EI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13787 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1): EK wants a guarantee that if they order a 787-10 it will actually be built? I'm not really understanding this news item.
It says they are looking for a guarentee that the 787-10 will be built. ie if they were to order 100 787s now, they need a guarentee that some of those 100 can be composed of the -10, even if the 10 has not been launched at the time of the order.
Scouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3254 posts, RR: 10 Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13747 times:
I'm guessing that they want a guarentee that the 787-10 that they want (with the longer range) will be the one that is built. EK appear very keen to order the 787 but it's starting to smell like a XWB order
Slz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13684 times:
It is clear EK wants the 787-10 to be shaped to their demands.
Currently the 787-10 is a simple stretched 787-9, with a serious range penalty stemming from that.
EK has repeatedly said they are interested in a plane the size of the 787-10, but they also have said they definitely want it to have the range of the 787-9 (at least).
The A359 seems to match EK's request, so now it is only logic for them to go to Boeing to ask them to come with a counter proposal (not just a simple 787-10, but rather immediately a sort of 787-10LR) or else...
Slz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13564 times:
Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 5): Rumour has it that EK want to replace all of their A332s, A343s, and A345s with the A350 or the 787.
That's not a rumour, that just common sense; the A359 and 787-9 and -10 are the successors to these planes EK currently operates.
As the natural replacement for the 77W is the A350-1000, it is almost a given EK will go for this plane at some point in time as its CASM is so much better (greatly important to EK with all their connecting traffic), so I think the A359 does have the edge here, since it offers full commonality with the _1000 and already meats EK's basic demands, contrary to the 787-10 Boeing has been talking about for some time now.
It is clear that IF Boeing does not seriously rework their design, the order will go to Airbus, however IF they do redesign, I still see no guarantee for the 787 and even less so for EK to never order the A350.
EK has always maintained they will order either the 787 or A350, but I am feeling more and more confident it is shifting to a discussion on whether they should order the A350 alone or with some 787s...
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 70 Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13564 times:
Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 5): Rumour has it that EK want to replace all of their A332s, A343s, and A345s with the A350 or the 787. I hope Boeing gets this one.
Rumour has it that Emirates want to replace all their A332/A343/A345/772/773/77W/77W with one family that is capable of doing that, the A350XWB.
Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 8): For me it sounds like a strong signal towards the 787.
Translate: If you dont guarantee me the 787-10, i will buy the A350 because no other choice.
IMO this is a Boeing order to win.
To me it sounds as if Airbus has the perfect product for Emirates needs, while the 787-10 is playing catch up. Hopefully by the Dubai Air Show all will be known.
Vfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 3592 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13552 times:
Don't think so. Problably only a tactic to make Airbus not to feel too comfy and lower prices. It is plain evident that the only manufacturer that currently meets EKs requirements is Airbus - which gives EK a somewhat difficult negotiating position. I would be surprised if EK would go for the 787 just because Boeing says, ummm, err, okay, we will build it, without offering the product with all detailed specifications etc. etc.
Par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 5901 posts, RR: 8 Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 13473 times:
My opinion, Boeing needs to sit with EK, talk , smile, assure them that they will take their concerns seriously, then continue to get the B-787 out of the door ontime, get its production process up and running, complete the B-748i / F, then focus on the B787-10 or whatever it will be called.
To me this is a case of too many irons in the fire right now. Boeing has over 600+ orders for a a/c that it has not yet produced - flying and in service - , its competitor has already assured other carriers that its next design - A350 - will be larger and more efficient than anything on the market today. Boeing has a larger a/c B-777 with extended range versions which is selling pretty well with slots a couple years out, so even if they commit to the 10 version that EK wants we are still talking about what, 6 - 7 years out? Think they should focus on the now, if they loose this 100 plane and its add ons to Airbus I don't think they will go bankrupt, after all, the B-787 order log dwarfs the A350 log and Airbus is still here and doing business, unless by some law of politics and economics, the same would not apply to Boeing???
AutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1480 posts, RR: 8 Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13297 times:
Quoting WINGS (Reply 10): To me it sounds as if Airbus has the perfect product for Emirates needs, while the 787-10 is playing catch up.
Well thats a other way to see it. (i'm always a pessimist)
However for me it just sounds EK wants the 787 because they have more trust in Boeing (understandable after all issues) to deliver the specs promised and preferred Barrel Method plus GE/RR option. Thats why they dont want rely on Airbus on this very important order.
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 70 Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13217 times:
Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 15): However for me it just sounds EK wants the 787 because they have more trust in Boeing (understandable after all issues) to deliver the specs promised
Well apart from the lateness, Airbus seem to have achieved all the guarantee's for the A380 program and in some cases even exceeded them. Emirates trust and faith in Airbus is still strong despite delays to the A380 program, this is very apparent as they have placed additional orders/commitments for 12 frames in 2007.
I don't think that this is really an issue at this present time. Have both RR and GE committed to supply an engine for the 787-10? How do we not Boeing will not opt to go exclusive on future derivatives?
Slz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 13175 times:
Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 15): However for me it just sounds EK wants the 787 because they have more trust in Boeing (understandable after all issues) to deliver the specs promised and preferred Barrel Method plus GE/RR option. Thats why they dont want rely on Airbus on this very important order.
If they woudn't have trust in Airbus, do you think they'd have placed 2 follow up orders for more A380s this year alone?
I think EK and Airbus' relation is perfectly fine: Airbus had problems with the A380 production due to a well-defined electrical problem, but they have overcome them and the plane itself definitely lives up to the expectations of its customers, so much even EK is clearly thrilled with it (just read the comments and look at their recent orders).
You may also believe EK has a preference for a certain production process (barrel over shells), but I rather think they just have a preference for a lower operating cost really, so provided the A350 can match or beat that of the 787, EK won't bitch on about it (which exactly is what we have seen happening), especially as EK knows that regardless of how good the 787 really is, it's structural design does top out well before the 77W comes in view, so an order for 787s does not give them a platform for this future replacement (contrary to the A350).
Summing al the disadvantages up:
less future growth built-in
If it would be an Airbus plane we'd be talking about, it wouldn't take long before the well-known comment about giving them away for free would be thrown in....
Oh, and have I mentioned their might be some vacant seats in the EADS board offered to the new large shareholders as from October???
Think about it: EK could be executing their business plan to span the globe with a fleet of 400 widebodies with just 2 tailor-made types from the manufacturer they co-own: the A380 and the A350. How much better can you have it as an airline AND manufacturer?
Mptpa From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 515 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12842 times:
I am not sure if EK wants to put all its eggs in the same basket. With 55 A380s and a couple of hundred A350s would be way too risky. Secondly, A350 is still narrower than B777, and with composite barrel/metal frames, they may feel inferior to the B787 in terms of technology, maintainability and passenger comfort. Finally, how would they feel second fiddle to QR since they ARE the launch customer for A350. How does this rivalry play out? What kind of pricing power would Airbus wield knowing that EK is exclusive to Airbus? They would control an extensive market power at EK that once in they may not be able to get out of.
So, EK has an advantage to maintain a dual supplier relationship with A380, B777 and B787 in the lineup. With such a large fleet, commonality argument washes away anyway and having these types would enable EK to tailor their routes and match up the types better.
Philzh From Switzerland, joined May 2007, 146 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12728 times:
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 17): EK could be executing their business plan to span the globe with a fleet of 400 widebodies with just 2 tailor-made types
I'm (currently) curious about everything EK, and thus this business plan -- is this (400 widebodies) something known, or just conjecture? It would be a rather sweet order for Airbus or Boeing, of course: 400 all-new widebodies minus say 60-odd A380s: 340 or so A350s or 787-10s... nice!
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10459 posts, RR: 20 Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12563 times:
Quoting EI321 (Reply 14): The A350XWB is obviously the best aircraft to replace the entire A330/340 & 777 fleet @ Emirates
I agree with this. Emirates has been purchasing from the larger part of the mid-size market, and will continue to do so.
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 17): Airbus had problems with the A380 production due to a well-defined electrical problem
Actually, it was a series of well-defined management problems:
Choosing to not come to a common software standard
Choosing to rely on a unwritten piece of software to bridge the two software versions
Choosing to not communicate the failure of this software to other parts of the company
Choosing to blame the customer's cabin configurations as the culprit instead of the broken software.
No one has ever said there was an electrical issue. From all accounts, the originally designed harnesses worked just fine in the test lab, they just didn't fit into the airplane!
As much as you want to sweep this under the rug, its clear that customers can, should and do have concerns about Airbus's ability to deliver.
Airbus is working through its upper level management reorg, various shareholder issues, the whole Power8 thing, setting up the A350 supply chain, etc. I'm glad Airbus has given itself a long time to EIS on A350, because I think they will need it.
If these issues aren't a concern of someone considering the purchase of 100 airplanes, they really need to find another job!