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USA Today: US Airlines Aging Fleet Alarming  
User currently offlineGlareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1308 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 14317 times:

Yesterday I've read a big article in USA today about the problems that the the airlines in the US are in by the aging fleet. The youngest fleet belongs to CO (9 years) and the oldest to NW (18 year). Randy Baseler mentions that it will become a problem for the US legacies to get production slots since Airbus and Boeing have a full production until 2010 - 2013. This will lead to old fleet with gas-guzzling aircraft and too high maintenance costs. The only airline that has recognized this so far is US. The US CEO mentions that he saw this problem coming and therefore ordered new Airbuses for about $10 Billion. The only other big airline without problems is SW. This is the only airline in the US with a good cash flow and profitability. They just keep ordering 737's. For the other major's the problem is financing. The article suggests that they will have to lease all new aircraft because of poor credit ratings and marginal profits.


There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
79 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5198 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 14194 times:

The "aging fleet" scare tactic comes up every now and then when they don't have anything else to slam the airline industry on. Most of us on here know that a well maintained airplane (ESPECIALLY a DC-9  Wink ) can fly indefinately.


Next up, STL-ATL-MSY-ATL-STL
User currently offlineEHHO From Bulgaria, joined Dec 2005, 815 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14135 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 1):
Most of us on here know that a well maintained airplane (ESPECIALLY a DC-9 ) can fly indefinately.

We do indeed. DC-3s still fly, and every now and then someone makes a working replica of the Wright brothers' aircraft. But the CASM of such projects is huge, if you like an industry metaphor. Obviously, NW DC-9s and AAs 757s and MD-80s are still a long way from those exotic examples, but the time will come when operating them in accordance with FAA standards will become really uneconomical. And if at that time frame availability will be difficult, like it appears to be for the coming few years, the airlines will defenitely have a problem. I think that is what Glareskin hints at.



"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
User currently offlineGlareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1308 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14121 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 1):
Most of us on here know that a well maintained airplane (ESPECIALLY a DC-9 ) can fly indefinately.

That was also mentioned in the article. But this still means that they will have to compete with aged material (not appealing to customers, especially interior) and have higher fuel and maintenance costs. But you are right, nothing wrong with safety.



There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
User currently offlineGlareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1308 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14078 times:

Quoting EHHO (Reply 2):
And if at that time frame availability will be difficult, like it appears to be for the coming few years, the airlines will defenitely have a problem. I think that is what Glareskin hints at.

Not me, but the article... But that is true, there will be no slots available. And the article also mentioned that 25 years ago the USA used 50% of the worlds production capacity for passenger jets but now this has been reduced to 25% which means they don't have the same influence on the manufacturers anymore.



There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5198 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14078 times:

Quoting Glareskin (Reply 3):


But this still means that they will have to compete with aged material (not appealing to customers, especially interior) and have higher fuel and maintenance costs.

True enough. But the media likes attention grabbing headlines, then clarify the headline deep down in the article. A lot of people will see "Old Airplanes Will Drop Out Of The Sky And Wipe Out Your Loved Ones" and not read the rest of the story.



Next up, STL-ATL-MSY-ATL-STL
User currently offlineWCS From Canada, joined Apr 2007, 255 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14049 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 1):
The "aging fleet" scare tactic comes up every now and then when they don't have anything else to slam the airline industry on.

Well, I tend to disagree. Like it or not, the aging fleet is true. Jut take a look at AA and Delta, with domestic planes for example. Everybody is agree there. It's factual.


Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 1):
Most of us on here know that a well maintained airplane (ESPECIALLY a DC-9 ) can fly indefinately.

Maybe not indefinitively, but for still quite a long time. That's not the real concern. The one is, in my opinion, how long could legacies stay competitive with old planes, weak in comfort and amenities? How long could the legacies keep this old and inefficient birds on the sky? Jut take a look worldwide. Europe is filled with recent airplanes almost everywhere. Asia and Middle East, the same.

I also saw this article on US Newspaper. The journalist took AA example. Once there are committed to move forward with the Mad Dogs, it could take 10 to 15 years to renew the whole fleet, with the hypothesis of 2 new planes per month.

Having such a huge fleet to renew is time/resources consuming for sure. It could also be a big challenge with scheduling. Last but not least, the capital involved is Gigantic.

My 2 cents.



FLY SKYTEAM JETS
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5198 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14002 times:

Quoting WCS (Reply 6):


Having such a huge fleet to renew is time/resources consuming for sure. It could also be a big challenge with scheduling. Last but not least, the capital involved is Gigantic.

I agree. But I wasn't arguing the economics of aging aircraft operations/replacement. I was pointing out how the media overreacts.

"Airlines Safer Then Ever" or "No News Today" doesn't sell papers.



Next up, STL-ATL-MSY-ATL-STL
User currently offlineMicstatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 785 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 14002 times:

does anybody have a link to the story?

I think the US airlines have made mistakes with the narrowbody sector. They counted on Boeing and Airbus rolling out a replacement. Well, it doesn't sound like that is going to happen soon until greater advances in engine technology are made. We shall see...



S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
User currently offlineWCS From Canada, joined Apr 2007, 255 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13988 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 7):
"Airlines Safer Then Ever" or "No News Today" doesn't sell papers

I got you.

Raphael



FLY SKYTEAM JETS
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 36
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13909 times:

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 8):
I think the US airlines have made mistakes with the narrowbody sector. They counted on Boeing and Airbus rolling out a replacement.

No - they have simply made the mistake to wanting to keep too long one plane generation for commonality reasons. Look at AA for example - still hanging on the MD-80 with a somewhat limited B737-800. With such a large fleet you start with a fleet renewal as early as possible - little chance to keep one generation for two generations (i.e. keep the MD-80s but don´t replace them with the B737 but wait for the B737RS). That´s simply not working - once a new generation is on the market (roughly every 18-20 years) every airline will want to have it because it is better and cheaper to operate. Demand is high, production capacities are limited - where to queeze in your 500 plane order? Not working - means you are stuck with a 25-30 old plane as your fleet´s backbone when your competition is introducing shiny new equipment.

Fast forward: your competition is now flying something with a DOC gap of say 25-30% compared to your planes. Financing costs make up for this for the first few years - but they have the "new-plane-appeal" - you have the rost-bucket-appeal. Your competition is able to lower their fare - you have to increase them as your fleet becomes older (more maintenance heavy) and fuel isn´t getting cheaper either.

Bottomline: AA, DL and friends have more or less missed out one generation and it will start to bite them sooner than they like.



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineCEO@AFG From Norway, joined Jan 2001, 249 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13909 times:

Taking AA's fleet as an example, would it make sense to go for a three pronged solution to the problem, by buying 737NGs, A320s and E170-195 to solve the problem of delivery slots?

From my recollection the F100 is missed by AA, as the CRJ-700 is too small for some routes, while the MD-80 is to large.

50-100 E190s
100 737NGs
100 A32X

Might make sense, when you could turn over an old gas guzzling fleet much faster.

Speaking of E-jets, how soon could you get a delivery position for one of these from Embraer? With Boeing and Airbus sold out too 2010-13 Embraer might look more interesting for airlines in the market for a 100-120 seater.



"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue." Steven McCroskey, Airplane!
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7711 posts, RR: 27
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13864 times:

Hmm, the USAToday likes to recycle this story every 6 months or so. Sells papers, yawn.

Well, if they only look at Airbus & Boeing then they are missing two other major manufacturers that currently are competing at the low end of the narrowbody segment.

Quoting WCS (Reply 6):
The one is, in my opinion, how long could legacies stay competitive with old planes, weak in comfort and amenities?

New planes are virtually no different in amenities and comfort these days, particularly for narrowbodies flown on domestic routes.

Quoting WCS (Reply 6):
Europe is filled with recent airplanes almost everywhere. Asia and Middle East, the same.

Helps if you have a state-supported airline.

In the US you have multiple conflicting demands
1) Customers demand cheap, bargain basement fares
2) Employees want good wages & benefits
3) Investors want a return on their investment
4) Oil companies want more for fuel


User currently offlineAAflyguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 362 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13864 times:

Did this article only focus on the legacy carriers? I need to take a look, because both B6 & FL are now classified as Major Carriers, and they have a fleet age of probably only 3-years. It seems the research didn't include the LCC's, even those which are in the same category as the legacy carriers.

I'll say that while I have no fear of flying on a DC-9, I prefer not to. NW is the only US carrier flying them on scheduled service, and with the number in the fleet, they're not going to be retired very quickly. It seems that about half of the NW mainline service @ DTW is operated with DC-9's. Old & LOUD is how I'd describe those planes. Again, not a fear, but a preference not to fly on them.

AAflyguy


User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4166 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13769 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 12):
Helps if you have a state-supported airline.

In the US you have multiple conflicting demands
1) Customers demand cheap, bargain basement fares
2) Employees want good wages & benefits
3) Investors want a return on their investment
4) Oil companies want more for fuel

At least in Europe
1) customers demand cheap, bargin basement fares
2) employees want good wages & benefits
3) investors want a return on their investment
4) oil companies want more for fuel...

Except for maybe Alitalia and Olypmic all still somewhat state-owned carriers have the clear order from their shareholders to make money - no protection here from the market. And above all is the EC, which is quite fast at handing out hefty fines if something isn´t done in accordance to the law. But that´s OT in this topic.

Quoting CEO@AFG (Reply 11):
50-100 E190s
100 737NGs
100 A32X

Might make sense, when you could turn over an old gas guzzling fleet much faster.

Might be sensable as the advantage of commonality is no longer such a valid argument when you reach a sub-fleet size of 50 or so (Lufthansa once stated that they want to have a minimum sub-fleet of 15 frames to make things work - 50 seems to be generous already).



Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineWCS From Canada, joined Apr 2007, 255 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 13769 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 12):
New planes are virtually no different in amenities and comfort these days, particularly for narrowbodies flown on domestic routes

I tend to disagree. Give our-self a try between AA and Frontier for example. Quit different experience! And it's not just IFE, it's the overall look of the aircraft and the cabin. I flown NW in first last week, DC9, round trip. That's quite a vintage cabin. More leg room, wider seat. Apart that, the cabin looked horrible, the fabric dirty.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 12):
Helps if you have a state-supported airline.

Not sure how paid for BA 320. Same for LH, Swiss and IB. I have no idea for AF. Definitively not the case for easyJet and Ryanair.

I'm not sure that's the fair reason. Legacies did not took the opportunities to began fleet renewal early enough. Now with huge fleet, it's quite a challenge. Now you also have Southwest in the US with a regular aircraft rotation. There are doing fine!

My 2 cents,

[Edited 2007-07-13 15:42:33]


FLY SKYTEAM JETS
User currently offlineGlareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1308 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13710 times:

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 8):
does anybody have a link to the story?

I've read it in a printed paper. They still make these....

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 10):
Bottomline: AA, DL and friends have more or less missed out one generation and it will start to bite them sooner than they like.

I also think AA. DL, CO and friend have a limitation because they are not considering Airbus. Southwest is probably a different story since they operate a single type fleet.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 12):
Hmm, the USAToday likes to recycle this story every 6 months or so. Sells papers, yawn.

Doesn't make it less true though...

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 12):
Helps if you have a state-supported airline.

Which one?
In the US you have multiple conflicting demands
1) Customers demand cheap, bargain basement fares
Have you ever heard of Ryanair, Easyjet, AirBerlin and the dozens of successful lowcost carriers in Europe?
2) Employees want good wages & benefits
I don't think employees are cheap in social paradise Europe
3) Investors want a return on their investment
Investors accept losses in Europe?
4) Oil companies want more for fuel
I'm not into the prices for jet-fuel but car fuels in Europe are 3-4 times more expensive!



There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
User currently offlineN801NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 744 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13689 times:

Quoting WCS (Reply 15):
I flown NW in first last week, DC9, round trip. That's quite a vintage cabin. More leg room, wider seat. Apart that, the cabin looked horrible, the fabric dirty

The cabin may have needed a more thorough cleaning that it received but it is not the original cabin from the 60's or early 1970's. The interiors were replaced with 717 style equipment when the planes were hush-kitted in the mid 1990's.


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6903 posts, RR: 77
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13628 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 5):
But the media likes attention grabbing headlines, then clarify the headline deep down in the article.

What a lame generalization...

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 5):
"Old Airplanes Will Drop Out Of The Sky And Wipe Out Your Loved Ones" and not read the rest of the story.

And where's the link to that story?

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 12):
Helps if you have a state-supported airline.

You shouldn't ignore all the privatized carriers...

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 12):
1) Customers demand cheap, bargain basement fares
2) Employees want good wages & benefits
3) Investors want a return on their investment
4) Oil companies want more for fuel

Do you seriously think that these aspects are only relevant in the US?

Quoting AAflyguy (Reply 13):
Old & LOUD is how I'd describe those planes.

I didn't notice anything of that when I flew on a 40-year old DC-9 a few months ago. Actually, the flight wasn't much different from the B717 ride two days later.


PH

[Edited 2007-07-13 15:52:24]


Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5198 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13577 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 18):


What a lame generalization...

Lame perhaps. But true often enough.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 18):


And where's the link to that story?

 Yeah sure



Next up, STL-ATL-MSY-ATL-STL
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6903 posts, RR: 77
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13535 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 19):
But true often enough.

Probably, but still no reason to generalize. Slamming "the media" after one bad article is like slamming the whole airline business after one bad flight.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5198 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13511 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 20):


Probably, but still no reason to generalize. Slamming "the media" after one bad article is like slamming the whole airline business after one bad flight.

Or calling everyone on A-net nit-picky because of a few anal retentive posters?

I think I get it now.



Next up, STL-ATL-MSY-ATL-STL
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6903 posts, RR: 77
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13455 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 21):
Or calling everyone on A-net nit-picky because of a few anal retentive posters?

 checkmark 


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineGlareskin From Netherlands, joined Jun 2005, 1308 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13444 times:

Quoting AAflyguy (Reply 13):
Did this article only focus on the legacy carriers? I need to take a look, because both B6 & FL are now classified as Major Carriers, and they have a fleet age of probably only 3-years. It seems the research didn't include the LCC's, even those which are in the same category as the legacy carriers.

Actually the article did mention the LLC's and new carriers in the US together with foreign competition as the big problem for the legacy carriers.
What the article didn't mention is the new foreign concepts coming to the US. With the new open-skies agreement expect mote troubles. Ryanair, Virgin, and other parties that successfully experimented with new concepts are going to fish in the same pond now! This will probably become a problem for the European and Asian legacy carriers as well...



There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13391 times:

Quoting Glareskin (Thread starter):
. The only airline that has recognized this so far is US

It will come as a shock to CO that they "haven't recognized this so far", with the youngest fleet. 25 787s on order, 737-900ERs on order, oldest jet is the 733 which is being retired except for the newest ones, which will get winglets to improve efficiency. The 735s are barely older than the 73Gs (10 years vs. 8 years).



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 Post contains images Superfly : Since when did new equate to comfort? Anyone here that remembers flight before deregulation would disagree with you. Anyhow, an early production AA 7
26 Post contains images WCS : I did not try to find a direct connection between New and comfort. But, as a matter of fact, comfort is higher on an Frontier A319 than in a AA Super
27 Panamair : It all depends on whether the carrier chooses to refurbish/equip the 'old' airplane. There are more amenities, for example, on a 10 year old Delta 75
28 Glareskin : I agree. I'm sorry I didn't exclude CO. The article was more pointing at AA, DL and UA and even at NW eventhough they are ordering new jets in the la
29 WCS : True regarding comfort level, but still, no way to address efficiency limitations. Raphael
30 PSU.DTW.SCE : How many airlines in Europe have 360 MD-80's, or 100 DC-9's, let alone that many aircraft in their entire fleet? The magnitude of replacement and pure
31 Post contains images Superfly : Well at least the livery is still Super! I know that means nothing when you are inside. I do look forward to Virgin America.
32 Post contains images WCS : US legacies do have huge domestic fleet, that’s true. Is there in Europe fleet superior or equal than 360 (entire fleet)? Of course, LH, AF, … Wh
33 Glareskin : IFE, modern aircraft, most aspects are better with the new / LLC carriers. The legacy carriers are scoring mostly by network and intl. connections. T
34 Post contains images SkyyMaster : I was sufficiently PO'ed by the article I wrote a letter to the editor of USA Today. I agree it's just one of those sensational headlines to grab peop
35 Post contains links and images Lightsaber : The basic problem is the airlines low credit ratings. IF an airline had a decent credit rating and some profits, it is worth rotating out aircraft at
36 Nycaviator : I agree that many of the US airlines have older fleets. However it can be guaranteed that the mechanics keep the planes in top notch shape. The drawba
37 Flysherwood : Well I think that NWA recognizes this and that is why they are spending money on their new planes for their overseas widebody operations. Hence the p
38 Glareskin : Bingo! It's like giving an order and afterwards asking for discount. Plus maybe Airbus might have a better aircraft for some missions... Good point!
39 ChiGB1973 : Who were the big boys 25 years ago? Pan Am, Eastern, TWA, Braniff. Were those further back? I did not look up any facts, but for some reason those de
40 GlobalATL : USA Today. They're full of CRAP. Especially when it comes to reporting the aviation industry.
41 TUNisia : US Airways has a very trashy fleet of 737s, esp on the West side of the company. It's shameful really. Look at their trashy 767s they use across the p
42 WCS : Every single carrier is looking deeply into the fleet economics to tweak it with current planes and to improve it with new ones. Now the challenge is
43 Flysherwood : I don't think the American legacies are operating old noisy aircraft to Europe, are they?
44 Max999 : I wish someone would post a link to the article... The original post only talked about economics of old aircraft and somehow this discussion has veer
45 MD80Nut : And that, my friends, is the most relevant bit of information on this article. With me USA Today has less credibility than the National Enquirer. The
46 Access-Air : If not fear, then what? Please explain...... Amen to that.....I definately wouldnt get onto a former US operated aircraft that made its way to the ab
47 WAH64D : The problem is that due to the inherent nature of narrowbody short haul operations you need to have a large reduction in operating cost to see much o
48 Ceray : I'm not a big DC9 fan, but if I remember correctly, NWA put all their fleet thru their 2000 upgrade program at the beginning of the decade. This rebu
49 RIHNOSAUR : I have to disagree, new planes offer some features that to me (as an average economy flyer) make a big difference. You could argue that they are deta
50 JAFA : Remember that DC9's mainly operate short haul routes. Taking into consideration that the A319 is heavier than the DC9, the fuel burn difference is no
51 Ikramerica : Many EU carriers are flying around 15-20 year old A320s. Just because they are A320s doesn't make them better than the 10-15 year old 734s and 735s a
52 Post contains images Antoniemey : Talk about bad reporting, that's the epitome right there... And yet whomever wrote the article DID exclude CO despite the fact that they are continua
53 Olle : The question is probebly not if the airplanes are still safe. I consider and believe that they are.... The main question is if this old planes will be
54 PlaneHunter : Whenever a bad article is published by a tabloid paper certain people seem to jump to the conclusion that "the media" in general need to be slammed.
55 Post contains links PHLBOS : I'm not 100% sure of which article Glareskin was reading from. I did a Search on USAToday's website and came up with the following possibilities: http
56 Post contains links Glareskin : " target=_blank>http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...sp=34 I've read it in a printed version of USAToday. The following article and summary are at l
57 MYT321 : Without the anti-trust (protectionism) laws , most of the US so called 'Legacy Carriers' would be non-American owned within five years.
58 WAH64D : To be fair, thats equally applicable to most other countries you can think of.
59 WorldTraveler : European airlines operate relatively small domestic (intra-Europe) routes compared with their US peers. Euro flags are predominantly longhaul carrier
60 MYT321 : I stick by my comment from a business point of veiw, but as an av.nut, man I'd love to ride a 40yr old DC-9. Last rear-engined plane I flew on was a B
61 N908AW : The fact remains that it doesn't matter if it's true, there are a few obvious responses to this so-called "problem"... 1. There was nothing the airli
62 Spacecadet : Buying new aircraft is a function of necessity, not financial success or failure. If an airline has a new route, they need to buy a new airplane. If
63 Post contains images TrijetsRMissed : Just another typical media fabrication. There is nothing alarming about the age of the fleets for US airlines. Most of the fleets are fairly modern, e
64 Ikramerica : Didn't mean for it to come across that way. I didn't want to quote every single person, so I just picked a couple. It was to demonstrate that there s
65 N908AW : Haha wow. I guess I typed before I thought. Absolutely right, and I'm absolutely wrong. I will justify myself by saying money is a priority before ne
66 DelawareUSA : hhhmmmm glad this wasn't an issue in on 9/10/2001 when many airlines were still flying 727, 737, dc-9 from the late 60s.
67 LTBEWR : Perhaps someone should do a study as to the age of an aircraft and the amount of hours out of service for breakdowns, maintenance, dispatch rates per
68 WorldTraveler : problem is, LTB, the evidence just isn't there. older aircraft can be just as reliable because airlines PLAN their maintenance... and alot of things t
69 N328KF : They did consider Airbus, and rejected them. Now they have preferential prices (and slots!) via Boeing, if they choose to use them. CO has been using
70 Post contains images WCS : Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think dispatch reliability is actually better with DC9 over A319 in NW. Don't know if it's an urban legend or factual.
71 Post contains images OPNLguy : Truer words haven't been spoken... Don't forget that July here is a "sweeps" ratings period, where every molehill becomes a mountain as far as news c
72 Post contains images Lightsaber : I'm doing "back of the envelope" spreadsheets... so my numbers have huge errors. But, one thing I take into account is the cost of the financing on *
73 Post contains images WorldTraveler : thank you for advising us of your unsophisticated financial analysis... the reality is that AA has some very sophisticated finance people running the
74 Baron95 : Not quite. DC9s were certified to completely different standards than an E-190. Airline certification standards have been evolving - and guess what -
75 Olle : So if we learn so much, why dont we desire that a plane like the 747-8 need to be tested to todays security levels? As I understand they are still fly
76 Post contains images AutoThrust : Untrue, the A320 is still the same after 20 years, eh? The MD's changed over the last years a lot in terms of comfort, effciency, maintenance,safety
77 Glareskin : You cannot dismiss this problem that easily. Old fleet will have an impact on: - higher fuel costs, - higher maintenance costs, - less appealing to c
78 Antoniemey : I believe, without presuming to put words in Ikramerica's mouth, that he was saying that the A320 HAS changed over the years, so YES, the brand new o
79 PHLBOS : Newer 767s? I don't think so. IIRC, at least half of US' 767 fleet (I believe US has a total of 9) were inherited birds from the 1989 PI merger and t
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