Blujaay From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1191 times:
I think it's one of the most beautiful liveries in the sky. The detail put into each aircraft make it one of the most extravagent planes in the sky, espically around each window make it orginal and unique.
Akash From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 26 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1180 times:
I love the livery!...the 'maharaja' type window/door details are beautiful. To bad the planes are washed at every 'C' check....Air India has a outstanding livery and should show it off that way! There have been other posts in the past regarding Air India's livery. Search for 'Why did AI not keep this livery?', the thread discusses why AI switched liveries in the past (due to bad marketing or something like that).
Regarding the disinvestment issue...I heard that SIA and AF/DL were the only plausable bids still on the table...has anybody heard since?
Gobind From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1159 times:
Delighted to read something about AI on this forum. Indeed, the airline has one of the best liveries in the sky. I simply love it. However, I believe that now, it may be time for the airline to make the tail a little more attractive. The body however, should remain the same.
Regarding the divestment, I guess (knowing the Indian government), internal negotiations (or ghoos-handling, as it is known locally), must be going on. I believe in the end, the party that produces more ghoos, will win it. I really hope TATA-SIA get the deal. If this happens, AI will finally have a bright future!
Akash From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 26 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1150 times:
I agree...the tail needs to be updated with a new look...I also love the logo that is on the engines of the 744's. I don't know what it is called exactly. Maybe they could use that on the tail? Any suggestons?
IndianGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1124 times:
The "Palace in the Sky" colors was orignially conceived in the 1960's as an extension to AI's 'Maharaja' mascot by the then AI mktg mgr(i forget his name) and JRD's right hand man. But it was not implemented on AI's all 707 fleet, and was introduced only with the arrival of the 747s, which also sported the new-look interiors, with paintings from the Khajuraho and Ajanta temples. The red stripe over the windows was replaced by giving each of the windows a Rajasthani look.
The colors are extremely popular here in India and a mere suggestion of changing it is sure to evoke a violent response! Having grown up with seeing AI in these colors, most Indians wouldnt like to see it go. When the Yogi Deveshwars of the world introduced the new red-gold and white "corporate" colors with "Sun" logo, it provoked an enormous backlash, and there were even arguments in Parliament! I must have read hundreds (ok mebbe not hundreds) of editorials criticizing the move. AI hurriedly switched back to the old colors again.
But since the current emphasis is on turning AI into a "world airline", on the lines of SQ, perhaps a survey needs to be conducted about how WESTERNERS in particular feel about the colors. I personally would'nt want the colors to be changed.
AI needs just 2 things in my opinion: a larger fleet and better on-time performance. During JRD's days, i hear AI's European flights were so well known for their on-time performance, that some Germans used to set their watches by the arrival of AI's flights (i read this in an old German tourist booklet). And today an AI flight arriving on time would be a miracle!
I believe the first (a larger fleet) is coming although in the form of more leased aircraft. I am hearing whispers that AI fleet will be "more than doubled" by the next schedule with the arrival of mainly A310's and a sprinkling of 747-400's and 747-300 Combis. Though "doubling" the fleet in such a short timeframe seems highly unlikely, given the Indian way of doing things, atleast 10 aircraft should surely join the operational fleet by March.
In addition, the 3 A300B4's operated by AI on its Domestic network have been sold to the domestic carrier IC (which already operates around 11 of these giants). This has been done as part of a fleet rationalisation strategy. Now AI will have only 2 types :747s(300/400) and A310-300s.
I think Indian Airlines (IC) needs new colors. Their livery is over 40 years old and clearly looks jaded. And the silly markings on the tail (its IA if u didnt get it) must be changed.
Regarding the disinvestment, the Tata/SQ alliance and the Hindujas have been shortlisted for BOTH AI and IC bids. The DL/AF combine has also been shortlisted for AI. The Dhoots are in the race for IC.
In my opinion, the Tata/SQ alliance will get AI while the Home Appliance majors, the Dhoots will walk away with IC.
Akash From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 26 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1106 times:
Indianguy...could'nt agree with you more. I do, however, feel that Air India also needs to add some more destinations, which will likely come with an expansion of fleet. Namely, Canadian ones! Hopefully with the upcoming sale and furthur codeshare deals (i.e. United?, Virgin etc.) maybe we will see non-stop Air India service into YYZ (Toronto). Someone needs to step in and compete with Canada 3000, which has been awarded non-stop service between YYZ and DEL via the polar route to commence later next year.
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1102 times:
Guys guys guys.... get your facts straight!
a) The "logo on the engines" is the Centaur and HAS been featured on the tail of the 707s if you remember that far back.
b) "Palace In The Sky" was introduced not in the 1960s, but in 1971 to coincide with the delivery of the first 747-237. Bobby Kooka did come up with the idea in the late 1960s, but it was ALWAYS planned to implement it with the 747s and never with the 707s (as is proved since the 707s never carried that scheme even though they ran for 15 years after it was conceived!).
c) Yogi Deveshwar had nothing to do with the "sun" livery. That was Rajan Jetley all the way.
d) During JRD's days, AI barely flew to Europe! Remember - AI was nationalized in the 1950s.
e) AI's systemwide on-time performance is 90.4% for the first 11 months of 2000. That is superior to pretty much everyone.
f) The fleet is nowhere near being doubled. The fleet is actually going to expand by exactly ONE in the next 12 months. 3 A310-324s are coming in (one is already in service on the DEL-SIN run effective Dec.15 and the others are due in the near future) to replace the 3 A300B4s that are going to IC. A single 747-300 will be taken on lease in the summer schedule.
g) The fleet rationalization theory is all well and good, but AI is actually EXPANDING the types in the fleet. At present there are JT9D powered 747-200s (the newest one of which are only 18 years old and are not going anywhere for a while), the CF6 powered 747-300s, the PW4000 powered 747-400s, the CF6 powered A300B4s, the CF6 powered A310-300s and the new PW4000 powered A310-324s.
h) The Hindujas are NOT involved anymore in the AI bidding. That is a two horse race between Tata/SQ and DL/AF, with the former being the odds on favorite.
i) YYZ will not happen in the near (or even mid-term) future. The reason being that AI has insufficient LHR slots to support the operation, and BA/BAA (whats the difference anyway?!) have screwed them over vis-a-vis YYZ ops in the past.
j) Canada 3000 is not starting non-stop YYZ-DEL. The A330 they operate does not have the range, and lets not even begin to deal with ETOPS and payload issues. Their flights will run to India through LGW.
IndianGuy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1095 times:
Well yeah,thats what i said: the "Palace in the Sky" colors were introduced with the 747's, but were concieved in the 60's. My source was JRD's autobiography.
The Centaur was there even on the Puss Moth that JRD flew from Bombay to Karachi in 1962 to commemorate AI's 30th anniversary, and my grandpa remembers seeing it on the Air India building when he first landed in Bombay, so it must be OLD!
JRD owned the airline thru Tata Sons till 1953, but he stayed on as CMD and default honcho even after it was nationalised, thanx to the Mrs.Gandhi connection. until 1977 i think? I think he was removed by the Morarji Desai gang.
And AI introduced the Paris, Geneva and Frankfurt runs then. AI definitely flew to GVA and FRA in the 60's thats for sure.
All three A300B4's have already been sold for 9 million $ to IC (economic times: Dec 9th).
Regarding the "doubling of the fleet", thats a report i read in a Financial paper, but i too have serious doubts about it. Such things dont happen here! Jet Airwyas mebbe. But Air India. no siree!
But arent atleast 4 A310's and 3 747-300's (if not more) joining the fleet? I believe the A310's deal has been finalised, and RFPs have been put out for the 747-300's. 2 A310's are being leased at $210000 pm and are around 11 years old.
The Hindujas are very much in the race. Again Economic Times (Dec 18, i think). They are bidding thru their truck company Ashok Leyland, btw. Very Surprising since they are vocal supporters of the opposition parties.
Meanwhile, the Dhoots are in trouble, after Cathay Pacific said that they had no formal understanding with the Dhoots over the IC deal. the dhoots are renowned in the home appliance industry, but have no experience in the airline industry. They had orig. claimed to have a technical support from Cathay.
Sean, do u have any info on the actual no. of aircraft to join the fleet, the source and new routes planned etc?
Gate Keeper From Canada, joined Jan 2000, 176 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 1072 times:
B747-437B you said: "get your facts straight!"
"j) Canada 3000 is not starting non-stop YYZ-DEL. The A330 they operate does not have the range, and lets not even begin to deal with ETOPS and payload issues. Their flights will run to India through LGW."
Do not be surprised to hear early in the new year a C3000 announcement of 340-300's via the polar route direct to Delhi and Bombay. You can say you heard it here first.
Akash From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 26 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1057 times:
On the Canada 3000 polar route issue...got my "facts straight" from here....
Canada -3000 to undo damage done by Air Canada
26th Nov 2000 18.13 IST - Indiaexpress.com
More than three years after Air Canada withdrew its direct flight services from India, another Canadian airline, Canada-3000, is now ready to introduce three weekly direct flights from October next year from India to Canada with a capacity of 1026 seats per week.
Canada-3000 airline president Mr. Angus Kinnear told UNI that the airline, in association with the Canadian Government, is working on developing a new polar route for civil airways that would reduce the current air journey time by more than half between South Asia Pacific and North America, Canada.
Mr. Kinnear said that the entire project is being funded by Canada since the Russian authorities have expressed their inability to share the financial burden in developing the new air route. ''Our airline would be the first one to take advantage of the shortest air route linking India, China with north America and Canada,'' he said.
Canada-3000 airlines limited would shortly open two offices—one each in Delhi and Mumbai-- in order to assess the business potential both in areas of tourism and trade between the two countries. Initially, the airlines will start one weekly direct non-stop flights each on New Delhi-Toronto, New Delhi-Vancouver and Mumbai-Toronto routes, which would later be expanded depending on the traffic volume on these sectors, he said.
Mr. Kinnear, who was in Delhi and Mumbai for the last four days to meet the civil aviation ministry officials and airport authorities, said that the Indian Government has awarded a scheduled service license to his airlines last month to provide airline services between the two nations.
Canadian Transport Minister Mr. David Collenette had pursued the matter with the Indian Government since there was no direct air-link between the two nations in the past two and half years following withdrawal of direct services by then license holder Air Canada which later went through the process of merger and restructuring.
The airlines, which would start booking travelers on Canada-3000 flights from May, or June next year, is expected to carry around 50,000 passengers in the very first year. There are half a million people of Indian origin reside in Canada and about 3,00,000 people travel on the Indian-Canadian route every year.
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1057 times:
Two things :
a) Direct != nonstop
b) The only finalized deals are for the 3 A310s. Of these 2 are from SQ and 1 from AIFS. The SQ aircraft have been re-registered as VT-EVE and VT-EVF and the former entered revenue service last Thursday with the operation of a SIN-DEL flight. VT-EVF will enter service in early January. The AIFS aircraft is a former Air Jamaica bird and is presently in D check. Of the A300s, VT-EHN is going to IC on Jan. 1 and the other two will go as the remaning A310s come into service. The 743 lease is still in the tender stage, so don't look for it before summer.
I have the cabin layout map in front of me and VT-EVE still has the old SQ layout of 2 zones of J class seats and the rest Y - so look for her to be deployed mainly on HKG and KIX runs with higher yield pax.
As I mentioned, the AI race is all over bar the shouting. The IPG are NOT pursuing legal action (this is from the mouth of an IPG honcho himself) and they accomplished their goal of raising the stakes for the other bidders.
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1041 times:
Akash - when did AI post a bulletin seeking wetlease of aircraft? AFAIK, the only deal they have had with that in recent years (since the Air Club and Caribjet fiascos) has been with Air Atlanta Icelandic for Hajj charters - none for scheduled ops. Everything else has been dry lease tenders all the way (for the 310s and the 743).
Akash From Canada, joined Dec 2000, 26 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1013 times:
Why did AI pull out of YYZ in the first place? I have heard that it was b/c they were not making enough money from the sector, however whenever I was at the airport seeing someone off or a family member off on one of those flight...good luck trying to find a place to stand let alone sit in the airport. Point being that the place was always rammed and i'm sure the flights were full to considering the demand in YYZ for that route. Please explain. Thanx
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1005 times:
The reason that AI pulled out of YYZ was that BAA yanked their slots for the service since it was eating into BA's dominance on the route. They were offering AI slots where the YYZ-LHR aircraft arrived at 0700 but could not depart till almost 1600. It was impossible for AI to continue the service with those slots. For a while AI experimented with a YYZ tag on to the JFK flight 3 times/week, but that was eating into the JFK loads. Other European gateways (notably FRA) had been tried with YYZ and YMX before, and had not been succesful. Eventually, AI just abandoned the idea of the YYZ flight and shifted their focus onto ORD. Ironically though, the SAME SLOTS that AI wanted for the YYZ service suddenly *became* available for ORD, since they would be competing with VS on the route and not only BA.
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (12 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 996 times:
Once again, I stand corrected.
VT-EVE is NOT being deployed to HKG and KIX, but rather on DXB routes for now. I have a list of the flights she will be operating. I'm gonna try to non-rev on her BOM-DEL-BOM sometime next week just to see how she looks (and to keep my record alive of having flown on the entire fleet).
Gobind From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (12 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 971 times:
Yes, a re-vamped "centaur" on the tail of all AI jets will be beautiful.
I guess, such ideas are miles away from the management of the airline. It's a shame to see such a once prestigious airline in such trouble. I would not even want to shy away from saying that AI is probably the only (or one of the very few) MAJOR airline to cut back on its fleet and routes especially when India is enjoying it's best economic spell.
Those of you who don't know (not including B747-437B) will be surprised to know that AI has options to open services to a total of 5 US destinations. It is only using 2 (JFK and ORD) and that's ofcourse due to the limited number of aircrafts in the airline's fleet.
With such disturbances going on in AI, I sometimes wonder if adequate attention is being paid to the actual maintenance of the old "warhorse" jets. I would appreciate if someone can provide some comfort on this.
25 B747-437B: Gobind - You are correct about the 5 gateways that AI is allowed under the bilateral. Presently these are designated as JFK, ORD, IAD, SFO and LAX. Of
26 Blujaay: B747-437B, I was wondering whether or not AI will once again continue code-sharing with UA on the "round the world" service from IAD-DEL (via LHR) onc
27 B747-437B: Considering the current state of the AI/UA relationship (go back and read about how UA screwed AI TWICE at ORD in August and October over maintenance)
28 Mikephotos: B747-437B writes: "a) Direct != nonstop " Acutally, that's incorrect. Nonstop=Nonstop Direct=1 or more stops without changing planes Connection=1 or m
29 WentOnA777: Mikephotos, Direct flights can also have an aircraft change ("change of gauge"). Take UA flight 881 for example, which flies IAD-ORD-NRT-SEL. I have b
30 AerLingus: That would be so great to see SFO-DEL via SEL! An AI 744 at SFO would be nice to see.
31 Nycank: How come AI does not consider AMS as a European gateway ? Instead of experimenting with CDG and FRA ?
32 Gobind: If AMS=Amsterdam then believe it or not, AI was a regular site at Schipol for years! In fact there used to be a flight from BOM-AMS-LHR. I had the opp
33 B747-437B: nycank - I don't remember this myself, but my dad swears that he was operating AMS-JFK flights on the 707 back in the mid/late 1970s, and the flights
34 Nycank: Sean: The economics of long haul have been altered drastically in the past decade and a half. NWA/KLM are "reportedly" doing very good loads to India
35 Englandair: Wonderfull- for the main reason that it clearly reflects its home country. Just look at the mistake BA made by making their a/c not lookn British!
36 Amo757: i agree with englandair, the biggest mistake BA ever made was to loose the union jack from its liverie. The new designs are very nice and artistic and
37 Hmmmm...: I'm not Indian, so I'll give you my outsider's view of the Air India Palace-in-the-sky look. Don't take offence. It's the cheesiest livery I have ever
38 IndianGuy: Ok Hmmmm... FYI: The Sikh issue is over and past. The terrorism in that state, sponsored from across the border has now been stamped out. Now the prob
39 Jaysit: Random thoughts: An airline's livery has nothing to do with how its perceived if it has a deserved lousy reputation based on shoddy service, etc. AI's
40 B747-437B: Jaysit - were you on AI 304 of the 31st? Any specific comments about crew etc? My dad is always trolling for info. Do you remember the Inflight Superv
41 Gobind: I would really like to see either a newly designed "Centaur" or the "Chakra" in the Indian flag on the tail. Either one would look brilliant. Please s
42 Amo757: i think air india needs a new livery ( can sum1 confirm how 2 spell it). it is definately dated and looks dire! the people af india (roughly 1 billion