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Delta & United Nearly Collide In Ft. Lauderdale  
User currently offlineSkuertz From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 7 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8512 times:

How often do things like this happen, a runway incursion?

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/...es/2007/07/12/0712biznearmiss.html

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8325 times:

Runway incursions aren't all that uncommon, however, 100 feet is pretty close and is not usually the case in runway incursions. ORD has quite a bit that are always given plenty of media attention. But no, they're not that uncommon.

Jeremy


User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2100 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 7703 times:

Me thinks the UA pilot(s) are in trouble. Whew! that was close.

User currently offlineNADC10Fan From United States of America, joined May 2005, 165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6830 times:

Interesting. I happened to catch one not too long ago myself, as I was on the ramp from south-bound I-95 to west-bound I-595. A CO 753 was on short final to 9L when I saw him suddenly go to an extreme nose-up attitude and start climbing and banking left. I wondered about it, and sure enough a few moments later I saw a SW 737NG lifting off. This was just last month.


TANSTAAFL!
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6698 times:

Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 3):
A CO 753 was on short final to 9L when I saw him suddenly go to an extreme nose-up attitude and start climbing and banking left. I wondered about it, and sure enough a few moments later I saw a SW 737NG lifting off. This was just last month.

WOW you can't be serious, last month??  Smile

What you describe is a go around and done quite often!  

[Edited 2007-07-13 14:47:15]


Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11486 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6446 times:

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 4):
Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 3):
A CO 753 was on short final to 9L when I saw him suddenly go to an extreme nose-up attitude and start climbing and banking left. I wondered about it, and sure enough a few moments later I saw a SW 737NG lifting off. This was just last month.

WOW you can't be serious, last month??

What you describe is a go around and done quite often!

Correct. Go to National in DC, and if you stick around for more than an hour or two, you're likely to see one. I saw 2 yesterday. I've even seen the same plane go around twice one day.



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User currently offlineGlobalATL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 6096 times:

I've been on a Comair flight into IAD (IAD & DCA are both in Virginia, btw) and had to go-a-round twice before landing on that foggy night. Looking at other pax seated next to me, we started to get a little bit spooked but the female Capt. took us home, safely.

User currently offlineBigOrange From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2375 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5787 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 5):
Go to National in DC, and if you stick around for more than an hour or two, you're likely to see one

Go to Philly and stick around for a couple of hours you will see plenty go arounds because of the 27/35 intersection.


User currently offlineAviationAddict From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 627 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5341 times:
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Quoting D L X (Reply 5):

Correct. Go to National in DC, and if you stick around for more than an hour or two, you're likely to see one. I saw 2 yesterday. I've even seen the same plane go around twice one day.

That's for sure, the controllers cut it pretty close down at DCA. If you spot for a few hours you're bound to see at least one go around or a plane abort a take off or something similar.




On a similar note, yesterday at work at BOS I saw an Aer Lingus A333 and a jetBlue E190 nearly collide on taxiway C as the two were turning onto C to head out to the active. The Aer Lingus bird was on Bravo and I imagine had the right of way and the E190 was on Alpha. The E190 started to turn first and nearly slammed into the side of Aer Lingus. It was pretty scary (at least for me, I had never seen such a close call) but no one else at work seemed to think it was a big deal.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5172 times:

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 7):
Go to Philly and stick around for a couple of hours you will see plenty go arounds because of the 27/35 intersection.

Shouldn't be too many at the intersection if they are using CRDA for the sequencing, but know what ya mean.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineSuseJ772 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 824 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5100 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 5):

Correct. Go to National in DC, and if you stick around for more than an hour or two, you're likely to see one. I saw 2 yesterday. I've even seen the same plane go around twice one day.

I was in a DL plane that had to go around twice while trying to land at ATL back in 1998.



Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
User currently offlineTtailsteve From United States of America, joined May 2006, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4823 times:

About 3 years ago I was piloting a Cessna 172 from GNV to JAX (Jacksonville International). It was a pitch black night...probably around 8pm ish. I was cleared to land at JAX and had acknowledged the clearance and was on short final. The tower cleared a Delta flight that was holding short for take off ahead of me. The Delta 737 turned onto the active presumably without visually looking as I was very short final at this point with my landing lights and strobes on--no way to miss me. I immediately started a tight left turn and climbed at VX to avoid the 737 and radioed the tower I was making a 90 and going around and that I had been on short final. The controller came back and said "you've got plenty of time--oh no you don't--do what you need to to avoid the departing Delta" The Delta pilot radioed "Cessna confirm again you have us in sight and are going around--we're rolling now." After that the controller came back and said I was cleared to make my turn a 360 and land and "sorry for that". Then the Delta made a comment and before changing frequency said "anybody need to talk about that or are we good" I was already turning off the active at this point having landed and just double clicked my mic (signifies acknowledgement) and switched to ground to taxi without saying anything else

There were 3 military aircraft taking off from the field just prior to this occurrence. They used an extreme deck angle to climb out after take off the really looked pretty awesome like rockets. My passenger was completely enthralled with watching them and I assume this distracted everyone else as well as there wasn't really any other traffic at JAX that night that was over working the controllers.

Moral of the story--stay situationally aware at all times.


User currently offlineArcrftLvr From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4635 times:

Quoting GlobalATL (Reply 6):
I've been on a Comair flight into IAD (IAD & DCA are both in Virginia, btw) and had to go-a-round twice before landing on that foggy night. Looking at other pax seated next to me, we started to get a little bit spooked but the female Capt. took us home, safely.



Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 10):
I was in a DL plane that had to go around twice while trying to land at ATL back in 1998.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but go-arounds are very common. It's like saying, 'one time I was on a flight and the tray table in front of me would lock into place.' It's not really significant.


User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11486 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4562 times:

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 8):
That's for sure, the controllers cut it pretty close down at DCA.

They REALLY do. I swear I've seen the landing plane hit the deck before the taking-off plane had left the ground before. Can't confirm it, but it sure looked that way. That's technically a runway incursion, right? But I've seen this multiple times.



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User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4529 times:

NTSB Identification: OPS07IA006A
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of DELTA AIRLINES INC DFW BASE MAINTENANCE
Incident occurred Wednesday, July 11, 2007 in Fort Lauderdale, FL
Aircraft: Boeing 757-232, registration: N6714Q
Injuries: 172 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On July 11, 2007, at 1437 Eastern daylight time a runway incursion occurred at the Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood Airport, (FLL), Fort Lauderdale, Florida between United (UAL) flight 1544, an A-320 and Delta Airlines (DAL) flight 1489, a Boeing 757. The incident occurred in day visual flight rules conditions, visibility 10 miles, scattered clouds at 4,800 feet.

The FLL ground controller (GC) instructed UAL1544 to taxi to runway 9L via taxiways T7, D, and B. As the flight was taxiing on taxiway D near runway 9L, the tower local controller (LC) noticed the airplane was going too fast to hold short of the runway. LC told the GC to tell UAL to stop. The GC said "UAL 1544 stop, stop, stop". The crew stopped on runway 9L, 30 feet from the centerline.

DAL1489 was inbound for landing on runway 9L when LC determined that UAL1544 was not going to hold short of the runway. LC instructed DAL1489 to go around. When the crew received the instruction, the main landing gear was on the ground. According to the crew statement, they noted the urgency in the controller's voice so they knew they had to get the aircraft airborne. FAA reported DAL1489 flew over UAL1544 by less than 100 feet.

According to the FAA, the UAL crew stated they missed the turn onto taxiway B.

FLL air traffic control tower is not equipped with either AMASS or ASDE-X. All airport lighting was functioning normally.


User currently offlineDb373 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 244 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4363 times:

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 12):
I'm not trying to be an ass, but go-arounds are very common. It's like saying, 'one time I was on a flight and the tray table in front of me would lock into place.' It's not really significant.

I'm fully aware that go-arounds happen every day, but I wouldn't call them common when you consider all the planes in this country that land without incident every day.



Keep Delta My Delta
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4300 times:

Quoting Ttailsteve (Reply 11):
Moral of the story--stay situationally aware at all times.

Oh so very true.

However,

Quoting Ttailsteve (Reply 11):
just double clicked my mic (signifies acknowledgement)

this doesn't acknowledge a thing.....not one thing. I know what the intent is and that it is used often, I've used it as well right up until the time something goes wrong and a tape is replayed, then you have nothing to stand on.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11486 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4270 times:

Quoting Db373 (Reply 15):
I'm fully aware that go-arounds happen every day, but I wouldn't call them common when you consider all the planes in this country that land without incident every day.

I think you can call anything common when you can predict when and where it will happen, as you can at DCA and other airports.



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User currently offlineDavidkunzVIE From Austria, joined Mar 2007, 431 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3713 times:

Quote:
When a plane is on a runway without authorization, the FAA labels the incident as a "runway incursion."

Even with authorization.



DH3 DH4 CR1 CR2 CR7 CR9 F70 732 733 734 73G 738 752 762 763 772 742 743 319 320 321 333 343
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3664 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
That's technically a runway incursion, right?

Technically it would be a separation error if the landing plane has crossed the threshold before the departing aircraft has departed and crossed the runway end unless you can determine distance from the landing threshold and use the 3,000'/4,500'/6,000' rule for the appropriate category of airplane.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineNADC10Fan From United States of America, joined May 2005, 165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3659 times:

Yes ... thanks ever so much, folks, for 'correcting' me on the go-around. I never would have guessed that's what the 753 was instructed to do ...  Yeah sure

But I've watched flights at FLL for forty years, and get to see this particular pattern most every day (depending upon wind direction) at a pretty high-traffic time (4:30pm Eastern, give or take 15 min.); and this is the first go-around I've seen like this. So what may be common at EWR and LGA and DCA isn't quite so much here, methinks.

More helpful would be to state what constitutes the difference between a 'normal' go-around and a runway incursion. Must both a/c be physically occupying the runway at the same time for the latter? Or what? If not, then I have to think the 753 and 737NG were subject to one, because the 753 was just about to arrive at the threshold to 9L when he yanked and banked it to go around; and it was a short while before the 737NG came into view ...



TANSTAAFL!
User currently offlineDb373 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 244 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3560 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 17):
I think you can call anything common when you can predict when and where it will happen, as you can at DCA and other airports.

But the article was referring to a case in Ft Lauderdale, not in DCA. And my statement was a blanket statement that covered all airports. Of course it occurs more often at some airports than at others, but as a whole, I wouldn't call it a common occurence.



Keep Delta My Delta
User currently offlineArcrftLvr From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 826 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3536 times:

Quoting Db373 (Reply 15):
but I wouldn't call them common

Why not? I agree that it's not SOP, but it still happens often.


User currently offlineSkuertz From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 7 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3524 times:

Well thanks for all the responses!

User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6290 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3328 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 14):
DAL1489 was inbound for landing on runway 9L when LC determined that UAL1544 was not going to hold short of the runway. LC instructed DAL1489 to go around. When the crew received the instruction, the main landing gear was on the ground. According to the crew statement, they noted the urgency in the controller's voice so they knew they had to get the aircraft airborne. FAA reported DAL1489 flew over UAL1544 by less than 100 feet.


I am also sure that the crew were happy they had the 75 Rocketship Power to call on too...



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
25 TTailSteve : I agree its not "standard" radio protocal. However, in this case it was my intent not to get into a discussion about what I considered to be a relati
26 Halls120 : So have I. If the landing plane isn't touching down before the departing plane is airborne, it's damn close.
27 3201 : Mrs. 01 told me she heard this clip on the radio news and was amazed at how calm the controller sounded. Very cool that "calm" to a lay person can be
28 CruzinAltitude : You may not be trying to, but you've done a pretty good job of it. I've flown 3 trips this year, and a couple in each of the previous two years. I wa
29 ArcrftLvr : I'm not sure what you are reading into my post, but I can assure you that I never once indicated that I'm not sensitive to the common traveler concer
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