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NW Reapplies For DTW-PVG/PEK  
User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 703 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3582 times:

To make it complete: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/070716/20070716006033.html?.v=1

The DOT plans to award the routes in an expedited fashion. DOT has indicated a preference for a new entrant carrier in 2007, but remains open to other options. "Northwest is ready to start flying right away," said Neal Cohen, Northwest executive vice president - strategy and international. Northwest would use Boeing 747-400 aircraft for Detroit to Shanghai service, if selected for a 2007 award. "We're prepared to respect the DOT's wishes, but we think the public and the DOT should have a choice. Northwest would accept China frequencies in either or both years."

DOT remains open to other options?

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3531 times:

From what I have learned here, NW stands little chance of gaining additional frequencies, especially since what they are applying for is something they alread have - but they currently route all their flights through their NRT hub.

Should they wish to drop the stopover, they could fly DTW-China nonstop.

It would seem to make a good case for other airlines to be adding new service rather than NW's plea to expand what's already there.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3599 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3494 times:

I don't doubt that NW has the rights and abandon them due to SARs and other things in the late 1990s, but if they still have these rights why hasn't the press picked it up or the DOT said it bluntly to the world that NW will not get rights as they already have them. And since China slots are so in demand if the business is so great, why not just start the route tomorrow.

There is the A.net truth and then the real truth. Can someone clear A.net world from reality for me? (Please include evidence)



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7438 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3452 times:
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Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
I don't doubt that NW has the rights and abandon them due to SARs and other things in the late 1990s, but if they still have these rights why hasn't the press picked it up or the DOT said it bluntly to the world that NW will not get rights as they already have them. And since China slots are so in demand if the business is so great, why not just start the route tomorrow.

From what was led to believe, those routes weren't ours, that they belonged to CA and we were leasing them for the DTW-PEK/PVG nonstops.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3288 times:

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 3):
From what was led to believe, those routes weren't ours, that they belonged to CA and we were leasing them for the DTW-PEK/PVG nonstops

That is interesting...The Chinese airlines still have many un-used/un-applied-for rights. Couldn't NW do something similar with CZ (CZ having the route authority but uses NW metals) to fly DTW-China nonstop?


User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1076 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3194 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
I don't doubt that NW has the rights and abandon them due to SARs and other things in the late 1990s, but if they still have these rights why hasn't the press picked it up or the DOT said it bluntly to the world that NW will not get rights as they already have them. And since China slots are so in demand if the business is so great, why not just start the route tomorrow.

Currently, Northwest Airlines holds DOT authorities to serve the following routes -:

ORD/SFO/LAX/SEA/HNL - Beijing
ORD/SFO/LAX/SEA/HNL - Shanghai
ORD/SFO/LAX/SEA/HNL - Guangzhou
DTW - Beijing

All of the routes may be served with an intermediate stop in Japan, which is how Northwest chooses to operate them. As you can see, they actually no longer have the DTW-PVG authority, although they do still have DTW-PEK.

Separate from the route authorities are the frequency allocations. Northwest has 21 weekly combination frequencies, which can be used on any of the routes that they have authority for.

In these latest China applications, Northwest is applying for the DTW-PVG authority (which they don’t currently have), as well as 7 weekly frequencies which they would use to operate the route. They may not get the authority AND the frequencies they want if the DOT believes that by stopping in Japan, NW is not using the frequencies they already have to the maximum benefit for the US public.

For NW, the frequencies are what is hard to obtain, not the route authority. If NW applied for the DTW-PVG authority alone and said they were going to use one of their existing 21 frequencies for it, then the DOT would grant the authority straight away if they thought it would provide a greater benefit to the US public than the current situation.

NW won’t do this however because it is far more profitable for them to operate via Tokyo, where they can capture the massive West Coast markets of LAX/SFO (and to a lesser extent SEA and PDX), as well as Japanese fifth freedom traffic. The market they could capture from Detroit is far smaller.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
There is the A.net truth and then the real truth. Can someone clear A.net world from reality for me? (Please include evidence)

The list of US carrier international route authorities is available on the DOT website. Northwest’s China routes are listed on page 122 of the following pdf -:
http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/intav/country.pdf

Northwest’s China routes were granted and are renewed under the following DOT dockets -:
OST-97-3177
OST-95-969
Go to the following link, type ‘3177’ or ‘969’ in the ‘Docket number’ field and press ‘search’ to see and read the appropriate documents.
http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchFormSimple.cfm

Hope this helps



Ryan / HKG
User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3082 times:

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 5):
NW won’t do this however because it is far more profitable for them to operate via Tokyo, where they can capture the massive West Coast markets of LAX/SFO (and to a lesser extent SEA and PDX), as well as Japanese fifth freedom traffic. The market they could capture from Detroit is far smaller.

So its nobody's fault that they won't get anything (authorities nor frequencies) till 2010.


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3599 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3028 times:

I read the documents and got a little confused by the legal jargon. But technically NW could start Non-stop from ORD/SFO/LAX/SEA/HNL to PEK, PVG or CAN anytime they want? But they can't do it from their current main hubs.

NORTHWEST AIRLINES GUANGZHOU, CHINA HONOLULU, OAHU, 99-2-8 2/5/99 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES GUANGZHOU, CHINA LOS ANGELES, CA 99-2-8 2/5/99 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES GUANGZHOU, CHINA CHICAGO, ILLINO 99-2-8 2/5/99 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES GUANGZHOU, CHINA SEATTLE, WASHIN 99-2-8 2/5/99 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES GUANGZHOU, CHINA SAN FRANCISCO, 99-2-8 2/5/99 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES GUANGZHOU, CHINA ANCHORAGE, AK O 04-10-8 10/18/04 EXEMCARGO
NORTHWEST AIRLINES BEIJING, CHINA HONOLULU, OAHU, 99-2-8 2/5/99 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES BEIJING, CHINA LOS ANGELES, CA 99-2-8 2/5/99 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES BEIJING, CHINA CHICAGO, ILLINO 99-2-8 2/5/99 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES BEIJING, CHINA SEATTLE, WASHIN 99-2-8 2/5/99 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES BEIJING, CHINA SAN FRANCISCO, 99-2-8 2/5/99 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES BEIJING, CHINA DETROIT, MICHIGAN 1/12/2008 12/10/01 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES SHANGHAI, CHINA HONOLULU, OAHU, 99-2-8 2/5/99 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES SHANGHAI, CHINA LOS ANGELES, CA 99-2-8 2/5/99 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES SHANGHAI, CHINA CHICAGO, ILLINO 99-2-8 2/5/99 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES SHANGHAI, CHINA SEATTLE, WASHIN 99-2-8 2/5/99 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES SHANGHAI, CHINA SAN FRANCISCO, 99-2-8 2/5/99 378
NORTHWEST AIRLINES CHINA U.S. POINTS O5-3-40 3/29/05 828 CARGO
NORTHWEST AIRLINES SHANGHAI, CHINA ANCHORAGE, AK O 04-10-8 10/18/04 EXEMCARGO

If I remember right, back in the 1990s NW had a lot of international flights from ORD. I flew from ORD-NRT and NRT-ORD back in 1994. Actually my return was SHA-NRT-ORD (on a brand new 744 and an old 742...great trip)

So NW's current arguement is that it wants to fly from DTW and MSP, its current main hubs, to China. Why not just ask for an amendment to the current agreements concerning route 378 and change Chicago to Detroit?

And as the thread states they are looking at DTW-PVG/PEK. They can start DTW-PEK tomorrow...why not just do it? They could still have DTW-NRT-PEK but change the number of the flight and then add the non-stop with the current number or is this not allowed? What I am getting at is how NW can use its current rights as well as ask for more.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8770 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3020 times:

So what if NW already has frequencies. So does UA, and AA and CO each have one.

NW knows it cannot politically win more NRT slots, but those NRT China flights are probably very stinking profitable. So they will never be cut... ever!

Meanwhile, NW wants more slots and I think they deserve at least one. They are proposing good service just like everybody else, as an incumbant.


User currently offlineNorcal773 From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 1451 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3008 times:

I received an email from NW about this too. Something about voting for the petition which I did. Their claim about DFW being a 'world-class' transit airport is bogus though. I'd rather see AA get this route but their pilots need to get their act together and not throw it down the toilet like they did with the other recent AA application.


If you're going through hell, keep going
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2997 times:

DTW-PEK/PVG was terminated since it was not profitable post 9/11.
Which leads me to believe, that part of the reason that they have not restarted the route using current slots that are used xxx-NRT-China is because DTW-China will still not currently be profitable with the 744. The current routing through NRT is apparently more profitable.

The proposal states that if selected in 2007 they would use the 744, or if selected in 2009 they will use the 787. Obviously, NW feels that the 787 is the proper aircraft to use for DTW-China, but is willing to operate it at a loss for the time being with the 744, to get the slots, prior to the 787 being ready for service. The 220 seat 787 makes a lot more sense to use on DTW-China than a 400 seat 744, which undoubtedly would probably not fill up, particularly up front. If it were projected to be such a gold mine, then NW would want to keep a 744 on the route, not reduce capacity down to the 787.

Think about this....is there really enough demand to fill a 400 seat aircraft (of which has 65+ World Business Class seats) daily to China from DTW, a route that would rely on a significant number of connecting passengers? Most everyone else, DL, AA, CO are all looking to use 220 +/- seat 777's on the route. A 744 may work from JFK, LAX, ORD, or SFO, but not for a connecting hub alone.

Which leads to my final thought, that the airlines are tripping over themselves to get China authorities on routes that may or may not be the most profitable in the end. Prestege - you bet! A lot of wishful thinking that the route will grow - absolutley!


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3599 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2973 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 10):
A 744 may work from JFK, LAX, ORD, or SFO, but not for a connecting hub alone.

Isn't UA using a 744 on IAD-PEK? Politicians up front? Who is in back..their assistants and who?

But I see what you are saying. A 744 has the legs and can do the cargo, but is a little too big for the route. China is a growing economy but the average Zhang in China can barely afford a flight to Tokyo let alone the US and getting the visa is even harder. The movement is more of Americans and Chinese-Americans going to China and returning and not carrying local traffic to the US. This is why the Japanese routes actually make money...Japanese people have MONEY and ability to move freely. Also the Japanese-Chinese trade/business is flourishing (even though there are some major concerns right now about product safety) and Chinese tourism to Japan is rising thanks to some changes in agreements. NW needed the 787 yesterday I guess.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2803 times:

Perhaps NW itself knows it has zero chance to get addtional China authorities/frequncies thru 2009 and it is waiting for the arrival of 787s. Their Plan B might be just convert one-stop DTW-PEK to nonstop with 787s in 2008 or Plan C: do nothing.

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2787 times:

Exactly...we don't know what we don't know.

NW applied for 2007 basically just for the heck of it, knowing they probably don't have a chance, but they might as well give it a shot. If they can shift slots accordingly they always could do a plan B as you mention and start a flight with the 787 next year. Interestingly enough they have been talking up how the first route/routes for the 787 will be DTW-Asia, but are very quiet on what destinations this could be. They very well just may be waiting to relaunch DTW-China with the 787, regardless of the outcome in 2007.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2740 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 13):
Exactly...we don't know what we don't know.

First, thanks so much for the honest and insightful analysis, it is appreciated.

NW's existing service to China and their application(s) for additional authority is a touchy subject. To summarize, NW has found an effective way to connect many cities in the US with their three existing destinations in China; by flying via the Narita hub, NW provides convenient service to many passengers travelling between the US and China and can do so at a profit.....its a good business plan. But, on the other hand, although NW can offer nonstop services between the US and China right now, the airline chooses not to and offers only services between the US and China via Japan.....it can be argued that NW is not using its valuable China authority to the best advantage. How all of this will effect NW's ability to gain new route awards in the future is unclear, but its probably safe to say that NW's current lack of nonstop US-CHina flights does not help its position.

Between now and 2009, US carriers will add six new routes between the US and China....reagrdless of the outcome of the applications for those new services, NW may have no choice but to launch nonstop US-China services in order to remain competitive.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8770 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2701 times:

Of course DTW-PVG would be highly profitable.

Can NWA really fill a 747 DTW-China? Yes. Could they fill 4 of them daily? Probably, yes.

DTW isn't just a "connect" market. It is a solid locale plus the BEST connect market, preferred every time from places such as DCA, LGA, PVD, BOS by virtue of its superior location and shorter journey times. Journey times are critical in Pacific flights.

Just because NRT-China was better than DTW does not prove (or even suggest) that DTW was unprofitable.

Even if it were unprofitable in 2001, or 1796 for that matter, China's economy has grown 10% annually since 1997, making China in 2009 about 3 times larger than it was in 1999. Also, the USA has grown a lot since then. And obviously, the industrial links between the USA and China have grown immensely in that time.

Can they fill 60 J class seats to Shanghai daily? If anything on Earth can, the Eastcoast-China can.

China is a long way from getting soaked with capacity. The market is skin tight, ignoring the Chinese airlines, which are not taken seriously by Americans.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2699 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
Of course DTW-PVG would be highly profitable.

Then why is NW not flying it right now with a 744?


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4029 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 2636 times:

I suggest everyone read the actual docket that NWA filed with the DOT. It does a very good job selling the red tail attributes for the new service. It also explains very clearly WHY they don't use the China authorities nonstop from DTW and choose to instead use NRT. After reading the docket, it makes even more sense and it reinforces everything I've thought about NWA to China/Asia. It also dispells the greatest theory that so many armchair quarterbacking CEO wannabes around here have: NWA is clueless and has no idea what they're doing.

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf101/476613_web.pdf


AZJ


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7808 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 2628 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
Could they fill 4 of them daily? Probably, yes.

Thats a joke right?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
DTW isn't just a "connect" market. It is a solid locale plus the BEST connect market, preferred every time from places such as DCA, LGA, PVD, BOS by virtue of its superior location and shorter journey times. Journey times are critical in Pacific flights.

DTW does have a great location and has a decent airport, but the local market isnt anything special. Detroit as a city has a dying economy, even though the outlying areas are still ok. I think what would be the selling point has nothing whatsoever to do with Detroit as a city. Dallas and Houston for example have much better and thriving economies than Detroit and both Texas cities are bigger. However the location that DTW is solid and its what if anything can sell this flight. Both Texas cities dont have good geographic locations.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3599 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2589 times:

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 17):
http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf101/476613_web.pdf

good read.

On their map they show my home-hometown airport (the one where I go at Xmas) CWA. CWA area is a major producer of ginseng for China and NW is the largest airline there not to mention the CRJ-900 maintainance facility.

Now I really want NW to get this more than ever.

Question. Let's say that NW gets additional frequencies. Could they move a frequency from DTW to MSP if needed? It had been talked about here on A.net a while back about NW going for DTW and MSP to China.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2579 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 16):
Then why is NW not flying it right now with a 744?

Because they don't want to shut out the highly profitable feed that they're currently getting from LAX, SFO, SEA, PDX, HNL and MSP. Moving flights to DTW would effectively remove NW from the LAX/SFO/PDX/SEA/HNL-China market.


User currently offlineSkyyMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2577 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
Meanwhile, NW wants more slots and I think they deserve at least one. They are proposing good service just like everybody else, as an incumbant.

Sooner or later NW will get the DTW-China n/s authority back, perhaps without having to forgo the NRT services. They will be at a disadvantage when other legacies are flying n/s to China from US hubs and their pax (NW) might still require 2 changes of plane to get there. Probably not before slots are handed out to newbies and a couple of incumbents like CO and/or AA. Speaking of which, I got my email from AA asking me to sign their petition for the ORD-PEK service, but I won't sign it since they bailed on DFW. That route I would have supported.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7808 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 2573 times:

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 21):
Speaking of which, I got my email from AA asking me to sign their petition for the ORD-PEK service, but I won't sign it since they bailed on DFW. That route I would have supported.

As did I. I wont sign it for the same reason. I wanted AA to have DFW-PEK, but I dont care about duplicate service to ORD-PEK.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 2533 times:

After reading NW's application, I would say that they make a lot of sense. I generally don't support the "we should get the frequencies because so and so has a bunch already" argument, but NW makes good points that they shouldn't be ignored simply because they fly China-Japan while UA continually gets more and more frequencies. NW also has a strength in that DTW has higher O&D numbers than either ATL or PHL and much better serves the eastern part of the country (whether we're talking about how close the route is to the great circle, delays at each airport, or ease of connectivity).

I've read all of the entrants proposals, and this one definitely beats DL and US in my book. I think NW, CO, and perhaps AA are the best use of the PVG/PEK frequencies.

That said, I find NW's assertion that DTW is "the largest and most successful US airline hub gateway to Asia" is pretty laughable. Obviously UA at SFO is a bigger operation and serves a much wider-variety of destinations.


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4029 posts, RR: 27
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2480 times:

Sort of off topic, but the CRJ900 mx facility is not CWA Centrair. CWA is exclusively for the saabs the new CRJ mx facility has yet to be announced. Until then, they're done on the line in MSP and once in DTW, they'll be done in the hanger.


As for NWA... yes, they do make a very good case. I hope they get it!


AZJ


25 SFORunner : Let's see: Awesome. I find DLH - PVG constantly oversold. Of course, most other airlines' "West Coast" hubs have connections to more USA cities than
26 Flighty : I think they are just saying UA got a nice flight, and they want one like that too. Their Eastern hub is DTW, and is a source of pride for NWA. Yes..
27 SFORunner : Transportation, pax not necessarily taking priority .... Does UA impose any similar pax seat block on ORD - PVG? Mister Great Circle Mapper says ORD
28 Vega : That is absolutely incorrect in both cases. Significantly incorrect.
29 Nwab787techops : I've looked and can't find any other airline thats put in for 2007 service other then NWA. It looks like NWA is the only airline with an aircraft on h
30 Post contains links B2443 : UA's 744s are configured differently than those of NWs. They have 347 seats in 3 classes so no seat block is needed. See http://www.united.com/page/a
31 LAXdude1023 : O&D. ORD has a large O&D to China whereas DTW does not. Another thing that might help is that ORD is further west and can pull from cities that are f
32 Azjubilee : B2443 - you completely missed the point. DTW will work for NWA, that's why they want to do this! It's just that at the moment given the slots they hav
33 B2443 : I think everyone sees NW's reasoning but still unconvinced. Hope DOT gets it. But that is exactly the same reasoning they gave to DOT in the last rou
34 RwSEA : Then provide the data to prove it!
35 Azjubilee : They can't have their cake and eat it too... thtat's the whole point of this filing. NWA can make China service work from both NRT and DTW... but they
36 B2443 : ...that they can not do DTW-PVG non-stop now. It did not work for DOT.
37 Azjubilee : I must not be seeing your point... NWA thinks they can do it... that's why they're applying for it! I don't understand how their proposal for nonstop
38 DeltaL1011man : DL has applied for ATL-PVG and if they have to will take a T7(772ER) off a route till the 2 77Ls get here jan 08
39 Flighty : United PEK/PVG slots: 5 NW PEK/PVG slots: 2 AA: 1 CO: 1 DL: 1 US: 1 probably So the question is, who gets the last 3 slots in 2009 to add to the above
40 Dutchjet : Who gets the last three........DL, CO and AA; thus each of AA, CO, DL and NW will have two slots (one for PEK and one for PVG for each airline, plus
41 PSU.DTW.SCE : AZJ- thanks for posting the docket. I suggest those of you read them, there is some good insight into what NW proposes to do. I've read through NW, DL
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