which says to me the C-130 visits there. Quick fact check puts the C130
27 Post contains links Centrair : Try this then click on Files > futuremsp.pdf Want to add that the airport can be built in segments. The "T" can be added as needed. Basically it woul
28 Post contains images Rampart : Very cool! Just a couple comments on your design, which I like very much. First, while you say that the concourses could be built out in stages accor
29 Af773atmsp : I have done drawings of the 2020 Vision Plan but I don't have any designs of a new airport but I'll just make up a design: The new MSP would have 14 i
30 Centrair : Thanks for your comments. I debated hard and long with designs and decided on the one I posted. Originally I thought of 40 gates in the ring, with 30
31 Isitsafenow : Any dinosaurs out there remember when Donald Nyrop who ran NW from the late 40's to around 74 or 75 threatened to move NW HQ and maintenance to Sea-Ta
32 Centrair : I didn't know this. Nice bit of history. What was Nyrop's reasoning?
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