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ILFC:customers Still Pushing For A350XWB Redesign  
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 36
Posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 12332 times:

Quote:
EADS unit Airbus is still under pressure from customers to redesign its A350 XWB model, Sueddeutsche Zeitung reported, citing Steve Udvar-Hazy, head of leasing firm ILFC.

'Teams of engineers are still working together to see what else can be changed,' Udvar-Hazy told the newspaper on the sidelines of an event in Seattle, WA, at which Airbus rival Boeing (nyse: BA - news - people )'s 787 model was being presented.

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/afx/2007/07/12/afx3906390.html

1. One has seriously to ask what this man actually wants.
2. Airbus & airlines are working together to improve the design - really astonishing news... I would be seriously surprised if this WASN´T the case. I´m firmly expecting every potential customer to voice their wishes and ideas for changes to improve the overall design - that´s what the Design Advisory Groups are for... absolutely nothing new.
3. Appears that the airline / aircraft business is getting more and more "press-release" based.

4. Basically nothing new from Udvar-Hazy except for some more hot air...


Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
119 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 12306 times:

 yawn 

Forbes obviously saw a lack of news / hits and decided to please their public / stir the pot a bit again with a yesterday (Sunday actually) quote.

Anyway design freeze still more then a year away, so it would be strange if nothing would be changed anymore.

Airbus has the advantage of looking at the 787 & take lessons learned from there.


User currently offlineAp305 From India, joined Jan 2000, 637 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 12044 times:

Mr.Hazy is one of the biggest buyers of Airbus aircraft,knows what he is talking about and I suspect he will get his way with the frame material issue.

Regards
ap305

[Edited 2007-07-12 11:58:55]

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 12025 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
Forbes obviously saw a lack of news / hits and decided to please their public / stir the pot a bit again with a yesterday (Sunday actually) quote.

I thought Mr. Udvar-Hazy mentioned this in an interview with James Wallace form the Seattle P-I and Forbes just picked up the story? If so, and Forbes picked it up, most likely you'll read about it again in other publications for the rest of the week. . . .
Many here simply can't accept the fact that Udvar-Hazy generally gets his way when dealing with the OEM's. In his own words, he sent the old A350 "to the cemetery". Does this latest version have a head stone waiting as well?



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3515 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 12006 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
In his own words, he sent the old A350 "to the cemetery".

By placing firm order for it?


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 11963 times:
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Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
In his own words, he sent the old A350 "to the cemetery".

I don't think that statement is anything of which to be proud.

I also find it odd that Qantas seems - from what I have read - to have a different view from Mr. Udvar Hazy. Certainly, Singapore has put their money where their mouth is, and others.

It is hard to work out what Mr. Udvar-Hazy is actually trying to achieve, and doing it so publicly. "Me Tarzan - Airbus hamburger"?

Because finally, why should Mr. Udvar-Hazy care? If he doesn't like the plane, he doesn't have to buy it. He can simply order a ton more 787's.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 11936 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 4):
By placing firm order for it?

No one is saying he's consistent here, just rich and influential.  Wink

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
Because finally, why should Mr. Udvar-Hazy care? If he doesn't like the plane, he doesn't have to buy it. He can simply order a ton more 787's.

There are some people who just can't resist making a sound byte. SUH is definitely one of them.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3402 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 11936 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
I also find it odd that Qantas seems - from what I have read - to have a different view from Mr. Udvar Hazy. Certainly, Singapore has put their money where their mouth is, and others.

That's right QF said that the original 787 / XNB contest was a pretty close run thing - in a way it was good that they lost and the XWB ended up bein created.

Didn't SUH write soemthing on a $100 bill saying he'd buy 50 of them if AB made a new fuse on it and JL hung that on his wall - maybe it's time SUH put his money where his mouth was!


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 11910 times:

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 7):
Didn't SUH write soemthing on a $100 bill saying he'd buy 50 of them if AB made a new fuse on it and JL hung that on his wall - maybe it's time SUH put his money where his mouth was!

Well, if you watch "Godfather II", that C-note can mean a couple of things. . . .  Wink



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMcMax From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 11884 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 5):
Because finally, why should Mr. Udvar-Hazy care? If he doesn't like the plane, he doesn't have to buy it. He can simply order a ton more 787's.

I would argue that Mr. Udvar-Hazy is looking at the long-term market. If Boeing is permitted to dominate this segment of the market, Boeing will have ultimate market-price control, and for ILFC, that means higher prices it would have to pay in the future for those planes. However, if Airbus can design (and ultimately, build) a credible aircraft which airlines want, it creates healthy competition for the market, thereby pressuring Boeing to keep their prices reasonable. For a healthy, competitive OEM market, a marginally-successful A350XWB which can attract some customers is better than a 787 monopoly for ILFC's purposes.

--Max



De minimis non curat lex tamen ego curao
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 11850 times:
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Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
There are some people who just can't resist making a sound byte. SUH is definitely one of them.

But his only sound bytes, these days and for some time, have been on the same subject. Or - the only ones I have seen.

I have puzzled about his motives since he first spat the dummy at Istat, and I am as puzzled now. If I could see what he might want to achieve then, I can't see it now.

Even his COO - Mr. Plueger - has appeared to be trying to douse the fires of this, or he did at Paris.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 11828 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
Many here simply can't accept the fact that Udvar-Hazy generally gets his way when dealing with the OEM's.

He said exactly the same a month ago, http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/3466303
& obviously repeated it at the 787 ceremony.

Last yr he was happy with the XWB: http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2887367

Also last year shooting at the A350 he also threw mud at the Boeing 747-8i and 737NG. For some reason this did't really reach the headlines http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2687608


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 11760 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):
He said exactly the same a month ag



Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):
Last yr he was happy with the XWB



Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):
Also last year shooting at the A350 he also threw mud at the Boeing 747-8i and 737NG.



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
No one is saying he's consistent here, just rich and influential. Wink



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11474 times:

The man is a power figure in the industry and evidently he is flexing his muscles so shareholders are Airbus listen.

The major problem is with the Airbus strategy and its not A350XWB fault per se. Airbus has no competitive offering for a long-haul lower capacity mid-size jet like the 787-8.

787-8 has been hugely successful and Leahey keeps kidding himself that Boeing has it wrong with the lower capacity 787 introduction compared to the A350.

This is a huge problem for second tier airlines who want range but do not need capacity...

Just my 2 cents!



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineUAL747-600 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 595 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 11315 times:

It'll be interesting to see what Airbus does. It will be a major embarrassment for them to cancel another version of the A350 or make a major change that will significantly alter EIS. I would think the cost of development funds (external) would be affected.

UAL747-600


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31419 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11250 times:
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Quoting McMax (Reply 9):
I would argue that Mr. Udvar-Hazy is looking at the long-term market. If Boeing is permitted to dominate this segment of the market, Boeing will have ultimate market-price control, and for ILFC, that means higher prices it would have to pay in the future for those planes. However, if Airbus can design (and ultimately, build) a credible aircraft which airlines want, it creates healthy competition for the market, thereby pressuring Boeing to keep their prices reasonable. For a healthy, competitive OEM market, a marginally-successful A350XWB which can attract some customers is better than a 787 monopoly for ILFC's purposes.

Well said.

I have heard airlines like Boeing's barrels because they offer lower maintenance and inspection. Airbus' panel approach will likely require more maintenance and inspection, but not in any significant way in the short to mid-term. Still, as a lessor, ILFC needs to take into account those costs over an airframe lifetime often much longer then their customer's lease terms. Since SQ seems to get rid of their planes every decade or so, it's a non-issue for them. They won't hold the planes long enough to see any real differences. Even an airline who hold the plane for two decades probably won't find maintenance and inspection costs to be a serious cost component sending them one way or the other.

But ILFC, GECAS, ALFACO and the others could conceivably be operating these planes for scores of years because of the longevity CFRP offers. And even when they are no longer "fit" for passenger service, that many of these firms also have freighter leasing arms means they could turn them into "787BCFs" or "A350ACFs" down the road and keep on operating them. So over four decades, the maintenance and inspection costs might very well become a serious cost component...

So Mr. Udvar-Hazy may be thinking that, over four decades, an A350 will cost him a noticeable (even if not necessarily an appreciable) amount more to operate than a 787 because of the differences in how they are assembled. That means higher minimum rents for the A350 which could hurt ILFC's ability to place the plane or require they accept less then desired profits due to lowering prices or having to underwrite some of the maintenance and inspection costs.


User currently offlineJustloveplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1065 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11236 times:

'Emirates and us are just the only ones who spoke up publicly,' Udvar-Hazy said.

'But many other airlines are unhappy with (Airbus's) plans, and are pushing Airbus to make changes.' SUH in the Forbes article

This sounds more like what SUH said at Paris before he met with Gallois. I wonder if Forbes is being creative here; using his rather bland comment about engineers still working on the plane - big surprise - and rehashing the Early Paris comments again. Forbes does not have the best history of communicating when it comes to Airbus/Boeing, they tend to be quite superficial in their reporting.

SUH could just be using the media to push for who knows what...same ol, same ol....


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11149 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 13):
The major problem is with the Airbus strategy and its not A350XWB fault per se. Airbus has no competitive offering for a long-haul lower capacity mid-size jet like the 787-8.



Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 13):
This is a huge problem for second tier airlines who want range but do not need capacity...

I think the market doesn't need all this range for the majority of flights. Light and efficient up to 250 seats < 4000nm seems an gab for both Boeing and Airbus. I think the 787 / 783 aren't covering this 767/A300/A310/757 market either. Maybe Airbe will come up with a mussled up A320,5 & A321,5.. http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2724857

Another sideline; 5 years ago I thought Airbus & Boeing would go for this market.
However it would be another 9 months before Boeing was forced to shelve the Sonic Cruiser & choose the Yellow Stone / 7e7 route, Airbus was napping. http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/773211


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11107 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
Does this latest version have a head stone waiting as well?

Far from it. There are lots of things customers often want in an aircraft that makes it special for them, but never really make it into the design. These are more of a wish list than anything else.

More to the point: I thought that the design was frozen?



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineAminobwana From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11083 times:

AEROFAN comments and ask a very pertinent question, under a parallel topic which probably will be deleted:::

Quote:
]"I really don't understand this. This is like bizarro world. In the June 19th edition of Aviation Daily, we have that Parker guy from US saying that the new version of the A350 is fantastic. We also have Qatar and several airlines ordering the plane

Yet here we have a lessor and one of A major customers saying that the product is still not sophisticated enough and they want additional changes. And some people were scared to speak up.

So what's going on? Seems to me that some people who are running some airlines should be put out to pasture if they are hell bent on ordering a product that doesn't meet their requirements. Secondly, why are others being cowed into keeping silent. You would think A is the only game in town"

]

QR is not so enthusiastic and complains publicly regarding the lack of information by Airbus, aside issuing a parallel order for the B787

Nevertheless, it is quite understandable that airlines managers ordering or intending to order (as USAir) wish to explain to their shareholders or owners the technical benefits of spending these billions, whichever the reasons of the purchase may have been.

IF (and this being a capital one) they have ensured that the contract contains the needed safeguards as penalties and eventual walk-away conditions, and the reasons as pricing, or the desire not to allow the twin aisle business develop to a virtual monopoly, are legitime - even if not purely technical - , there is no reason to put these managers "out to pasture", as you write.

aminobwana


User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 36
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11056 times:

Quoting Aminobwana (Reply 22):
QR is not so enthusiastic and complains publicly regarding the lack of information by Airbus, aside issuing a parallel order for the B787

Incorrect statement. The B787 order was placed as an UFO BEFORE the A350 firm order was signed.



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineAminobwana From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11042 times:

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 24):
QR is not so enthusiastic and complains publicly regarding the lack of information by Airbus, aside issuing a parallel order for the B787

Incorrect statement. The B787 order was placed as an UFO BEFORE the A350 firm order was signed

Did I mention the timing ??

aminobwana


User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11042 times:

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Thread starter):
4. Basically nothing new from Udvar-Hazy except for some more hot air...

Hot air is what is you hear on A.net. When SUH speaks, it is cold hard cash.
Clearly, he has not kissed and made up with Airbus over the A350 XWB. And given QR grumblings, I would expect that we have not seen the definitive version of the XWB. While I expect that the panels will be retained, the LI-AL frame will go and be replaced by composite. SUH is clearly well informed about the short comings of the airframe.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 18):
I think the market doesn't need all this range for the majority of flights. Light and efficient up to 250 seats < 4000nm seems an gab for both Boeing and Airbus. I think the 787 / 783 aren't covering this 767/A300/A310/757 market either. Maybe Airbe will come up with a mussled up A320,5 & A321,5..

While I agree that very few airlines need 8,000 NM range, they want it just in case. Do not expect Boeing or Airbus to build new aircraft that will "only go" 5000 NM. The 787-3 is an exception because it is what the Japanese wanted for their market, and I doubt many will sell anywhere else. They only people interested in short range aircraft are the regionals, and even they are beginning to look at international routes.


User currently offlineAminobwana From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11029 times:

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 24):
QR is not so enthusiastic and complains publicly regarding the lack of information by Airbus, aside issuing a parallel order for the B787

Incorrect statement. The B787 order was placed as an UFO BEFORE the A350 firm order was signed

Did I mention the timing ??

aminobwana


User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 11015 times:

Steven F Udvar-Hazy, refugee from the 1956 Hungarian uprising ,has apparently some issues with Airbus as a European Company .
I can see some form of inherent hatred against anything that is not American,since America is the country who took the "refugee" Hazy when he got out of the Hungarian uprising.To me it looks rather a psychological-psysical issue than a technical.
Let's face it-he wants a 787 clone but just bigger and better.Ultimately those companies who find the A350 a great tool to generate money will buy it -with or without Hasy ! The market dynamics will work in favour of the A350.Nobody denies the man a deep understanding of aircraft-technology -he 's a big spender on aircraft.But there are moments were the engineers who bred the machines have a better understanding of what is commercially viable and salable.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
25 Sabenapilot : What we have here is just another of those warmed over reports in which some old comments are put together to help substantiate a single and rather va
26 Post contains images MD-90 : A barrel fuselage.
27 Clickhappy : How the hell did a thread about a news story from Forbes about the A350 turn into a 747 and/or 787 bash? Unbelievable. The same people who complain ov
28 Stitch : You sum up the situation well, Sabenapilot. All new aircraft programs go through their "rationalization" stage where the various customers put forward
29 Keesje : A new dedicated up to 250 seat /< 5000nm A300/767 sized aircraft would have an OEW of ~ 180k lb. (10% lighter then the seventies A300). The 783 weigh
30 Aminobwana : Sorry to doubt that !. A person who hates European because what the communist Soviets did to his EUROPEAN country and to him 50 years ago must have a
31 Post contains images Danny : Yes unbelievable, normally we only bash Airbus Leahy is spot on with his comments on size of 787-8. It was design based on American market as a repla
32 Post contains links USAF336TFS : Quoting UAL747-600 (Reply 14): It'll be interesting to see what Airbus does. It will be a major embarrassment for them to cancel another version of th
33 Aminobwana : Well, not exactly the same. SUH is telling (true or not, this is what many saying, and we must assume that many of his potential customers tell him s
34 Poitin : I seriously doubt it. I have spent too much time studying battery technology not to see the XWB as nothing more than the world's largest flashlight b
35 Post contains images Aerofan : Aminobwana, you were right it was deleted. and I didn't even know it until another poster pointed it out to me. So much for courtesy... Quoting USAF33
36 USAF336TFS : If I'm not mistaken, that's why we're on version 4 or 5 of the A350 design....
37 Poitin : Both statements are true. It will be interesting to see how Airbus resolves this dilemma. My guess is they will change the airframe, but that's becau
38 Clickhappy : Really? SUH is anti-European? You should be careful, because one could just as easily say: Airbus, as a French/German company, is anti-Semitic, and t
39 Aminobwana : Obviously: but at this moment, Airbus must address its today problems, even if the solution could backfire in the future, so I assume that USAF336TFS
40 Danny : Austrian lost their mind and they don't know what they are doing. For BA 767 is marginal in transatlantic flying where 777 is a workhorse. Certainly
41 Aerofan : thought i read somewhere that A has already frozen the design of the 350. is this not the case then? well, it certainly will be interesting to see how
42 Justloveplanes : Interesting comment, could you explain to the electrically challenged such as myself?
43 Post contains images Flysherwood : I don't think Airbus wants that to happen.
44 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..is that why he's one of Airbus largest customers? ...sure, that's why the B788 is outselling the B789 by a factor of > 2:1 even with international
45 Stitch : I think both airlines will shoot for a 757-300-sized narrowbody with 4500-5000nm range at the top end of their 737RS/A320RS programs. Carriers around
46 Post contains images Flysherwood : Where in the heck is that coming from Beaucaire? The last time I checked, Mr. Hazy has bought several A320 family, A330/340 family and A380, has he n
47 BigJKU : The importance of the 787-8 is not really what you are looking at. There are 767's and 200 models of the A330 and A340 in service with many airlines
48 Flysherwood : Where are ANA and JAL from?
49 Danny : But the aviation market worldwide is growing fast therefore many carriers do want move up. Obviously that is not the case in the US. If you ignore th
50 Post contains images Flysherwood : Beaucaire's comment has got to be the most ridiculous thing that I have ever read on A.net!
51 Clickhappy : That is a worn out argument. Not all markets grow. Some shrink, some fragment, some stay the same, some grow. But they haven't been offered that, hav
52 Post contains links Stitch : U.S. Passenger-Miles by air have grown every year since 1960 with the exception of two small dips in 1991 and 2001-2002, both caused by extraordinary
53 Revelation : Yes, he hates Airbus so much, his company is their largest customer!
54 BigJKU : Actually it is not me ignoring the facts it is you. You say that the 787-8 is designed for the American market and not for the rest of the world. The
55 Ap305 : The engineers at Airbus don't sign checks for hundreds of aircraft.If Mr.Hazy wants composite frames with the panels then I think Airbus should let h
56 DL021 : Seriously......it's amazing when the armchair CEOs of A'net vilify one of the worlds great aviation entrepreneurs....who has achieved more success th
57 Stitch : All indications from both parties (Airbus and SQ) at Paris was that order is now signed, sealed and official. Airbus has said "final freeze" is Octob
58 AndesSMF : He's one of Airbus AND Boeing's biggest customers. ILFC has the biggest fleet of airplanes in the world. And they do more than just lease planes. ILF
59 Ikramerica : Well, hundreds of 788s have been sold, and barely any to USA carriers so far... CO actually now has 8 788 and 17 789 on order. They are one of the fe
60 DL021 : The US majors are stocked up with relatively new 75 and 76 products and don't need to immediately replace the entire fleet. You've seen the MD-11s an
61 Bringiton : The 787-8 Is (IIRC) the second Highest selling single widebody model for boeing ( and i believe for any widebody irrespective of manuf.) of all time -
62 PennStation : So who issued a press release? It sounds to me that it was a reporter doing his job: reporting. He asked a question, Udvar-Hazy answered. There's a b
63 Mariner : I belive they firmed at Paris. It was after that signing that Mr. Aboulafia raised the bar on the A350 yet again. Is that still true after the Paris
64 AndesSMF : This is the quote from SUH: 'Teams of engineers are still working together to see what else can be changed,' There is no doubt that all the iteration
65 Aerofan : quoting, Mariner It is my understanding that the A350XWB is not a competitor for the present versions of the 787. I could be wrong. So I still find it
66 Mariner : Yes, I had read that. I have studied Mr. Udvar-Hazy and all his public statements quite hard since Istat. And in that statement, I suspect, lies the
67 AndesSMF : Because he knows he has power, and is using it accordingly.
68 Aminobwana : Directly related with the redisign and as consequence the timing of the A350 deliveries, is what BOEING will do during the years before the first EIS
69 Mariner : t Ahhh, that's a different issue. I agree with that statement, or 90% of it. I am interested that he feels the need to use it - in public. mariner
70 Aminobwana : These statements, independent if right or wrong, are "convenient" for the issuer ! Mr. Dixon is saying what he says to pressure Boeing to develp the
71 UAL747-600 : Airbus and their supporters on this forum routinely make that claim. However, I think it's safe to say that the A350-800 competes directly against th
72 Mariner : Thank you, yes, I am aware of that. However, I am not privy to each participants true motives - the most can do is make educated guesses - and I have
73 RedFlyer : Neither have ordered the XWB as of yet. So until they do, and in particular in spite of what Mr. Dixon said, it could be viewed that the XWB is not y
74 Post contains links Helvknight : It is firm. http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/en_U...any_info/press_release/NE_3007.jsp It was posted on the site but the thread got deleted after some
75 Mariner : I have no idea. It is not an area that interests me. But I have read many statements here and elsewhere - by both Boeing and Airbus supporters - to s
76 EA772LR : Yes, but they (Airbus) are certainly targeting the 777. Both the 358 and 359 are respectively larger than the 789 and 7810. They'll probably be more
77 MotorHussy : So if SUH could have his way, what way would it be? What changes would he make to the XWB? What are his key areas of concern? * CFRP Panels. * Lack of
78 Olle : Regarding the efficient numbers: Is the A350 15% more efficient to 777-300 ER? B787 20% more efficient compared to B767 or A330? The leader of the B78
79 MIT787 : Exactly
80 BigJKU : Probably not much bigger, though there is some growth in the wing if I recall correctly. Then again if they invest in the wing and other upgrades to
81 MIT787 : I just learned that LAN Chile has signed up for up to 32 787s. Airbus needs to rethink the design or the size of the A350. Be it for me to question a
82 Post contains images Ikramerica : Can't be. These are a new technology innovation that is superior to the 787 design. There's a whole thread about that... Kidding aside, I am sure he
83 MotorHussy : Yes, but what else? There must be more to his ongoing media groans than this. Show us your wish-list Steven! Regards MH
84 Ikramerica : It might be a bigger deal than some on a.net will admit. Especially the mating of materials aspect when dealing with long term fatigue and corrosion.
85 Poitin : I am sure he is playing hardball on the warranty and delivery of the aircraft. Steve is a business man. He is only interested in the numbers working,
86 Ikramerica : I think we agree here. He likely has customers who have no need for the A350-1000, or already lease 77Ws, and want GE for the A358/359. From the ILFC
87 Aminobwana : The problem is more complex then delivery and warranty. If SUH believes that the economic life for the B787 is 20 years with barrels and for the A350
88 MotorHussy : What has made him happier about the way the CFRP on a 787 is bonded to the largely aluminium (aluminum in American) frame? The different rates of exp
89 BigJKU : I would suspect it is the fact that the 787 does not have an aluminum frame.
90 Post contains links Wsp : Well JL stated that all orders are with firm RR contracts and there are no clauses that would allow later switches to GE. http://blog.seattlepi.nwsou
91 Justloveplanes : I think if you see if from SUH's point of view, we will fill demand with available hardware no matter what it is. His business model product is finan
92 MotorHussy : Thank you for a sensible and well informed answer as opposed to the ignorant retort previously. Is there no integral bonding between this aluminum an
93 Aminobwana : As you can see from the reader reaction to the article you posted, JL staements are not taken very seriously. aminobwama
94 XT6Wagon : The problem with that is Airbus has used the leasing companies as an effective tool to get their frames into the hands of smaller airlines over Boein
95 WingedMigrator : Your phrase "an aluminum frame" suggests that you are confused about terminology. It's not like the frame on a pickup truck. A frame in fuselage parl
96 Post contains links Revelation : So, 787 stringers = CFRP, frames = CFRP or TI A350 stringers = CFRP, frames = Al Mr UH is presumably unhappy because Al has issues with fatigue and co
97 Post contains images Lumberton : So what are EADS' choices in dealing with their largest customer? 1. Tell him to take a hike and write-off his business? 2. Call his "bluff" & tell hi
98 BigJKU : No, I know what the frames of the airplane are. I was just responding in the terminology used by the poster who claimed the 787 had an aluminum frame
99 Revelation : I doubt changing from Al frames to CFRP frames would be a redesign, but moving from shells to barrels would be. I think we're making too much of his
100 Poitin : Is there any real choice? SUH is undoubtedly causing others to worry about the A350, and at this point it is the cheapest solution. I suspect Steve a
101 Post contains images Astuteman : For me, this where the "hot air" stems from. What about it? And again. If these top-class engineers can't figure out a way to control and manage a "d
102 BigJKU : Again, the 787 does not have an aluminum frame so the problem is pretty much non-existent from a corrosion standpoint. Titanium will expand different
103 Post contains images Flysherwood : C'mon now, SUH is going to order the A350 no matter what, according to many here on A.net!
104 Aminobwana : Have you considered my reply 87 above ?? There are several issues: - The risk of non compliance with delivery date, especially important for a leasin
105 Post contains links Poitin : You're a sea faring man -- go get a glass of salty water (sweat would do), some graphite rod, and a piece of aluminum. Wire the graphite and aluminum
106 Poitin : The differential expansion of metal and CFRP can be easily controlled by proper design and the type of fasteners used, which is what both Airbus and
107 NAV20 : I think that is a very important point. Boeing saw this coming...........
108 Slider : I sure do...he's being the canary in the mine shaft, providing his due diligence to what he obviously still feels is a substandard product. Amen! And
109 Post contains images Astuteman : Which is a gross over-simplification It has predominantly CFRP frames But it DOES have a goodly number of aluminium frames too. Does the quantity mak
110 Post contains images Justloveplanes : I stand corrected...
111 Aminobwana : This is not only important for titanium, but generally for components of the A350 It is now clearly visible that orders for the B787 will reach 1000
112 Poitin : You were the one who started it with "For me, this where the "hot air" stems from." If you want to throw rocks, do not live in a glass house and be s
113 Post contains images Flying-Tiger : And you have run a busines according to yourself? I guess you have no real idea about the industrial landscape in Europe at all For example, Rolls-Ro
114 Post contains links Wsp : You asked for info on that topic, I provided. There is no need to insult my intellect by referring to the trolls that flood Wallace's reader's commen
115 XT6Wagon : Have you ever ordered something that had to be manufactured, much less been in a major program like the 787/A350? Boeing was signing contracts for ra
116 Wsp : I am sure the linked article in my previous post adequately addresses your concerns. Boeing is running out of fasteners now, we can hope that Airbus
117 Aminobwana : It seems that I really lost contact to the new developments. I my German times, such kind of totally unnecessary comment would not have been made in
118 Astuteman : No. What you did was quote a 10-year-old's experiment to someone who's been dealing with marine corrosion issues for decades. That's patronising. My
119 Ikramerica : Titanium is one of the most abundant minerals on earth, it's the process of transforming the Ti you find all over the place into a form that is usable
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