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Qantas Wiring Held Together With Staples!  
User currently offlineBiddleonia007 From Australia, joined May 2006, 14 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 8451 times:

Article in todays news regarding a QANTAS 747-400 that recently went through a maintenance upgrade offshore. Seems like some of the work has since been proven to be not the required standard and makes me wonder how many other QANTAS aircraft are flying with the same issue. This story originally appeared on a Current Affairs show and at the time may have seen to be some Tye of union beat up (QF has for years been trying to close down their Australian Maintenance Operations to save costs and move these off shore to cheaper ports for maintenance).

As a QF flyer, the title of Worlds Safest Airline wont last long if this is the result of QF's policy. They like to portray themselves as "Australia's Airline", but they appear to be this in name only as outsourcing of crews, maintenance etc is increasing.

By the way, is any one else aware of other airlines who have experienced this...savings in the name of profit vs safety??

Link : http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...story/0,25197,22093491-601,00.html


Biddleonia007
45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5647 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 8416 times:

Quoting Biddleonia007 (Thread starter):
savings in the name of profit vs safety??

Valujet comes to mind, but, that incident was due to a third-party cargo handler fault?



Next trip: SLC-LAX-JFK-LAX-SLC on AA, gotta say goodbye to my beloved 762!
User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8217 times:

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 1):
Valujet comes to mind, but, that incident was due to a third-party cargo handler fault?

Nope, it was their "maintenance" contractor, SabreTech, who improperly loaded "empty" oxygen canisters into the hold of the aircraft, which were actually out of date and not safetied. I suppose they went on to maintaining aircraft in darkest Africa because they disappeared soon after the accident. Not that Valujet didn't share some of the blame.


User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8212 times:

Just as a second thought, just how do you staple wires onto the airframe of a 747 -- it's made of aluminum.

User currently offlineTBCITDG From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 921 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8168 times:

I wonder whether there is any truth to comments about off shore maintenance workers forced to "sign-off" on thing irrespective if they have been done correctly or not?

User currently offlineNzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8152 times:

Unfortunately you cant just say just because a aircraft is maintained overseas that it wont be maintained properly !!! But where this particular aircraft had its maintenace obviously has a problem .. Otherwise you are saying many world class maintenance facilities around the world are not up to scratch .. Unfortunately as the old saying goes if you pay peanuts you get monkeys does come to mind ..


"Pride of the pacific"
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30623 posts, RR: 84
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8108 times:
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You'd think a division of SQ would run a tighter shop then this...

Guess they won't be getting the South Asia Gold Care contract.  bitelip 

Hope LH Teknik (sic) are on the ball...

[Edited 2007-07-18 03:31:47]

User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2684 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7956 times:

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 5):
Unfortunately as the old saying goes if you pay peanuts you get monkeys does come to mind ..

"Crappy, unsafe maintenance practices, so what, look how cheap we're getting it for!!"

Signed, Geoff Dixon.

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 4):
I wonder whether there is any truth to comments about off shore maintenance workers forced to "sign-off" on thing irrespective if they have been done correctly or not?

Such as entire blocks of systems checks supposedly carried out when power was never hooked up to the aircraft?

Regards, JetMech



JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
User currently offlineDocPepz From Singapore, joined May 2001, 1969 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7904 times:

I watched the report on the Seven website of Today Tonight.

I loved the way the report quoted "unnamed consultants" and "unnamed sources". Anyhow, if this were completely true, why are SQ planes not falling off the air? And what about the tens of airlines that send their planes to SIAEC for maintenance? Are they stupid? Plus, QF is sending yet another 744 to SIAEC in 2 weeks. Why are they doing so if SIAEC is running (apparently!) such a dangerous operation?

That aside, it is widely known that SIAEC can compete on price because it allocates fixed overhead costs to SIA, and only charges out the variable costs to its clients. From what I understand, SIAEC regularly bids for projects at a cost 25% lower than the other major MRO operator in SIN, Singapore Technologies Aerospace. This, even though SIAEC's cost base is higher (most of it due to the baggage that comes with legacy carriers.)

Plus, SIAEC workers do not earn crap wages. I know of technicians who walk out with S$8000 (which is about A$6500, but remember that a dollar in Singapore buys you what a dollar in Australia buys you and in the not too distant past our currencies were on par) a month including overtime and weekend shifts.

There are also massive tax breaks for MRO companies in SIN, and with a dollar that is now 25% weaker than the AUD, coupled with a company tax rate of 18% (compared to 30% in Australia) and very low personal income tax rates, all things being equal, of course it is cheaper to run an MRO business in Singapore.

SIAEC may not be the most efficient MRO company around, and I can understand how they manage to charge out at a low price, but if they really are indulging in unsafe maintenance practices, I would have expected SQ planes to be falling off the sky, and all the regulatory authorities of the world would ban aircraft from being maintained by them.

Also, it would be rather interesting to learn how QF conducts its vendor management. We all know how vendors work. You give them a scope, they perform according to the scope and what you pay them to do. They'll do no more. So, unless we get the full inside story of how QF and SIAEC managed this entire project in collaboration, it would be difficult to arrive at any definite conclusion. SIA itself, is known to be a terrible vendor manager (Just look at the mess with their outsourced Krisflyer call centre - They probably took the specs from the highest bidder and went to the lowest bidder and said "We want you to do what they're proposing, but at your price")

SIAEC has been maintaining 744s for 18 years now and SQ 744s haven't been falling from the sky, nor do they have tech delays that regularly plague QF aircraft arriving and departing from SIN.

Unfortunately, it is unlikely SIAEC is going to be drawn into any public debate, since it involves their client too. Thus we'll never know the full extent of the story. However, why is QF sending yet another 744 to SIAEC in 2 weeks if they are indeed that unsafe?


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4870 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7716 times:

Quoting Biddleonia007 (Thread starter):
By the way, is any one else aware of other airlines who have experienced this...savings in the name of profit vs safety??

Alaska Airlines rings a bell...

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
Hope LH Teknik (sic) are on the ball...

Umm, JQ passengers stranded in HNL ring a bell anyone... The aircraft under went a maintenance check at LH Teckniks MNL I believe 1-2 weeks before the incident occurred...

Quoting JetMech (Reply 7):

Such as entire blocks of systems checks supposedly carried out when power was never hooked up to the aircraft?

Regards, JetMech

The reported stated a procedure which usually takes approximately 50 hours and 8 engineers was carried out in 8 hours by 1 one engineer...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineNzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7614 times:

Quoting DocPepz (Reply 8):
SIAEC has been maintaining 744s for 18 years now and SQ 744s haven't been falling from the sky, nor do they have tech delays that regularly plague QF aircraft arriving and departing from SIN.

Could that be because the SQ planes dont stay in the fleet as long as QF planes do so the 744 fleet at SQ is probably younger .. And younger planes wont need so much maitenance ..

Also how many tech delays does SQ have compared to QF ? I would doubt it would be a plague but a older fleet will have slightly more issues its only natural .. You are also seem to be trying to make a connection about the maintenace of the QF fleet and how many supposed break downs they have ,considering SQ does some of the maintenance of the QF fleet , does that say something also about who maintaines the fleet as well ?



"Pride of the pacific"
User currently offlineAirnewzealand From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 2542 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7569 times:

Quoting Biddleonia007 (Thread starter):
As a QF flyer, the title of Worlds Safest Airline wont last long if this is the result of QF's policy. They like to portray themselves as "Australia's Airline", but they appear to be this in name only as outsourcing of crews, maintenance etc is increasing.

Facts are Facts mate...

95% of employees at the red roo are Australian. Its quite funny when peoplejump on the bandwagon and think QF have so many employees overseas! Big Mis-conception!

As for the engineering...its a wind up as the EBA is coming up! Anything to bring attention to the "problem".


User currently offlineANstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5175 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7361 times:

How many problems happen with maintenance in Australia? I'm sure quite a few, but the unions won;t leak any of those stories.

User currently offlineTruemanQLD From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 1512 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 7314 times:

Quoting Biddleonia007 (Thread starter):
This story originally appeared on a Current Affairs show

A Current Affair and Today Tonight are possibly the worlds most unreliable source of information in the world! They get no real stories so they get the tiniest thing and turn it in to this massive thing. They probably use 'special' staples to keep the wiring to the wall not normal work staples


User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 6806 times:

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 13):
A Current Affair and Today Tonight are possibly the worlds most unreliable source of information in the world! They get no real stories so they get the tiniest thing and turn it in to this massive thing. They probably use 'special' staples to keep the wiring to the wall not normal work staples

While I have no doubt about the quality of the TV show, I am really, really dubious about this "stapled" thing. Just how the hell do you drive staples into the aluminum of a 747? There are special AN clamps that have been around for 80 years, and there is lacing string, which has been around for even longer, although almost all wiring today is tie-wrapped with nylon ties -- at least during maintenance and modification. But staples? Give me a break. No way. I may have believed "glued", which is at least possible, but stapled?

I suspect this whole story is pure BS invented by someone with an agenda.


User currently offlineSlovakFlight From Sweden, joined Nov 2006, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 6752 times:

Quoting Biddleonia007 (Thread starter):
By the way, is any one else aware of other airlines who have experienced this...savings in the name of profit vs safety??

Global Peace Ambassadors!  Sad


User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 6658 times:

Quoting Poitin (Reply 3):



Just as a second thought, just how do you staple wires onto the airframe of a 747 -- it's made of aluminum

Are they talking of Swaging.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6526 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
Just as a second thought, just how do you staple wires onto the airframe of a 747 -- it's made of aluminum

Are they talking of Swaging.

I have no idea, but how do you swage electrical wires to an airframe? Sounds like a pure fabrication by some idiot who doesn't know the first thing about aircraft wiring. Now if they are talking about swaging electrical wires to connector pins, that is very different and done all the time. I have certainly done enough of them in my day, and I suspect just about everyone who works on aircraft has done it.

The more I think about this story, the more I put it into the pure BS category. Has anyone seen a story from a reputable source to confirm this "stapling" story and just how it was done?


User currently offlinePapaNovember From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 473 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6453 times:

Just started the video and found this thread at the same time.

Australia 7 "expose"


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3611 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 6429 times:

Quoting Poitin (Reply 14):
Just how the hell do you drive staples into the aluminum of a 747?

With a pneumatic staple gun. Does nobody here ever do any work on their house? Pneumatic staple guns are powerful enough to drive a staple clear through a person's skull and out the other side.

I'm sure there are areas of the plane that are too thick to be stapled through, and certainly the frame itself probably is, but staple guns can easily penetrate most metals. I don't know what part of the plane they're claiming wiring was stapled to, but there's wiring all over a plane (not just the frame) and I'm sure there are plenty of places where a staple gun would work just fine.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31667 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6357 times:

This article is confusing.Any added details available.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6280 times:

[quote=Spacecadet,reply=19]With a pneumatic staple gun. Does nobody here ever do any work on their house? Pneumatic staple guns are powerful enough to drive a staple clear through a person's skull and out the other side.

Any staple gun able to drive a staple in to .100 inch thick aluminum will also drive it right through the wire. And, if you where to drive staples into the aluminum plate, it would leave very ragged holes that would be prime points for future cracks to start.

As for driving staples through peoples head, how do you know about that?


User currently offlinePanman From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Aug 1999, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5679 times:

Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 19):


With a username like that, an answer like that doesn't surprise me.

Let's see now. What size staple would this be? And what material would said staple be made from? Anything other than aluminium (or aluminium alloy) in aluminium structure and you get dissimilar metal corrosion. For an aluminium staple to withstand being rammed (by the pneumatic stapler) into thick aluminium aircraft skin, without being damaged beyond use, it in itself would would have to be quite thick. Not to mention that all holes in aicraft structure for fastener installation need to be protected from corrosion before the fastener is installed. Depending on what part of the aircraft structure is being worked on said holes also need to be hardened (whether by flap peening, shot peening, cold working, electro-chemical plating, etc).

Like Poitin said, the force needed to drive such a large staple through the aircraft structure would in turn damage the wiring and also create holes with sharp edges and burrs - stress points which will lead to cracking.

The weight of these staples would mean the aircraft would need to be reweighed and a new Weight & Balance schedule being created.

Not to mention that stapling of aircraft structure is not a procedure defined in any Boeing or Airbus AMM or ESPM that I have seen and as such would need regulatory approval before it can be performed on said aircraft.

I have to agree with my colleagues in the industry on this one. It's a fabrication. Utter codswallop.

PanmaN


User currently offlineHikesWithEyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 816 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4953 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 9):
Alaska Airlines rings a bell...

Can you be more specific?



First, benzene in my Perrier, and now this!
User currently offlineJetMech From Australia, joined Mar 2006, 2684 posts, RR: 53
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4066 times:

Quoting Panman (Reply 22):
Not to mention that stapling of aircraft structure is not a procedure defined in any Boeing or Airbus AMM or ESPM that I have seen and as such would need regulatory approval before it can be performed on said aircraft.

So, are you saying that just because something is not allowed by the AMM that it has never been done??? Are you saying that every maintenance practice is done strictly to every single line and letter contained in the AMM??? Are you saying that mechanics have some God like fear of the AMM???

Quoting Panman (Reply 22):
Let's see now. What size staple would this be? And what material would said staple be made from? Anything other than aluminium (or aluminium alloy) in aluminium structure and you get dissimilar metal corrosion. For an aluminium staple to withstand being rammed (by the pneumatic stapler) into thick aluminium aircraft skin, without being damaged beyond use, it in itself would would have to be quite thick. Not to mention that all holes in aicraft structure for fastener installation need to be protected from corrosion before the fastener is installed. Depending on what part of the aircraft structure is being worked on said holes also need to be hardened (whether by flap peening, shot peening, cold working, electro-chemical plating, etc).

Like Poitin said, the force needed to drive such a large staple through the aircraft structure would in turn damage the wiring and also create holes with sharp edges and burrs - stress points which will lead to cracking.

The weight of these staples would mean the aircraft would need to be reweighed and a new Weight & Balance schedule being created.

If any mechanic is either brave enough or dumb enough to use a staple to hold in wiring, do you really think they are going to consider any of the above??? I think not. Speaking of what is approved by A or B and what is not. I remember once seeing a 744 from a well known airline in the hangar, which was undergoing some structural work to a doubler plate around the keel beam to aft fuselage junction. The sheeties were horrified to find that many rivets where not in the places required. Some rivets that where meant go through the skin, doubler and stringer where in fact only going through the doubler and skin in a presurrised area. Broken drill bits where found in some holes and instead of removing them and rectifiying the problem, other rivets where placed randomly around the vicinity. What was meant to be a quick job was drawn out as the sheeties had to rectify the prior poor work.

Speaking of staples and the emergency floor lighting. In normal circumstances, the avionics people will fit the wiring for the emergency lighting and systems such as IFE. This is other done by the low tech method of carefully measuring out the wire runs on the aircraft floor, and then taping down the wiring to the floor boards. The floor boards are lightweight composite only, so punching through a few staples would be no real challenge. I dare say a good whack on the top of a desk stapler would easily do the job.

Ideally of course, all maintenance work would be done strictly according to the AMM, but in an ideal world, the spare parts and supplies you would need would always be there, the hangar would be well lit and at a comfortable temperature and there would never be any time or financial pressure on a mechanic to do a job, or any retribution if they spoke up and blew the whistle.

Regards, JetMech

[Edited 2007-07-19 01:11:18]


JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair.
25 QantasAirways : I actually watched the Today Tonight segment on Qantas and was quite impressed with their reporting! Normally TT is trash, but this story actually was
26 Ilikeyyc : There are plenty of items in the interior that are not aluminum. Floor boards and sidewall panels are two of those items. Furthermore, the article sa
27 Panman : Don't be silly. Been there done that. You and I know that's not going to happen. The most common one I have seen in all the organisations I have work
28 Asiaflyer : It is well known and has also been mentioned here before that neither SQ or SilkAir are on top when it comes to maintenance. Several airlines that ha
29 Shenzhen : It is really Qantas' responsibility to ensure that the airplanes that are maintained Overseas are done so in accordance with their Standards. Qantas s
30 Poitin : I would say he would last about 5 minutes, long enough for someone to come up to investigate the racket he was causing with the power stapler. While
31 Shenzhen : I believe the floors on 747 airplanes today are a honeycomb non metal material (probably fiberglass, light and doesn't corrode). The wiring would be
32 Post contains images Zkpilot : OJHorrible.... the Bangkok Golfcart....
33 Ilikeyyc : No. The jets I work on have honeycomb floor boards- no Al in them at all.
34 Rsg85 : Yes but i wonder how fast they would try pass the buck as if nothing was thier fault if there ever was an incident Qantas's current line of thinking
35 EK413 : Alaskan Airlines was experiencing diffculties in 90s and cut back on maintenance heavily which resulted the lose of an aircraft.. After investigating
36 Auslimbo : I was working at the SIAEC facility for a different (non-Qantas) project last Aug-Sep. As far as I can remember, they had OJQ in there for a D Check.
37 DeltaL1011man : DL and CO send there 767s to china
38 Swissairtaz : Yes thats right, but QF staff is only at the A/C during early or late shift never during night shift. One more thing comes to my mind: You get what y
39 JetMech : Agreed. In no way, shape or form would I assume that the SIAEC mechanics are less than capable. The problem is that QF are screwing them to the wall
40 HAWK21M : Are you saying Chinese Mx is not good. regds MEL
41 FirstTOflyA380 : SINGAPORE REJECTS QANTAS CLAIMS The Australian newspaper, Friday 20 July 2007 Don't drag us into a domestic union squabble, says SIAEC by aviation wri
42 DocPepz : Sorry but are you trying to imply that Singaporean engineers are not trained? And that Singaporean engineers are not paid well? As i said in an earli
43 Rsg85 : Are implying that qantas employees have more care for thier aircraft due to a sense of ownership, or that unions wouldnt have made the public aware i
44 Post contains images Baroque : Fair suck of the sauce bottle Trueman, what can we expect when our Federal Wallopers seem to think that Liverpool (UK) is a suburb of Glasgow (also U
45 AirNewZealand : OFCOURSE its unions! The gentleman who spoke on behalf of Qantas did an excellent job. They really tried to pull out all cards on him... Yeh, he stut
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