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Pan Am 103: 12 Years  
User currently offlineJiml1126 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1532 times:

Well, it's 12 years after the PA 103 Lockerbie bombing, any opinions or ideas?

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJiml1126 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1466 times:

Who does the terroist want to attack Pan Am instead of United or Delta in the 70's and 80's?

User currently offlineIainhol From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1467 times:

I don't think it was Pan Am they want to attack but more the US.
Iain


User currently offlineB757300 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 4114 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1465 times:

Well, Pan Am was the closest thing to a Flag Carrier that the U.S. ever had.


"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
User currently offlineTan flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1458 times:

First, May God have granted eternal peace to all that perished in PA103.

AT that time PA was still the pre-eminate US flag carrier in the world and had been a symbol of America since 1945.

May justice soon be had on those responsible!


User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1460 times:

This mark the 12 year anniversary my best friend and his family had boarded PA 103 and was supposed to spend christmas with me but never made it home. I hope that if the two men are infact guilty then they will both along with Momar Gadafi can burn in hell!!! It gets easier as time passes. But everytime I look at the TV and see the two suspects I feel that I want to kill them because 270 family and friends will never see their loved ones ever again. Their lives (including mine and my families) can't be repaired and the lives lost can't be replaced ever. I also still harbor blame for PA by not taking the threat seroiusly by increaseing security. Instead The CEO Thomas Plaskett and his right hand man Martin Shugrue applies for FAA waivers to skip hand searches on unaccompanied luggages on flights originating from Europe including PA 103. By the way; those bomb sniffing dogs you guys saw that PA had at their terminals were show dogs bough cheap from local kennels. I also habor hatred for the US government who notified US Embassy Officials but not the flying public of the bomb threat implicating the flight. As far as I'm concerned If PA can't protect their passengers from disasters like this; Then I'm glad they're gone. I don't care what you PA cheerleaders think. I've lost big along with many others. When I was in the PA terminal at JFK we recieved no help from PA as well as very little help from the US Gov to help the family members sort out the mess and to help confirm if infact family members were aboard the plane. Instead of helping us Rude and unsympatetic employees gaves up a bunch of red tape. There was a man infront of us on line with his wife to see if 3 relatives aboard the plane. After what seemed like an hour of begging to the gate agent he looked up the computer and the agent said in a rude and unsympatetic manner "You're lucky on the one but lost two." The man wanted to kill the agent for that but his wife, my dad along with another man talked him out of it. I was 8 years old at the time and this event is quite tramatizing to an 8 year old to find out that his best frind dies violently because of sear incompetance by the US gov ant PA (both of whom I trusted with my life) Now my respect for both especially PA went down with the plane that killed my friend who was 9 years old along with his family. PA might hav been good during the Trippe era but after Lockerbie I'm sure he would've turned in his grave over how the management screwed up his pride and joy.


"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineLatinplane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2709 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1448 times:

Hi,

I truly sympathise with you, Virgin A340, over the loss of your loved ones in the tragic case of Pan Am flight #103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. I and everyone will understand your point of view, for we cannot be put in your shoes to live and understand what pain you went through in the ordeal.

Even though Pan Am was to blame in some way for not properly securing itself from such prominent threats during a time when American aircraft were subject to be put through such scrutiny as did TWA's 727 at Beirut. It was something that Pan Am couldn't really stop from happening. I really don't think that the technology was sophisticated enough at the time to smell the syntex material used in the making of the bomb.

Pan Am like TWA were the obvious choices as both served as symbols of American culture. But it is now known that any American airline flying those routes to Europe could have been the subject of this event. The terrorist (helped by Lybia) had planned to put a bomb on either American Airlines or Pan Am. Both chosen due to their name status as American flag carriers. Obviously, it was Pan Am who they chose to send their message through. But if they had just decided to chose American Airlines instead of Pan Am, then flight #103, Clipper Maid of the Seas, would have arrived at JFK uneventfully and a American Airlines flight #???, DC-10 Luxuryliner, would have gone in the history books as the unlucky martir that was lost over the Atlantic ocean. Furthermore, if we study the subject and go deep into it's roots, who are we really to blame for if the Iran Air A300 wouldn't have been shot down over the persian gulf by the U.S. Navy, then non of this would really have never happened.

But who better than you to know what really happened that eventfull night as you witnessed history through your own very young eyes.

Pan Am is now gone, not just because of the Lockerbie accident, for there were many self inflicting issues that brought the then American flag carrier to the ground. And even though it's 9 years after it shut down, I still hold some feelings to it because when I was born (23 years ago) it was still the grandest airline of all, and it was my country's flag carrier to the world and for that it had to pay a very high price...


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Frank Schaefer


May all the victims rest in peace...



Best regards,
Apollo Diaz
Los Angeles, CA.





User currently offlineSn330 From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 16 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1442 times:

VirginA340-
You have sympathy. I hope that no one else has to experience that kind of tragedy in their life, especially at such a young age. Your post almost drove me to tears.


User currently offlineSn330 From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 16 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1435 times:

VirginA340-
You have my sympathy. I hope that no one else has to experience that kind of tragedy in their life, especially at such a young age. Your post almost drove me to tears.


User currently offlineTurboTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1438 times:

I think that the Pan Am 103 flight was the worst disaster ever. That is, in my opinion. I find it disgusting that terroists do this, and that they caused over 250 deaths of innocent people. This was also a gruesome crash. I won't go into detail about it, but Lockerbie looked like a horrifying town on that night. My thoughts go out...

TurboTristar


User currently offlineTan flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1903 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1432 times:

VirginA340...My sympathy for you and your family.
I will pray for you that time & God's grace will envelope you as you face this each year.

Blessings to you.


User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 1423 times:

Thank you all for your condolenses. I've been able to actually put up my christmas lights after the 10 year anniversary of PA 103 around the same time Lockerbie had put up theirs again meaning that we are all recovering in our own way. The only thing that egged me on were my parents helping me move on and on how much my friend and his family loved christmas and would definantly go all out. Unfotionatly for some; they remain bitter and feel that they are dead inside but still living; (More tragically even to this day). I can tell you from experience that just getting out of bed to eat breakfast was an accomplishment for me days after the plane went down. I was crying for a few days and couln't stop until I got tired and went back to sleep. I thank my close friends and family who've had their problems as well and was suffering as much as I did. We all helped each other out with our problems as we all had a hole in our hearts that could never be replace. I was quite thankful that none of us were suicidal because we all know that we would not abandon one another in the time of need and this is the time I needed everyone who knew my friend to pull along. During all this time we had managed to pull ourselves together and get a little stronger as days go by. I'm sure that there are other forum members who lost or knew someone who lost loved ones in a tragedy like this who knows what I'm talking about who can tell you similar stories. Just trying to type my last post without crying or feeling angry was a challange because if I did I would've forgoten what I would've typed next. I't would take me a long time to sort out and clean myself up. I do hope that justice will be found because it has been 12 hard years that many had to bear by just go on and do one hard thing and thats just to live. I pray that no one has to go through this ever but when TWA 800 went down and I saw the images of those teenagers crying over the 21 of their own die and the families not being able to get info on loved ones from TWA. I just sat there reliving the nightmare all over again. I had to take sleeping pills just to get a decent amount of sleep. At least TWA 800 families got help from the politicians such as Bill Clinton, NYC Mayor Rudy Guliani and Then NY Senator Alfonse Damato. We never got a letter of condolonse from then President George Bush or even then NYC mayor never coame to the terminal to help us out like serveral years later when Guliani publically condemend TWA for not releaseing the passenger manufast and further helping the families at that point and time. I've been though counseling along with my parents and a few of our close friends. Again; we are regaining our strength as time goes on. But it will be even better for those who lost loved ones that the trial has ended and those found resposible will be put away for good never to harm an innocent soul again. This may be harsh but god forbid that if anything like this happens again then Hopefully George Bush JR will have a little more backbone than his dad and help out people instead of ignoring this and saying "It's not our problem" As members of his representatives have said to us in the past. It's one thing to loose loved ones in a disaster like this but it's something else when your government won't help you though a terrible time when you needed them.

Tan flyer, sn330, Latin plane among all others I thank you for your condolenses and may god be with all of you and may nobody ever at any age in any country experince what we all had to go through.



"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24899 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1412 times:

One of my best mates was killed on the ground that night, and so I hope that whoever done it is caught and given the death sentence. The sooner that I know who done it, then I think I may be able to get completley over the loss of my mate. I was in Lockerbie at the time, but I was away from where it crashed. My heartfelt sympathies to everyone who had relatives on board and of course those who died on the a/c and on the ground.
Yours sadly,GKirk



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineWeexplorer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

My sincere condolences go to all family and friends of the victims of PA103.

It was one of those events where I can remember where I was when I heard about it. It beggars belief that this kind of event can happen in this day and age.

Let us also not forget the families and friends of the victims of the Air India disaster.


User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1396 times:

Gkirk; My conolenses to you about your friend. Unfortionatly those found guilty will not recieve the death penalty because of the deal UN leader Kofi Annan had made with that dictator and murderu COL Gadafi in order to get the suspects to a neutral third country to be tried by scottish judges. The minute a guilty verdic is read is the minute I can finally but the past behind me as well as my parents so we can get on with our lives. We (including close friends and my parents) went through a hellish 9 years when Gadafi wouldn't give up the suspects. Now that the Air India 182 bombers have been caught I hope Canada will not sentence then 25 years concurrently as they do with most of their violent offenders but rather give them life in prison with no of parole since Canada has no death penalty and from what I also heard does not extradite to countries with the death penalty like India. I hope it's not true on what I hear of Canada's mass murder laws being a joke and the Canadian gov only giving the max of 25 years concurently. This case should be an exception since over 300 died in a brutal way. Either give them life with no parole if CA still refuses to budge on the death penalty or execute the bastards. Either way; there should be no leniancey for those who bombed both Air India 182 and PA 103 after all the victims, families and friends never got leniancy when the bombs on both planes went off.


"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineAdvancedkid From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1386 times:

Hi there,
Virgin 340 you said in your first response, you
hoped the two suspects who are currently being
tried in the Netherlands would be found guilty.
Remember, they are still called suspects and still
not proven guilty yet, maybe even ways from it.
What if they were proven not guilty and that
someonelse was found responsible instead? Would
this dissapoint you? Would you just hate these two men regardless if they really did it or not? Did you
follow the trial update site(s)? One can't ever jump into
any conclusions unless there's some hard evidence.
And that is exactly what the court is doing.
To give you a general overview. Just a few months before the Pan Am 103 tragedy an Iranian Airbus 300
with about 280 people on board was "mistakenly" downed by an American warship monitoring aircraft and shipping activity in the Persian gulf. The reports said that the airliner was mistaken for a fighter-jet.
Back then the US was supporting Iraq's Saddam in
his hostility towards Iran.
Right after the Pan Am tragedy happened, all indications were that Iranian fanatics must have done it to retaliate for their fellow people who were killed in their Airbus tragedy. The US couldn't pinpoint an Iranian responsibility to avoid an obvious further complication of the matter. 1.The US had just come out of the Iran-contra affair. 2. The Iranian government have always been playing it safe, and would have invited the search for such suspects in their own country.
I would like to stop at this point and leave you to examine a/the Libyan aspect or factor in this tragedy.
I here would like to mention a book about Pan Am 103
written by a former CIA agent, Lester Coleman. The book is called "Trail of the Octopus" and is banned
in the US. It's been published in the UK. You can find
info about it on the net. Ask some book stores about it in the UK or Australia. It's very interesting to know
why this book is banned in the US and the author being
prohibited to leave the US to be a wittness at Camp Zeist.
I hope that gave you some more insight,, and hope you will post us some more about this yourself.
Kindest regards,
Advancedkid


User currently offlineAdvancedkid From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1364 times:

Hi there,
I would like to hear some opinions or
further thoughts about the Pan Am tragedy
12 years ago.
Kindest regards,
Advancedkid


User currently offlineVirginA340 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1353 times:

Advance kid; Where is the evidence stating that the Iranians had anything to do with this besides being published in a book full of lies? So far the evidence the prosecution has is pointing to the Lybians. Keep in mind advanced kid that Gadafi has tried stuff like this before which is why they've had sanctions. Why did Libya keep the two men from being tried? Why did Gadafi keep stonewalling the families with either little or no info at all? Is there any hard evidence that will shift blame from the two Lybians to the Iranians? Unless there is evidence to clear the suspects them I feel that they are guilty of the crime. Lester Colman is a fraud considering he has been indited for sworn affidavits that he made on the PA 103 case. Lester Coleman has also harrased two grieving parents named Susan and Dan Cohen who lost their only child on PA 103 near the anniversay of their only child's death. This says alot about Mr Coleman. Let's not forget that Lester Coleman has been convicted and served time in jail for writing bad checks and forgery charges. This also says alot about him as well. You can read the rest about Mr Coleman in a book published by Susan and Dan Cohen called PAN AM 103. These are the same nice people who had lost their only child on PA 103. Just like me the had also gone through their personal hell of loosing someone very close.


"FUIMUS"
User currently offlineGKirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24899 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1354 times:

The scene that night was horrible. Fire and dead bodies everywhere, firefighters and police and Paramedics taking the injured away. I hope I never see this again.
GKirk



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineWeexplorer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 1348 times:

GKirk

I hope NONE of us see this again!

Have a great Christmas


User currently offlineAirmale From Botswana, joined Sep 2004, 376 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1345 times:

may they rest in peace-Ameen.


.....up there with the best!
User currently offlineAdvancedkid From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1334 times:

HI there,
I understand your points but there are two
things to bear in mind here. We still cannot
draw conclusions or wish to draw a certain
conclusion yet. The fact is: the suspects
are still called suspects.
Secondly; the fact that Lester Coleman
was enjailed on some bad check charges
or that he misbehaved towards some people
doesn't proove his book is wrong or doesn't
contain facts. I would like to know why the
US is banning his book. We all need to know
who was responsible and by doing so we
have to know all the facts and collect solid
hard evidences and not to draw conclusions
based on our feelings. In short I mean we need
to avoid being one-sided.
You still didnt give answers to the questions
I raised before raising yours.
Kindest regards,
Advancedkid


User currently offlineRyanair From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (13 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1331 times:

I would simply like to pass my most genuine wishes, that one day all those effected by the bombing of PA103 can find some type of peace and although I don't want to seem patronising, offer the greatest sympathy. I think this post has shown all those effected is far wider than most people would realise. God bless to all those killed and all those who have been left behind.

This probably isnot an approapriate place to debate the possible ways that might have caused this most awful of events. For many of those touched by Lockerbie a guilty verdict will represent to them perhaps an ultimate betrayal, for others some justice served. For nobody will it replace their loss and I hope the world never forgets that fact.


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