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Does KLM Need New Planes?  
User currently offlineMeta From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 337 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 16515 times:

I was wondering if KLM is planning on buying any of the new planes such as 787, 747-8, A380, or A350 for their fleet. Don't they need to replace their old 747's and MD-11's? I know that they are receiving some 777-300ER's early next year, but besides that do they need any new planes. If so, which do you guys think KLM will add to their fleet. I checked through the forums and couldn't find an answer. I am sorry if somebody else already posted this.

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHeavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 798 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 16494 times:

G'day

This may answer your question

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKL1288292320070712?rpc=44

Cheers

Peter



"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 16483 times:

This has been discussed quite often recently. The MD11's will most likely stay untill 2012-2015, and the 77W's are for expansion. The early 744's will need replacement soon, most likely with more 77W's. The MD11's will probably be replaced by the 772 and a332 as KLM management stated they do not want to add another type for the time being (a350/787). But that can change of course. At the Paris airshow there was an order revealed for 73G's to replace the ageing 733's. They had also ordered some 738's a while ago for 733/734 replacement. KLM fleet renewal is an ongoing issue, as with most large airlines.


L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently onlineAlitaliaMD11 From Spain, joined Dec 2003, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 16483 times:

Quoting Meta (Thread starter):
I was wondering if KLM is planning on buying any of the new planes such as 787, 747-8, A380, or A350 for their fleet. Don't they need to replace their old 747's and MD-11's? I know that they are receiving some 777-300ER's early next year, but besides that do they need any new planes. If so, which do you guys think KLM will add to their fleet. I checked through the forums and couldn't find an answer. I am sorry if somebody else already posted thi

The A330-200 was ordered to replace the 767-300 and some of the MD-11 fleet and the 777-200 was also ordered to replace some of the MD-11 fleet. I could see more 777-300ER orders in the future to start replacing older 747-400s like the Combi aircraft.

Considering Air France-KLM operate both Airbus and Boeing I could see them possibly going for both the 787 and the A350 as well as possibly the 747-800. Air France has ordered the A380 but I don't see KLM following.



No Vueling No Party
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 16422 times:

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 3):
as well as possibly the 747-800. Air France has ordered the A380 but I don't see KLM following.

KLM will order neither. They will replace the pax 744's with 77W's and maybe in the future with Y3/a3510. They only have 5 full pax 744's and that's too few to order a different aircraft type for. Unless they can mix and match maintenence and usage with the AF examples, which is not likely in the near future IMHO, but later on... who knows...



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5204 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 16395 times:

And what will happen with the other 'older' 737's KL has? And what about the F70's and F100's?


KL911


User currently offlineKL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 776 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 16354 times:

Quoting Meta (Thread starter):
I was wondering if KLM is planning on buying any of the new planes such as 787, 747-8, A380, or A350 for their fleet. Don't they need to replace their old 747's and MD-11's? I know that they are receiving some 777-300ER's early next year, but besides that do they need any new planes. If so, which do you guys think KLM will add to their fleet. I checked through the forums and couldn't find an answer. I am sorry if somebody else already posted this.

I think KLM just finished a major fleet renovation with the introduction of 15 B772 and 9 A332 (one more to come). KLM has stated that the 747-400s will serve 25 years in the fleet, and I guess as well the MD11, that means replacement for both types around 2015.


User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4703 posts, RR: 50
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 16324 times:

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 3):
I could see more 777-300ER orders in the future to start replacing older 747-400s like the Combi aircraft.

With no 77W combi version available I don't think so!



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlineMeta From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 337 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 16310 times:

Quoting KL577 (Reply 6):
the 747-400s will serve 25 years in the fleet, and I guess as well the MD11

How old are the MD-11's now?


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6824 posts, RR: 77
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 16260 times:

Quoting Meta (Reply 8):
How old are the MD-11's now?

The average fleet age is 12.4 years.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineFlyTUITravel From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 723 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 16260 times:

Quoting Meta (Reply 8):
How old are the MD-11's now?

The oldest one, PH-KCA is 14, whilst the youngest, PH-KCK is just 10 so quite young really, younger than some of the 744s I beleive.


FLYTUITRAVEL.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 16195 times:

KLM has a lot of open options for the A330 and 777 as well & will add new ones if required.

The F70/F100 is an issue. During the last 10 yrs many have been added from different airlines.

There are a lot of differences between individual aircraft, increasing costs & complexity.

Dispatch reliability has been an issue in recent times

Embraer was at Schiphol recently with an E190 but what I understand it failed to impress.

Obviously they want something better, but there isn't much available in the 80-130 seat segment..


Source: http://www.kaktusdigital.com/images/large/klm_lrj_02.jpg


User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5204 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 16132 times:

KLM has 27 x 737-300/400's which are expensive in fuel and maintenance, why don't they order the 737-700 or the A319/320 for those 27 aircrafts as replacements? Or lease them, I'm sure it will be cheaper in the long run.



KL911


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 16093 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 12):
why don't they order the 737-700 or the



Quoting Kappel (Reply 2):
At the Paris airshow there was an order revealed for 73G's to replace the ageing 733's. They had also ordered some 738's a while ago for 733/734 replacement



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3171 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 16079 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 12):
why don't they order the 737-700 or the A319/320 for those 27 aircrafts as replacements?

They have ordered 7 + 7 options for the 737-700 at Le Bourget, as a first phase replacement of the 737-300.

Quoting JRadier (Reply 7):
With no 77W combi version available I don't think so!

Why not? As no more new combi aircraft are produced, there is no direct replacement for the 747-400 combi, but they do need to be replaced anyhow. So they need to find something else, that will have different specifications. I see the 747-400 combi's being replaced by 772ERs and 773ERs, also as the 773ER has more cargo space.

I always wonder why so many people think that every airline wants to replace aircraft by a newer aircraft with exactly the same seat count or cargo capacity. As an airline, you always have a limited choice in aircaft you can buy, and they always had. You cannot say whether the 74M for KLM is the perfect fit - maybe they are well able to sell some 20 more seats, or maybe they bargain the last 20 seats and have a better fit with a smaller aircraft.

We also saw KLM replacing 763s with 772s on some routes, including IAD. Apparantly, he 763 was actually too small for the route.


User currently offlineMEACEDAR From Lebanon, joined Oct 2006, 753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 16041 times:

I think the MD-11's need to go. I think they should replace the rest of the MD-11's with the A332/3. The old 747s need to be replaced with some 773ERS and possibly add some 748s. I doubt that they are going for the A380. If they are maybe just 2 or 3, but not untill 2010-2012.

My 2 cents.


User currently offlineKL577 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2006, 776 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 15960 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 14):
I always wonder why so many people think that every airline wants to replace aircraft by a newer aircraft with exactly the same seat count or cargo capacity. As an airline, you always have a limited choice in aircaft you can buy, and they always had. You cannot say whether the 74M for KLM is the perfect fit - maybe they are well able to sell some 20 more seats, or maybe they bargain the last 20 seats and have a better fit with a smaller aircraft.

And since AMS is slot restricted with relatively little room for growth with respect to the number of flights, KLM might want to grow more in capacity per flight.

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 15):
I think the MD-11's need to go. I think they should replace the rest of the MD-11's with the A332/3.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the A333 has a smaller range then an MD11. An A332 might fly the same destinations as MD11s currently do, but with less passengers. I think an Airbus A350-800 or B787-9 is a better replacement for the MD11


User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5204 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 15934 times:

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 15):
I think the MD-11's need to go. I think they should replace the rest of the MD-11's with the A332/3. The old 747s need to be replaced with some 773ERS and possibly add some 748s. I doubt that they are going for the A380. If they are maybe just 2 or 3, but not untill 2010-2012.

The A380 will fit perfectly for flights to the Dutch Antilles and PBM but I can't think of an other route that could fill an A380.


User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 15864 times:

With AF ordering the A380, it wouldn't make sense for KLM to order the A380. AF owns KLM and the A380 routes would be codeshared through KLM.

The 747-8 may fit into KLMs market, but the 77W is the better option for replacing their 744s.



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4703 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 15807 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 14):

I always wonder why so many people think that every airline wants to replace aircraft by a newer aircraft with exactly the same seat count or cargo capacity. As an airline, you always have a limited choice in aircaft you can buy, and they always had. You cannot say whether the 74M for KLM is the perfect fit - maybe they are well able to sell some 20 more seats, or maybe they bargain the last 20 seats and have a better fit with a smaller aircraft.

because the Cargo on the maindeck is what makes the money with the 744 Combis. With a 77W being a lot larger in seatcount, and the 772 not carrying that amount of cargo, I don't see why they should replace them straight away?



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offline747fan From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1187 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 15779 times:

Quoting Meta (Reply 8):
How old are the MD-11's now?

www.airfleets.net/floteccie/KLM-active-md11.htm
They're middle-aged by aircraft standards, definitely not in need of replacing (although they're less efficient than the T7's, 3 engines compared to 2). The oldest ones were delivered in 1993 (14 years old), the newest one in 1997 (10 years old); one of them (PH-KCI) is owned by ILFC and flew with VASP for a few years, but KLM got it new in '95. Their oldest pax 744's were delivered in 1989, making them some of the older -400's around, but the 744's are relatively spread out in terms of age with their newest one being delivered in 2002. There are 25 pax 744's and and 3 -400ERF's that were delivered in '03 and '04.They'll (the pax birds) probably be gone within the next 5-7 years and be replaced by more 773's rather than a new fleet type. Theoretically, the MD11's could be kept for at least another 10 years as their oldest ones will hit 25 years in 2018; but they'll probably be gone before then. They aren't as nice on the inside as the 777's and lack PTV's in coach.

View Large View Medium
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Photo © David Larenas Herdoiza



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Photo © Marlo Plate - Iberian Spotters



User currently offlineMIgAiR54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 15734 times:

i bet that we will see KLM operating both 350 and 787, currently they are operating 4 different types of widebodies, thats amazing for spotters, but for pilots, crews, dispatchers................ it has to be awful, lot of different types of everything.

KLM will reduce this fleet into 2 type 777 and 330 and in the future 787 and 350.

with only 4 passenger B747 i can see them ordering more 773, and for the combi, What´s exactly the configuration??

Do you think that a A380 combi could be real??


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4507 posts, RR: 72
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 15695 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 14):
We also saw KLM replacing 763s with 772s on some routes, including IAD. Apparantly, he 763 was actually too small for the route.

Actually, the B772 replaced the A332 to IAD, after the A332 replaced the B763 earlier. The B772 is doing fine to IAD right now, but it is feared that it will be a bit of overkill in the winter season. As such, KLM will send the MD11 to IAD next winter during the bottom season January - March.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 17):
The A380 will fit perfectly for flights to the Dutch Antilles and PBM but I can't think of an other route that could fill an A380.

The Dutch Antillean sectors have been served with the smaller MD11s lately, because of stiff competition on the routes, so you can leave those away. PBM is a high volume destination but tends to be very seasonal, so they wouldn't need an A380 for that either. Other high volume routes for KLM include NBO (year round because of the KQ connection), SFO (in summer), DEL (in winter), YYZ, GRU and KIX. Neither of those warrant the presence of the A380 though.

Quoting 747fan (Reply 20):
There are 25 pax 744's

There are just 22 pax 744s in the KLM fleet, 17 combi's and 5 full passenger versions. One of the combi's is sometimes used in full passenger configuration, although that is not currently the case.


User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3171 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 15695 times:

Quoting JRadier (Reply 19):
I don't see why they should replace them straight away?

Me neither  Smile The MD-11s and the Fokkers are the first to be replaced. KLM have indicated before that they will shift towards full-freighters for outsized cargo, when the combi's will be leaving the fleet.


User currently offlineDeltaDAWG From United States of America, joined May 2006, 776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 15677 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):
Embraer was at Schiphol recently with an E190 but what I understand it failed to impress.

Obviously they want something better, but there isn't much available in the 80-130 seat segment..

Perhaps Bombardier should visit Schiphol! KLM and NW together could be the launch customers for the C-Series. I saw a thread earlier in the week about NW being interested in the C-Series as a possible replacement for their DC-9's. Perhaps KLM could go in with NW to replace their F70/100's?

Of course, this is predicated on Bombardier actually launching a C-Series but the size would be just about right, so it seems.



GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
25 KL577 : But multiple types add flexibility to optimizing your route structure, i.e. matching demand more accurately with supply.
26 Post contains links and images Lamedianaranja : New B737 have been ordered, see replies above, and this one is very new too: View Large View MediumPhoto © Anders Olsen
27 Meta : What exactly is that? I think I might have seen it before, but i forgot.
28 EA772LR : Now that's a beautiful aircraft Keesje. Obviously a concept, but who designed it?? And where'd you find it??
29 Post contains images FlyDeltaJets87 : Well, they are a partner with NW, so that might explain a lot. As for a serious response to your question, as other's have pointed out, KLM's fleet i
30 TrijetsRMissed : KL's fleet is not in dyer need of complete overhaul. The fleet is fairly modern, even if some aircraft are 10-15 years old. I for one would like to se
31 Trinxat : Indeed the 744s look as if they were much older, they are really worn, with sometimes broken seats, armrests, etc. On sectors like AMS-JFK where they
32 Post contains images LifelinerOne : There were some small blurbs the last days around KLM and it's fleet, coming from official and unofficial sources: *AF-KLM is going to merge it's carg
33 HB-IWC : The first two B77Ws which will arrive in February and March next year will be deployed to YYZ, DXB, GRU and KIX, not exactly KLM's leisure destinatio
34 Kappel : Not for long. They recently received a cabin update, with the AVOD ready to be installed. I think HB-IWC can give more info on when exactly, IIRC aft
35 Post contains links Keesje : I melted together some research concepts, Henry Lam http://www.kaktusdigital.com/ who has a graphics studio down under created a great artist impress
36 Post contains images Plunaaircanada : off-topic but important everyone is talking how airlines are replacing the 747 but i havent been on one before, I want to lol which route should I fly
37 JRowson : I recently flew AMS-SXM on the MD11 and both ways the aircraft we flew on had received the interior update with new seating and config changes. There
38 JRadier : Negative, the last few were expansion, but the first bunch were 743 (742SUD) replacements
39 PietPiloot : As for Cityhopper, we will be flying the Fokker 70/100 till 2013. Until then the oldest 15 Fokker 100s will leave the fleet and will be replaced by th
40 Airbuster : For KLC it will be the E-190 replacing the F100. First batch of 10 will start to be introduced starting in October 2008, the first aicraft planned to
41 Post contains images 747fan : Nice - glad to see KLM (along w/ Finnair) is keen on operating pax MD11's! I assume the 744's won't get the cabin update w/ AVOD as the 773's will re
42 JRadier : I've missed the press release for this one!
43 Heathrow : i think the cityhopper fokkers are the biggest problem right now. From my knowledge, these aircraft are unreliable, and they are quite old. I can see
44 Kappel : The 744's will indeed not receive the AVOD, but not because of replacement. The 77W's that have been ordered are for expansion, not replacement. The
45 Airbuster : That's correct as it is not official outside of the KLC office yet. The annoucement will be in august.
46 Post contains images Kappel : I better get on the F70/F100 quick then, before they are gone. Time for a quick trip to Geneva or Zurich, perhaps Vienna. What punishment!!
47 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : I recently flew the "Hong Kong" aircraft, which is one of the older KL 74M's delivered in 1990 from ORD-AMS. The cabin was in very good condition and
48 Viscount724 : AMS-TLL is probably one of the longest (797 naut. mi.).
49 Airbuster : That's the plan yes: F100-->E-190 and F50/F70--> a ATR/Dash 8 turboprop design VIE is only during the summer season and GVA and ZRH are nicer flights
50 Kappel : Why do you say that? They will have the same capacity, and the F70 routes are not very long sectors. IMHO it would be a wise choice, as the props are
51 Trinxat : Most probably, although it could have been that you were just lucky. Last time I flew them, it was in may: on the outbound run, the seat would reclin
52 Morvious : So, can we finaly end the Rekkof thing then? Without KLM I don't see them comming back. Good to see a new jet is entering KLM's fleet, although the F
53 KL911 : You're nuts... KL will never go for the E-190. It's been stated 10 times in internal memo's that it's just to small to comfortably accomadate the tal
54 JRadier : Hmmm: -tall: check, 1,98m -western european: check, dutch -man: check (won't elaborate for everyones sake) I've been in a E-170 (same fuselage crosse
55 Aerokiwi : Strange logic then. How do they get away with their appalling seat pitch on the 744s then?
56 Airbuster : If you want to call me nuts that's fine...a would enjoy a more mature reaction and explanation of your argument about tall western european man. How
57 Post contains links AMSSFO : KLC will receive all five F70 from Regional in the near future as announced last May. So they will keep the F70 for a few more years. They also state
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