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TAM Plane Crashed In CGH Part 2  
User currently offlineBNE From Australia, joined Mar 2000, 3183 posts, RR: 12
Posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 34362 times:

Continuation of the original thread TAM Plane Crashed In CGH (by LipeGIG Jul 18 2007 in Civil Aviation)

TAM Express flight 3054 carrying 170 passengers and six crew has crashed and burst into flames at Brazil's busiest airport, Congonhas CGH in the heart of Sao Paulo.

Link to BBC news http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6903837.stm

Rescue crews said none of the 176 people on board the Airbus A320 could have survived, while more people were killed on the ground.

The TAM airliner skidded off the runway as it landed in wet weather, shot over a busy road and hit a fuel depot.

There had been persistent, heavy downpours in the two hours before the accident.

TAM Express flight 3054 was carrying 170 passengers and six crew when it attempted to land at Congonhas airport, which is mainly used for regional flights from other parts of Brazil and South America.

Aircraft was PR-MBK arriving from Porto Alegre POA as flight JJ3054.


Why fly non stop when you can connect
311 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 67
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 34212 times:

Thanks BNE for taking care of the logistics.

May I say that we owe it to the dead not to draw hasty conclusions. Speculation is fine and healthy, as long as it is clearly labeled as speculation. Saying things like "the airport is unsafe because of x" as if it is fact is disrespectful. I repeat that the dead deserve the truth to come to light, whatever that truth may be or however uncomfortobla.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineLmpinto From Brazil, joined Nov 2006, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 34049 times:
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Tam confirms 186 on board: 162 passengers, 18 employees and 6 crew.
( http://www.taminforma.com.br/noticia.aspx?id=1436 )

[Edited 2007-07-18 14:41:40]

User currently offlineMiamiair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 33994 times:

Quoting BNE (Thread starter):

How long is RWY 35L?


User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 942 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 33995 times:
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This type of over-run accident is reasonably common, although the results are usually far more lucky for the pax and crew:

AF A340 at YYZ
WN at MDW (one fatality in a hit car)
WN at BUR
The Indonesian 737 recently (fatalities in post-crash fire)

There are some reprots that the plane was attempting to take off again. If this is true, then the factor of added speed at the time of the accident becomes paramount.


User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 33923 times:

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 3):
How long is RWY 35L?

35L has an LDA of 1879m [6165ft], an elevation of 2628ft [801m], a slope of -0.5° and a width of 45m [147ft].

SailorOrion


User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2614 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 33675 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 4):

There was the S7 crash in Irkutsk...not too lucky either...

Question to active pilots:

How much time after touchdown the PIC has to find out that the brake action is insufficient and call/initiate a go around?


User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4967 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 33590 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
Saying things like "the airport is unsafe because of x" as if it is fact is disrespectful

I disgree (sort of). It is pretty much established that the airport has problems. What is disrespectul is to say that those problems are what caused the crash.
Regarding the left over of what you posted in the other thread before it was locked, of course money has to be put in many things, but I don't think commercial avition should be the last thing to considee just because it's got pretty good safety record. Especially concerning an airport that hs been criticised before and where incidents are apparently fairly common.
just my .02

regards



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 67
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 33532 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 6):
How much time after touchdown the PIC has to find out that the brake action is insufficient and call/initiate a go around?

Unless it's a dire emergency you are pretty much committed to landing once you have started braking and spoilers are deployed. Mir or others can clarify but deciding to go around after you have started braking is not a decision to be taken lightly.

Runway length is of course also a factor. If you have 3km in front of you lots of options open up.



The condition of the runway should be known to the pilots way before the wheels touch the ground.

[Edited 2007-07-18 15:20:01]


"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6818 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 33476 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 8):
The condition of the runway should be known to the pilots way before the wheels touch the ground.

The problem is that often that is anecdotal...based on radio calls from prior A/C landing.

"Braking action fair."

Well, that might be true when it's snowing, you've got 10,000 feet on runway and it was a DC-9 that landed ahead of you, but how does that impact your decision maknig paradigm based on landing weight, a/c type, etc?

I wish runway conditions were a more finite factor.


User currently offlineTimmytour From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 33441 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
May I say that we owe it to the dead not to draw hasty conclusions.

I am very sorry for the families of those bereaved, but to say "we owe" anything to the dead is pretty nonsensical in my book. This is a forum that talks about aviation. We're not the official investigators nor (ought we to be) the official source of anyone who might want some information regarding the loss that is pertinent to the relative of the deceased.

If anyone wants to speculate away I say let them. Their credibility might well come into question but I can't see how it shows any disrespect to the dead, nor why anyone should see it that way. I can't for the life of me see how anyone prepared to at least discuss what might have happened and the reasons for it can be said to show any less respect for the dead then the huge majority of the population at large who will hear the news but then not give it a second thought.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 33376 times:

One bit of information on our evening TV News that surprised me. They had an interview with a lady who was in a cab on the highway, who said that one of the aircraft's wheels 'clipped' the cab roof.

Apart from thinking how lucky she and the cab driver were, it occurred to me that the aeroplane must still have been airborne as it crossed the highway. The lack of any evidence of wrecked vehicles in the TV newscasts and other pictures rather confirms that impression.

Even allowing for the drop at the airport boundary, how could the aircraft have been braking all the way along the runway, with engines idling and spoilers out, and still have enough airspeed to fly across quite a wide highway at above vehicle height and (as also suggested by the news pictures) hit the upper part of the TAM building? Strongly suggests that it still had some power on, and/or that a 'go around' was being attempted?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 67
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 33378 times:

Quoting Timmytour (Reply 10):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):
May I say that we owe it to the dead not to draw hasty conclusions.

I am very sorry for the families of those bereaved, but to say "we owe" anything to the dead is pretty nonsensical in my book. This is a forum that talks about aviation. We're not the official investigators nor (ought we to be) the official source of anyone who might want some information regarding the loss that is pertinent to the relative of the deceased.

If anyone wants to speculate away I say let them. Their credibility might well come into question but I can't see how it shows any disrespect to the dead, nor why anyone should see it that way. I can't for the life of me see how anyone prepared to at least discuss what might have happened and the reasons for it can be said to show any less respect for the dead then the huge majority of the population at large who will hear the news but then not give it a second thought.

I explicitly said that we SHOULD speculate, as long as we note it as such.

And I will add that "we" also owe it to the living who might be getting on a plane at this or other airports to figure out what happened without coming to hasty conclusions not based on fact. It also muddles the discussion.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 7):
I disgree (sort of). It is pretty much established that the airport has problems. What is disrespectul is to say that those problems are what caused the crash.

Agreed. Although we may speculate, making declarative statements is unwise.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12150 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 33303 times:

What seems odd to me about this accident is the airplane's speed when it left the runway. Even with a 6165' LDA, the speed of the aircraft should have slowed significantly. But, here it seems the A-320 still had a significant amount of speed when it left the runway. The DFDR and DCVR should give good evidence here.

Is 35L an asphalt or concrete runway?


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 33196 times:

(Newly-laid) asphalt, KC135TopBoom. Our questions coincide somewhat, see #11 above.


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineSrilankan_340 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2002, 201 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 33170 times:

May the departed souls rest in peace. My thought are with their family and friends.

A very sad day for Brazilian aviation. It's also a sad day and a big blow for TAM as they have also lost more of their excellent crew (due to repositioning crew on board) in this one tragedy.


l flew out to SDU with TAM from there only last month (14th June) and even then there were a lot of maintenance work being carried out on the runway and taxiway. It's really popular as it is so close to the city. I was visiting Serasa and was surprised as to how close the airport was to their offices!

Here's a link to a video from the cockpit of an A320 coming into land at CGH. You can see how built up the surrounding are is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ77mPgJ_Sk



People are often unreasonable, illogical and self- centered: Forgive them anyway - Mother Theresa
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 33091 times:

What a black day for aviation. I'm really sad.




From what I read the runway was missing small gouges where the water can flow away. Other planes had trouble, too. And why is there a gas station right after the end of the runway? What kind of construction laws do they have there? That is just silliness, and it just costed the lives of 200 people.  Angry


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 67
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 33091 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 11):
One bit of information on our evening TV News that surprised me. They had an interview with a lady who was in a cab on the highway, who said that one of the aircraft's wheels 'clipped' the cab roof.

Apart from thinking how lucky she and the cab driver were, it occurred to me that the aeroplane must still have been airborne as it crossed the highway. The lack of any evidence of wrecked vehicles in the TV newscasts and other pictures rather confirms that impression.

Even allowing for the drop at the airport boundary, how could the aircraft have been braking all the way along the runway, with engines idling and spoilers out, and still have enough airspeed to fly across quite a wide highway at above vehicle height and (as also suggested by the news pictures) hit the upper part of the TAM building? Strongly suggests that it still had some power on, and/or that a 'go around' was being attempted?

Interesting indeed.

< speculation >
If we assume that the aircraft had enough lift to more or less clear the highway it must have been moving at north of 100 knots. Not the speed you want to be at that far down the runway unless you are going around.

Also, no matter how little traction, the aircraft would still have been able to brake quite a bit with spoilers and reversers, unless these were all malfunctioning. Did the aircraft touch down too late?

In cars and aircraft, indecision will kill you. That's why they call it "decision height" for example. You need to make a decision and stick to it unless there is a very good reason.

I predict that this accident will affect how we think of short runways and decision making in the approach/landing phase.
< /speculation >



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineBy188b From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 33047 times:

it is indeed odd the speed of the aircraft when it left the runway. There have been a few incidents involving the failure of the A320 family braking system. One was a leisure international A320 in Ibiza 1998 which overran the runway and the other notable one was a recent incident involving a Alitalia A321 in Naples where the aircraft landed and couldnt stop and had to do a 180 degree turn whilst landing fast.


next flights : BD LHR-TXL J, FR SXF-STN Y, SN BRU-LHR Y, MA LHR-BUD Y, BA BUD-LHR J, BA LCY-SNN-JFK J, BA JFK-LHR J, BA
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 33048 times:

Link to interview re the 'clipped cab' below (top item):-

http://www.abc.net.au/news/world/default.htm



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineBarney Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 966 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 33047 times:

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 6):
How much time after touchdown the PIC has to find out that the brake action is insufficient and call/initiate a go around?

As part of our training, go arounds are now practiced in the sim up to the point of T/R deployment. Once you deploy the thrust reverser's, you're committed. Up until that point, a go around for conditions such as braking action less than reported / vehicle on on the runway etc is a fairly straight forward procedure.

My sincerest condolences to those affected by this tragedy.



...from the Banana Republic....
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 32994 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 4):
This type of over-run accident is reasonably common, although the results are usually far more lucky for the pax and crew:

AF A340 at YYZ
WN at MDW (one fatality in a hit car)
WN at BUR
The Indonesian 737 recently (fatalities in post-crash fire

Lufthansa A320 D-AIPN in WAW (Sept.1993)
Qantas B744 VH-OJA in BKK (Sept. 1999)
Air France B732 F-GBYA in BIQ (Mar.1999)


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 17044 posts, RR: 67
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 32917 times:

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 20):

As part of our training, go arounds are now practiced in the sim up to the point of T/R deployment. Once you deploy the thrust reverser's, you're committed. Up until that point, a go around for conditions such as braking action less than reported / vehicle on on the runway etc is a fairly straight forward procedure.

Wow. Could you do us a favor and list the decision criteria for initiating a "late go around"?



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 32888 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

I'm still trying to reach JJMNGR...

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 4):
This type of over-run accident is reasonably common, although the results are usually far more lucky for the pax and crew:

When talking about CGH, without space after runway, lucky is something hard to find out.

Quoting BNE" class=quote target=_blank>BNE (Thread starter):
TAM Express flight 3054

BNE, it's just TAM 3054. Express is only the name of their fast-cargo service.


Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 942 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 32853 times:
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Recall the AA ERJ that actually scaped its aluminum butt on a BOS runway when they realized no landing gear, and actually succeeded in a GA. Later manually lowered the hear and landed without much incident.

25 Miamiair : Like a runway incusrion???
26 Starlionblue : Sure. But there are well established procedures for landing on any size runway. These procedures do leave plenty of margin for error. For example, if
27 Scouseflyer : Wasn't that the problem with the AF A343?
28 FlySSC : Correct. Hence the polemic between many Pilots Unions/aasociations and Aiports/Aviation Authorities after the AF A340 accident in Toronto 2 years ago
29 Mir : I remember several threads in Tech/Ops where it was stated that once the reversers are deployed, that's it, since they takes a while to get the engin
30 Miamiair : There are too many things that contribute to this accident and it is too early to point fingers. Here's a couple of things I thought of: ---Was there
31 Post contains links and images D L X : From the other thread, I read someone say that the Tower confirmed that the plane landed on the correct portion of the runway. From another news sourc
32 2travel2know : Had that gas station not been there, would some passengers had survived the crash? Everytime I'm in Sâo Paulo and have to drive pass by that area at
33 EDICHC : PR A320 at Bacolod
34 Starlionblue : Indeed. Shorter runway -> more restrictive decision making criteria. It's a simple process that works fine all over the world. The short runway is of
35 AAEXP : Oglobo is just reporting, citing sources that have had access to the video of the runway at the time of touch-down, that the plane touched down at the
36 Mir : I would doubt that, since the touchdown zone markings are 1,000 feet from the threshold, and that's what the pilots aim for (some land shorter, some
37 Post contains links and images Mandala499 : Err... 2500-2600ft of airport elevation??? U want short for a 737, go to Santos Dumont. OK, in the previous topic, it was reported that the aircraft
38 MD80fanatic : From the A320 landing video in reply 15, it appears the plane took the last right exit....even on dry pavement. Final approach speed seemed to be awfu
39 Mrocktor : Not necessarily. The runway is a good 50-100ft above street level. Reportedly they did try to go around (re-take off describes it better), which woul
40 ChrisNH : I know we all love to laugh at the media when it comes to aviation, but The Drudge Report is saying that 195 (!!!) were aboard that A320. That can't b
41 Post contains links EGNR : Firstly, my condolences to all of those affected by this tragic event. Secondly, all of the talk regarding the reported lack of grooves in the runway
42 Post contains links Spacecadet : One official was quoted in the NY Times as saying the plane didn't actually hit the gas station head-on or the accident would have been even worse. S
43 Starlionblue : Good point. But I'd rather do it in the Volvo. It has airbags.
44 D L X : Interesting. What effect does elevation have on landings? Is a 6300' runway near sea level (DCA) different than a 6300' runway at 6000' in elevation?
45 AAEXP : This is a good time to remember the Brazilian Tourism minister, Martha Suplicy's infamous words to the passengers about the Brazilian aviation crisis:
46 NAV20 : Thanks, AAEXP, interesting again. Any jet pilots, what is the actual procedure for applying reverse thrust? I would presume that you select it, and t
47 Cedars747 : I would like to extend my deepest and sincerest condolences to everyone affected with this tragedy Alex!!!
48 AAEXP : TAM now confirms that there were 186 people on board.
49 Post contains links PPVRA : For those wondering how high CGH's runway is at that end, check out www.folha.com.br . They keep changing the pics on their main page, but the current
50 NAV20 : Has a lot of effect on a prop - you can't use 'mixture full rich,' you'd lose a lot of engine power. Don't suppose that applies to jets, though.
51 Post contains images Avianca707359B : My condolences to the families and friends of the victims, as well as to the Brazilian people who are all facing a terrible tragedy. May the victims t
52 Post contains links Hiflyer : In another forum it has been discussed that the same aircraft had a deferral for #2 reverser inop the day before but it was unknown if still in effect
53 EDICHC : In all honesty from the excellent picture of the crash site in part one of this thread, I would have thought if the crew had attmpted to take off agai
54 Post contains images FlySSC : Maximum number of seats allowed in an A320 = 180 (I believe TAM has 165 seats in its A320)
55 S.p.a.s. : Mandala499 Just a small insight. I work at CGH and my office has a vantage view over the 35L/35R thresholds. While I wasn't at the airport at the cras
56 Post contains links and images Starlionblue : Bungling is always possible. However, you never move the levers forward for reverse. They are always moved back, presumably to make the whole thing m
57 Timmytour : I said "speculate away" when I meant to really say that if "anyone wants to draw hasty conclusions..." Speculation is, as you said fine and healthy.
58 LipeGIG : There's an Austrian citizen on the victims list. All others are Brazilians from POA, SAO, RIO, VIX, SSA, NAT, BVB and others. Right, but the problem i
59 Digao : I heard yesterday at CBN radio here in São Paulo the testimonial of an eyewitness that was passing by the freeway. He said that the A320 flew over hi
60 NAV20 : Thanks for #56, Starlionblue, clears that point up.[Edited 2007-07-18 17:03:15]
61 IRelayer : My deepest condolences to the families of those who were killed. Such a tragedy. Although I have never been to CGH (or Brazil), I do fly in and out of
62 Starlionblue : Fair and well argued. I think we more or less agree actually. We just come at the discussion from different angles.
63 Digao : TAM has increased the number of rows last year for A320s. I think they have both configuration: 168 seats (28 rows) and 180 seats (30 rows). Rodrigo
64 FMAL : Listening to the radio on my way to work today (stuck on a traffic jam for 1:30 hrs on a usually 30 min. drive), authorities were saying that the pilo
65 Dellatorre : Two things to consider: Should the pilot try not to take off again, and simply land regardless of how much runway he had left, probably the aircraft w
66 Post contains images Mrocktor : This is the image from Folha:
67 Arrow : Many years ago (and my fuzzy memory might be off) a Pacific Western Airlines 737-200 tried to abort a landing on a snowy runway in Cranbrook, B.C. --
68 FlySSC : The media report 186 persons on board the aircraft : 180 PAX + Crew of 6 ( 2 Pilots + 4 F/A). In any case, 195 persons on board an A320 is not possib
69 Starlionblue : Note that the below is mostly speculation and hypothetical reasoning. An old pilot saying goes "Use your superior piloting skills to stay out of situ
70 BuyantUkhaa : Who mentioned 195? The officially released number is 186, which makes perfect sense. And is of course tragic, because the number of casualties onboar
71 Hiflyer : Mrocktor thanks very much for that image from Folha....that daylight shot clearly shows the severe drop off at the end and left/right side of the runw
72 Irobertson : That Youtube video of the TAM A320 landing in sunny daytime conditions shows that if, as the reports speculate, the plane landed within the right tou
73 Incitatus : A lot of this forum is made of speculation. I rather consider the opposite: if not clearly labeled as reliable information with a source, then it may
74 FlySSC : Answer :
75 NAV20 : In fairness to the pilots, it should perhaps be pointed out that the normal landing speed of an airliner with gear and flaps down is about 160 statut
76 NIKV69 : The airport is not unsafe, the way it is being used is. This is just like Midway in Chicago. If you just keep adding more and more flights and the pr
77 Starlionblue : Good point. To add to that calculation, we can assume perhaps 7-10 seconds for the engines to spool from reverse or idle to full forward thrust. So w
78 AAEXP : TAM confirms 186 on board: 162 passengers 6 crew 18 company employees
79 Post contains links and images Mandala499 : Your indicated approach speed on the Indicated AirSpeed is the same, but, this would result in a higher true airspeed at a higher altitude (less air
80 SEPilot : Unfortunately the ultimate responsibility for safe operation of any flight rests with the pilot, and therefore the blame if something goes wrong star
81 Starlionblue : Please don't quote me out of context. What I said has been totally distorted.
82 C010T3 : It's been reported that at least three people died on the ground, including a man who was in his car parked in the gas station. There are many injure
83 Post contains links Addd : What about the Irkutsk scenario (see below)? Very similar conditions - wet runway, etc., and very similar outcome... By the way, after that crash, the
84 RFields5421 : Departure off the runway centerline is very consistent with hydroplaning or significantly diminished traction due to wet runways. Very seldom do aircr
85 Dellatorre : I'm not saying the pilot should be blamed or anything. I'm assuming that giving the critical situation, what led the pilot to "aim" the aircraft dire
86 Starlionblue : Eh. no. There is no way of knowing that. The runway may have been fine and the pilot slipped on the rudder pedal. There may have been something wrong
87 Post contains links Thorben : Here is a picture that shows the way it looks there. The aircraft must have gone downhill and picked up even more speed doing so. http://www.planepict
88 Post contains links Md94 : CNN is now reporting the pilot aborted the landing after overshooting the runway, so I guess he was trying to get it off the ground when it crashed, w
89 FMAL : SEPilot, I fully agree with you. Unfortunately, our country has many problems, and one is the proven fact that our authorities do not take the necess
90 NAV20 : Sadly, though, always provided that the pilots are dead, 'pilot error' usually turns out to be the most convenient 'primary cause' from the viewpoint
91 Rabenschlag : A little skidding to the left resulting in one wheel on the presumably soft grass would ultimately cause a forceful left movement.
92 Miamiair : This statement is premature if it was the cause. You are drawing your conclusion on what?
93 DeC : This video is very interesting. If i am not mistaken, where these people are standing should be at the level where the plane today crashed (only a bit
94 RFields5421 : The system should work to avoid putting pilots into situations where there is no margin for error. Everyone makes mistakes. Most we recover from and
95 Kempa : Buildings to the front and right of the runway are taller. There were reports that the pilot might have said "turn, turn" before the aircraft colided
96 Post contains images David L : And maybe he meant to turn back on to the runway heading. We don't know. Incidentally, Starlionblue didn't say what you quoted - you clicked the wron
97 LAXspotter : Try telling that to the News outlets, sheesh, theyre all bent on just saying "Runway was dangerously short". I really hate speculating, but my feelin
98 Cubastar : In my humble opinion......This is by far the best summation of a very tragic accident at this time. Listen to this man. As to his turning to the left
100 Starlionblue : Thanks David. There's news? Seriously the footage is pretty much all the useful stuff I can get out of them. As a friend of mine used to say: "Aftonb
101 SEPilot : This is unfortunate. I regard the safety record of airlines in the US and Europe as being one of the most amazing achievements of this century. It wa
102 Bmacleod : I didn't realize an A320 could carry 180+ passengers. I thought the maximum was 140-50.
103 Starlionblue : 180 is the max. Of course this is with a one class config. Well sad. Impartial and non political investigations are critical. Figure out the truth no
104 Post contains links Breiz : Here is the statement issued by Airbus: http://www.airbus.com/crisis/index.html Sad day.
105 Post contains links and images Mandala499 : Going straight would look better? I disagree... It'll be equally disastrous... The plane would have landed right where the two huge approach pylons a
106 Spacecadet : Airplanes have a lot of mass and inertia. They don't turn in a skid unless something is making them turn. When traction is lost, the airplane will co
107 Irobertson : Has the black box been found yet?
108 ULMFlyer : Interesting piece of info. Forgive my ignorance Starlionblue, but I suppose there are then different detentes, in both cases, for settings from idle
109 Bozo :
110 SEPilot : Good points; I had not noticed that from the previously posted pictures that I saw. It certainly is a difficult spot, but you could start at the disp
111 Post contains images BA787 : Sad day, such a shame May all those who perished rest in peace BA787
112 Digao : Yes. And according to Brazilian authorities it was already sent to NTSB in U.S. for analisys/transcription.
113 Post contains images Starlionblue : I am not sure. It would seem logical to have an idle thrust detent (this we know exists), a detent for idle reverse, then smooth sailing to the back
114 FD728 : On CNN they said Congonhas is open for air traffic again. Can anyone confirm this?
115 RFields5421 : The last taxiway is a 90 degrees from the runway and not a high speed turn off. The end of the runway taxiway makes a 180 degree turn in about 200 ft
116 AF086 : Yes it is. The first plane to takeoff was a Pantanal ATR42 at around 7am.
117 Starlionblue : CNN: "What appears to have happened is that he (the pilot) didn't manage to land and he tried to take off again," said Capt. Marcos, a fire department
118 PPVRA : Thanks for posting the pic. The computer I was using at the time wouldn't allow me to use the copy/paste function. [Edited 2007-07-18 19:54:02] Ok, s
119 Post contains images ULMFlyer : I know what you mean, though I'm not sure how it feels/works in the case of Boeings' reverse levers. Sorry! Fixed
120 Digao : That's right. The shorter runway is being used. 17L/35R - 4,708 ft/1,435 m
121 Post contains images RFields5421 : Though off the centerline - it was only a few degrees off.
122 Starlionblue : The reverse levers are mounted on the front of the thrust levers, folded up against them with the hinge towards the top of the thrust levers. To reve
123 D L X : I think you can take out weather (see my photo, and note the water being blown through the engines just before touchdown), pilot training (i can't be
124 Rafaelyyz : Is it just me or do Airbus planes specifically have a problem with landing soon after heavy rain: Warsaw, Irkutsk, Toronto, and now CGH. What gives??
125 PU752 : Im wondering about the pilots operating today at SBSP, how to operate like nothing happend?
126 Teneriffe77 : One fo the main differences between CGH and LGA(along with DCA) is that CGH is surrounded by a development and a sharp drop so that any overrun will m
127 PPVRA : Quite sure its a very somber day.
128 OA260 : Sky News mentioned that the same plane slipped off the runway on Monday!!! Can anyone confirm this?? I cant see if it has been mentioned yet due to th
129 Irobertson : It's you. An Embraer just did it at Simon Bolivar. I'm sure if I had the time, I could show you a half dozen Boeings, Tupolevs, and Bombardiers that
130 BravoGolf : Has anyone heard from JJMNGR?? Is he OK?
131 Irobertson : Wasn't there a crash in Indonesia like this with an A320 or 737 a few years back, went off the end of the runway, down an embankment, right into some
132 Lufthansa747 : Mandala B737-200 PK-RIM crashed into houses on takeoff from MES.
133 Post contains images Digao : Just correcting... The actual impact point is marked in red.
134 Addd : May be true, but to me CGH looks too much like a carbon copy of Irkutsk (see my post above) not to wonder...
135 Post contains images PU752 : no news about JJMNGR? Its weird he didnt show up yet ...
136 Rafaelyyz : I recall several changes have had to be made after the Warsaw crash. Hence I thought maybe the problem wasn't fully resolved. I stand corrected.
137 Mrocktor : Not necessarily so. Look at the top down picture in Reply 121, there is a lot more open ground going straight ahead or veering slightly right. Yes, m
138 Breiz : It's you. Although Warsaw highlighted some software problem among other factors, Irkutsk was due to reversers and Toronto was caused by landing too l
139 Post contains images David L : It might be a carbon copy but you need to know the statistics for other types before you can say one's more prone to this sort of thing. There have b
140 DeC : I agree as well. Are we serious that left is the best choice? Come on, Straight - or even to the right, pass those buildings, or even between them +
141 PYP757 : CNN is quoting a fire department spokesman. How reliable a source is that? Surely, only the analysis of the flight recorders will tell the answer. At
142 D L X : I wonder how effective that collapsable runway concrete would be at this airport, like they have at JFK, MSP, and a couple other airports. Seems like
143 RIHNOSAUR : My thoughts go out to all of those affected by this sad tragedy that is quite an amazing situation... It seems to me ...I am totally speculating here.
144 PU752 : Yes I agree, knowing how short the runway is, trying to go around in that situation is a huge risk, knowing that if you dont make to lift off, its im
145 Christopherwoo : To be fair on the pilots, didnt this crash take place at night time and in heavy rain? so the pilots not going to have very good visability, im sure
146 Starlionblue : Correct. Modern data recorders store a wide range of parameters and should tell us a lot. Wheel braking is the most powerful, and by a very large mar
147 Post contains images Cumulus : I had no idea the area is so built up.
148 PYP757 : I agree too. Is it possible that the plane was going actually much slower than what has been speculated, and that the pilots were trying to veer it i
149 ULMFlyer : Night yes. But all the METARs around the time of the accident indicated LIGHT RAIN.
150 DeC : That's another issue. You have some valid points indeed but don't tell me the pilots didn't know what was left, straight on, or right, even in nightf
151 Starlionblue : Those runway lights are pretty bright. The pilots should have no problem following the centerline on account of the rain and night time. From all acc
152 RFields5421 : The wreckage heading after hitting a building does not provide significant information about the path of the aircraft. But the photos I've seen show
153 Kempa : Had he cleared the building, he would be a hero. There are no tall buildings in that heading for miles. It is mostly one and two-story houses. Assumi
154 N710PS : I would like to point out that the A-320 is an airplane that as it is is a landing weight restricted airplane at CLT in uncontaminated conditions. Now
155 Mir : Certainly. But what about a successful go-around? Nobody deliberately executes a failed go-around. If the pilots did try to go around, it's because t
156 RFields5421 : This is an A320 specific question - but what activates the spoilers? I've seen reports of spoilers not activating upon touchdown because the wheels d
157 Starlionblue : That may be so. But if the aircraft was above the legal landing weight the pilots should not even have started the approach. Wouldn't that be a bit o
158 Digao : Yes, it is. Landing in CGH is sometimes very scary, specially due to the huge number of high-rise buildings that surrounds the airport... I've landed
159 OA260 : I thought it was one of the most built up cities in the world. They close some freeways on weekends so the public can use them as recreational areas.
160 Post contains images Mandala499 : You're the one who's supposed to be more familiar with the area than I am... *grin* In the case of PK-GZC in March, according to flight data excerpts
161 Addd : Ooohh... can you recall where you have seen that and send a link?
162 RIHNOSAUR : WOW!!! that is quite an interesting fact...at least to me it is. shoking I would have guessed that most braking power was from reversers.....Now of c
163 Starlionblue : I don't want to diminish the difficulty of the approach, but Kai Tak operated for many years, with vicious crosswinds, lots of heavy rain, a visual t
164 Mrocktor : Look at the red box in the picture on Reply 133. Now look at the impact site photograph. In the second you can see the tail is near perpendicular to
165 Irobertson : Which is why I don't think he intended to go left. He may have tried to do it early on after touchdown but maybe the spoilers or the reversers stayed
166 Mrocktor : Yes, thats all they are good for, but it helps in getting to the "acceptance" phase. Unless he was trying to turn onto the taxiway (which is inconsis
167 RIXrat : I was wondering about that myself. Earlier in this thread I read that the #2 reverser "may" have been inop which would have given the aircraft unbala
168 RFields5421 : Which photo? The best I've seen was on Reuters. That shows the tail about 45 degrees off the heading of the front of the building where the TAM Expre
169 N710PS : It is Brazil and more importantly South America in general that it does not suprise me. I want to point out I do not fly the 320 nor any airbus famil
170 Post contains images Mrocktor : Can't really explain it any better. Last try: The wreckage: The yellow line is the wall beside the wreckage, the red arrow is its heading: Of course
171 Mandala499 : The left or right issue was just answering someone questioning "why not go right"... If #2 reverser was INOP, a left bias was inevitable if wheel trac
172 RFields5421 : Or it could have crashed into a building and spun around. Or it could have been moved since the right wing appears to not have struck the building. O
173 S.P.A.S. : Hi Mandala, This winter has been rather dry and since the re-opening of 35L we had very few bad weather days, and when we had, they were mostly cloudy
174 Mrocktor : The flat grey area immediately below the impact site on the map is the gas station's roofing. It is still standing. I'm positive the plane didn't com
175 SEPilot : On the earlier thread there was a report that ATC overheard someone in the cockpit saying to turn left. Agreed. If they tried a go-around they must h
176 6YJJK : Those are some scary-looking blocks. *speculation* If you knew you were going off the end, and you knew that the choice was between falling off the e
177 Post contains images Mandala499 : Cheers for that info S.P.A.S... it answers a lot on my mind... Speculation is for speculation only... let the investigators do it, and we're here just
178 FMAL : Hey, has anybody been able to reach JJMNGR yet?
179 Post contains links Kaitak : Aviation Safety Network has the following in relation to the incident. http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20070717-0 It's the worst A32
180 RFields5421 : Thanks - that's a lot clearer. However, the absence of the right wing damage to the front of the building would lead me to believe - unsubstantiated,
181 Post contains images Mrocktor : Here is a speculative trajectory, assuming the pilots tried to turn onto the taxiway, lost traction and sideslipped into the building. The right wing
182 Dellatorre : It has been reported by Infraero that cameras in the airport apron have recorded this accident, containing images of the landing. Unfortunately, these
183 Starlionblue : In summary: - No FBW Airbus (318 to 380) has been lost (or any lives lost) due to aircraft malfunction. If you want to nitpick you could add "proven
184 Mach4 : I'm not an aviation expert by any means but it's disappointing to see the amount of speculation here based on outdated or simply inaccurate facts. The
185 Post contains images EZEIZA : Just found out one of the victims on board the plane had booked an appt. with the company where I work or this Saturday. A member of his family called
186 SEPilot : Good point; I was just taking it as a possibility. We really won't know anything for sure until the recorders get analyzed.
187 SEAdomer787 : A lot of people have cited the lack of runway safety overrun areas as a contributing factor in the tragic outcome of this event. While I'm not one to
188 Starlionblue : Nice info Mach4. It's probably safe to assume the unit of measure is kg.
189 Morvious : For what I am concerened the pilots did not have any controll of the plane untill the truth comes out of the black boxes. Standing water and a slippi
190 OHLHD : Yes it is confirmed by the Austrian press that he was a 43 year old man from Salzburg however he has been living several years in Brazil already and
191 Alessandro : Hindsight is always 20/20, but has it ever been suggested to over- build the roads and make it nto tunnels instead to increase the area that the plane
192 Mrocktor : Minor correction: I understand that was its takeoff weight, not landing weight.
193 BeechNut : Not necessarily, IF the fuselage was able to go between the pylons. One technique for surviving a forced landing in a light aircraft when the field i
194 Mach4 : On the press conference I saw the president of TAM (Bologna) said it was 62.7 tons at landing. He could have misspoken of course.
195 Post contains images 6YJJK : And that's when it becomes real, when it reaches out and touches you. People I've known and planes I've flown have both ended up in AAIB reports with
196 Starlionblue : They are related. Compare to driving very fast on an icy road. If you end up in a ditch, is it your fault or the road's? In this case we can also add
197 EZEIZA : 100% agree I have the reservation report in front of me and I was crossing the name with the list of victims provided by TAM and I see the name there
198 Post contains links A342 : On a 3000m / 10000ft runway? In this Airbus document, it says less than 1500m / 5000ft with max. landing weight and an airport elevation of 2000ft. P
199 VbeltraJJ : Not yet, his company mail box is full and I don´t have his own phone number, just the number he used to have in cargo building that collapsed. We ar
200 Irobertson : First of all, your comments are ridiculous. Whether or not this runway was safe enough to operate on in wet weather due to the recent resurfacing / l
201 Starlionblue : And this cannot be overemphasized. A shorter runway is different, but not inherently dangerous.
202 EMA747 : I really hope JJMNGR is OK. I don't know him but it would make this tragic event even more tragic if we lost one of our own from a.net. Andy S
203 DeC : " A fire department spokesman said that the airplane cleared the perimeter fence and a busy highway. Failing to gain enough height, it collided with
204 Post contains images N710PS : Look geinious, I said fully loaded, ungrated, in a contaminated condition. Do not question my knowladge, I did load planning for a major US airline t
205 Post contains images 6YJJK : Not "dangerous", but "less safe", perhaps? A shorter runway gives you a smaller safety margin, therefore it's less safe than a longer runway would be
206 Post contains images Bio : Hi all, even if the #2 reverser was inop, doesn't this mean that BOTH thrust reverser are set inop (also blocking both closed)? This is what I've seen
207 Yellowtail : Well the AF 340 that went off the end in Toronto is one for sure...
208 Panman : No it doesn't. pAnmAn
209 FMAL : Maybe this was actually somebody else talking into the ATC frequency...maybe even a controller. Its a possibility, but nothing will be sure before th
210 Mach4 : I'm gonna take back that the reverser issue was denied. That is what I understood when I watched the press conference buut I read on pprune that exac
211 D L X : Slow down man... We don't know you from Adam here. If your knowledge is superior, put it into your argument, and explain why you are right. Don't res
212 Avianca707359B : From the recent press conference: "A respeito dos funcionários da TAM Express, o presidente da TAM anunciou que há três vítimas fatais, cinco des
213 Post contains links and images Scotland1979 : Just in case I missed some info above... here the info http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/pr-mbk/photo.shtml RIP to the unluck ones
214 ULMFlyer : Exactly. I clearly remember the first reports after JJ 402 crashed on takeoff at CGH stating that the last thing heard from the pilots was "Let's avo
215 DTWAGENT : I have a qustion. And sorry if it has been covered already. However, I myself just got out of the hospital and still trying to piece this all together
216 PPVRA : A320 = narrow-body It has in the past, but it's been years since any wide-body ops. There was a proposed "ban" on 737s and F-100s, but did not includ
217 Viscount724 : How does 186 make sense? As mentioned above, TAM's A320 seat chart shows 168 seats. Plus 6 crew makes 174. If there were a total of 186 aboard, which
218 ULMFlyer : It seems to be, Here's how TAM's CEO explained (remember that there were a total of 18 non-rev employees on board): 174 pax in the main cabin + 4 F/A
219 Post contains images PPSMA : Hi all, Just saw TAM's president making an statement about yesterday's accident on national TV and he sounded SOOOOOOO FORMAL, COLD, SELF CONTROLED I
220 DeC : 2 cockpit jump seats? If they weren't off-duty crew or something, i honestly can't even think what horrendous last moments they had seeing it all unf
221 Post contains links Viscount724 : That reminded me of the following LH A320 accident at WAW in 1993. http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19930914-2 The spoilers and thru
222 DeC : Can't the crew deploy them manually in such case when initially and properly armed but not deployed due to ice / aquaplaning etc etc?
223 ULMFlyer : Very relevant. Thanks for posting. These are some of the recommendations found in this accident report: Does anybody know whether Airbus implemented
224 AAEXP : You're quite a GOL fan, EH?
225 Rdwelch : Any word from JJMNGR yet? Gus
226 CJAContinental : I'm presuming the aircraft did not break the aquaplane between the wheels and the runway, and thus continued to slide.
227 SlamClick : Well, there's the problem. Your A-320 has a yoke and Boeing grab-handles above the windshield.
228 Mir : I would think that the FBW software would prevent overrotation, stalling, and wing-dropping, though it of course can't overcome the laws of physics.
229 Mach4 : Brazilian TV just showed the video of the accident recorded by airport cameras. Should be online (youtube, etc) soon and make for interesting analysis
230 DeC : Already? What does it show?
231 Mach4 : Unfortunately the video was dark, low frame rate and grainy but it showed the end of runway and you could see the aircraft was going quite fast and n
232 PPSMA : Hey guys, You bet! I am a big fan of GOL mainly because they managed to break into the so-called legacy carriers hegemony and take a big chunk of the
233 DeC : Thanks man. It's not on either youtube, liveleak or the etc's yet but i am sure it will be soon. Does that brazilian tv have a website perhaps? with
234 Baron95 : As reported by the largest TV News show in Brazil a few minutes ago: 1 - Runway was re-opened for service last month after law-suit trigered repairs.
235 Post contains links BuyantUkhaa : As quoted earlier, some were changed to a 180 pax config. As said before, if it would have started spinning, there would have been little relation be
236 DeC : Thanks a lot for all those details my friend, they're more than useful. Any links for the video? As soon as someone has it, please share with us.
237 PPSMA : Just saw the video on Band News (local news network) and it's really shocking! You can see the A320 going real fast past a couple of parked airplanes
238 Viscount724 : Sounds like TAM has a few different configurations other than the 168 mentioned in their website. One news item said this aircraft had 174 seats. If
239 Post contains links Mach4 : Video can be found on this page: http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/SaoPaulo/0,,MUL72788-5605,00.html
240 Mach4 : By the way, does anyone know the distance between the lights on the ground so that we could perhaps approximately calculate the speed of the aircraft?
241 DeC : Thanks! Pretty shocking and sad, look at how fast it's going! Although they cut it just before the explosions.
242 DeC : Can it be done with such low frame rate?
243 Post contains images PPVRA : Indeed, really terrible.
244 Post contains images Starlionblue : We're getting down to semantics. But with added risk factors added precautions are taken. Indeed. There have been hull losses with the 340s. Just no
245 Mach4 : Yes that is a shorter video than the one I originally saw. I believe there is also unreleased footage from two other cameras, one that shows the touc
246 Mach4 : A low frame rate doesn't imply the footage is slowed down or accelerated so it should be fine. Also on the TV you could see on the top left corner th
247 DeC : Here's a low quality version of the video
248 Spacecadet : Not without also knowing the angle of the camera. You could do it with the distance between the lights, but not just by the length of the plane. It d
249 BuyantUkhaa : Seems a long time between the initial flash and the glow from the big explosion.
250 DeC : Yes but a low frame video doesn't show all the positions the plane was at every single moment as the speed of the aircraft is clearly higher than tha
251 DeC : Also, does anybody else get the impression that the speed of the plane seems to be significantly lower as it leaves the runway to the left in compari
252 S.P.A.S. : Spacecadet, Actually this video on YTube has a lower quality than when seen on TV. On another video you can clearly see the water spray from the rever
253 Mach4 : If you were able to measure the difference in position of the plane between two frames you would have the average speed throughout that distance. The
254 PPVRA : Possible optical illusion as the plane gets further and further and at an angle away from the camera, I'd say.[Edited 2007-07-19 02:57:52]
255 DeC : That's the other video:
256 Starlionblue : From reverse or just from the tires?
257 Post contains links PPVRA : http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAM_3054 Some interesting pics, and you can see what the TAM Express building looked like before and after.
258 Starlionblue : Hey, that Wikipedia article says one of the recorders has been found and sent to the US. Uma das caixas pretas foi localizada e enviada aos Estados Un
259 Post contains links FMAL : This website (portuguese only) has two videos: http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/SaoPaulo/0,,MUL72763-5605,00.html shocking footage, once you realize what
260 PPVRA : LOL, but its true, it was found last night still.
261 Starlionblue : Do you know it was the DFDR or CVR?
262 Spacecadet : Yeah, I see wash from the tires. Reverser wash is pretty obvious. This doesn't look like it to me. Exactly. Say you have a frame rate of 1 frame per s
263 Mach4 : I did some very rough calculations using the distance of 60 meters between the lights on the runway (measured that on google earth). I found the plane
264 FD728 : Very shocking videos. In case you, Mach4, are correct with the 215 km/h, then at this speed and if the pilot actually had decided to take off again, w
265 PPVRA : They don't distinguish, only call it a "black-box". It's apparently in good shape. I'd imagine they have both, though. Preliminary examination in Bra
266 Mach4 : On the video with the wider angle you can see a flash underneath the plane as it gets to very end of the runway, maybe that is the tail hitting the g
267 FD728 : I don't know about the reversers, but while looking at the footage again it seems like the spoilers are deployed. I assume the flight crew was either
268 ScrubbsYWG : in the video posted by DeC, there is a short quick flash with about 9 or 10 seconds left. what is that? I'm sure this is far before the plane went off
269 DeC : I don't know if this is genuine but it's just posted with this tag: "tam jet crash speak pilot and control comand"
270 DeC : Also, if you ignore the STUPID music those f%)%(s put on top, here's a better resolution version of the wide angle video:
271 Mach4 : Genuine but not the TAM flight. That was another flight and it shows the tower telling the pilot to be careful because the runway is slippery.
272 Post contains links Akizidy214 : Not sure if someone has posted this link. http://maps.google.com/maps?spn=0.02...l=en&ll=-23.626692,-46.655375&fc=1
273 FD728 : You're right, that's an interesting observation. It does seem like the fuselage is rotating. At this point the plane might already be leaving the run
274 Mach4 : Using the latest youtube video Dec posted I was able to establish that the security cameras were recording at exactly 5 frames per second. This much s
275 RFields5421 : The flash looks like a light being struck and the arc before it extinguishes. Could be wrong, but there are plenty of lights near the end of the runw
276 PU752 : Taminforma.com.br says that there are 5 missing employees at TAM express building, can anyone confirm that fellow a.net JJMNGR actually was working at
277 Post contains links Mach4 : For those that want to analyze the footage, here is a higher-res, downloadable version of video from all the camera angles (including landing) http://
278 DeC : That's a pretty good find, thanks for sharing!
279 CRBM666 : Thanks a lot Mach4! Very interesting video indeed.
280 N710PS : The 320 was overweight for landing in those conditions. I worked many a flight in the last year before I went on to where I am now where CLT is a weig
281 PPSMA : I guess everyone is getting a bit nervous about JJMGR's whereabouts. Felipe, any news on him? Anyone? Domenico
282 NAV20 : Thanks to all who found and posted the videos. Speculation, but to me they tend to explain one thing - the aircraft veering to the left. This appears
283 Mach4 : After a quick analysis of the multiple cameras it seems like the aircraft speed remained mostly unchanged at around 60 m/s or 216 km/h It's also worth
284 Post contains images KPDX : Yea, but very sobering. Of course you cant say ANYTHING yet, because of course, we dont know exactly what happened yet, but dont you think he could o
285 Baron95 : All reports indicate that the plane touched down within the first 1000 ft of the runway, under control at apparently normal speed. I can't think about
286 KhelmDTW : How can a Commercial Airport have such a short runway? Is that thing even a nautical mile? Shut it down and start over. May the victims RIP.
287 EZEIZA : By watching the video, I thought about that too. Is it possible that the breaks failed for some reason other than the water on the rwy? just break fa
288 ULMFlyer : Glad to read your sensible posts again, Baron95. I agree with everything you wrote. Are you really saying that an A320 at MLW cannot stop in 10,000 f
289 Post contains links Mandala499 : N710PS, I am sorry, but one does NOT have to be a pilot or a baggage loader or a licensed dispatcher to read the aircraft performance chart. Before ma
290 Post contains links D L X : Dude, stop. Washington National's longest runway is just as short, and planes larger than 320s land on it. They used to have scheduled A300s, a UA DC
291 Starlionblue : Indeed. I will chime in with DLX and say that the runway is plenty long enough for larger aircraft than the 320. And yes, it is longer than a nautica
292 Plunaaircanada : Thats a lot of people, really sad. plunaaircanada
293 Post contains images Mandala499 : Lo and behold... here are some numbers... (N710PS, here's something I got from those who ARE qualified for the A320)... Though these numbers do not a
294 Mir : In the second video (reply 255), I see reverser spray. It's too far away from the tires (and in front of them) to be from the tires only. In the vide
295 N710PS : Never said I was qualified on the 320. I know a little bit on it from my operations experince though. And I do know what circumstances I have encounte
296 BuckFifty : I seriously question your credentials, or your skills are definitely poor. 10000' landing distance not enough for a A320 in any operational contamina
297 ULMFlyer : Thanks for the numbers, Mandala. Particularly interesting to me was the difference between distances with and without Autobrakes. Considering they la
298 BuckFifty : Manual braking usually generates shorter touchdown distances, because there is a slight delay with autobrake actuation after touch down. I have read
299 N710PS : Well, as I stated previously, I was not an A-320 pilot nor have I ever flown the Airbus and would not profess to do so but I can tell you that I have
300 NAV20 : Glad we agree, Starlionblue. As I said, the other thing we learned from the videos is that the pilot(s) managed to keep the aeroplane on the runway a
301 Dan2002 : " target=_blank>http://mach.cdxi.googlepages.com/tam...8.asf Looks like your bandwidth limit has been reached.
302 Post contains images Mandala499 : Relax, the information you received are not ENTIRELY wrong... it depends on the context. Companies sometimes DO reduce the stated performance and con
303 BuckFifty : If the eyewitness reports suggesting that a rotation was attempted are true, then the speed issue could be explained. The image in my head suggests t
304 YVRLTN : This is a genuine question. What options do they have? Close the runway whenever raining for the next 30-45 days until it is suitable to have the gro
305 SailorOrion : From what I know (please correct me if I'm wrong): In "FULL" configuration (maximum flaps), the spoilers are extended when one AIRGR switch deems the
306 Mandala499 : The reversers being inoped, the crew would/should know about it... But, should they realize they were skidding, they could go around or stop with what
307 EHHO : The official telex from Airbus that was circulated here at EASA: AIRBUS FLIGHT SAFETY DEPARTMENT TOULOUSE ACCIDENT INFORMATION TELEX - ACCIDENT INFORM
308 OldProfessor : Perhaps you are misunderstanding the reason for the weight restriction you witnessed. In my experience a weight restriction is usually imposed to pre
309 EBGflyer : This is pure speculation, but wasn't on board computers being discussed back when the AF 340 crashed in Toronto? Was just wondering whether the fly-by
310 Post contains images SailorOrion : See reply 305 SailorOrion
311 Post contains links PanAm_DC10 : Those with dial up connections will be having problems accessing this thread, please continue the discussion at the following link TAM Plane Crashed I
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