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EK Seeks Guarantee From Boeing For 787-10  
User currently offlineUAEflyer From United Arab Emirates, joined Nov 2006, 1160 posts, RR: 1
Posted (7 years 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 16193 times:

Emirates wants to order 100 jets in the 300-seat range from a single manufacturer rather than splitting the fleet.

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20070718/BLOG01/70718006

130 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (7 years 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 16185 times:

EK wants a guarantee that if they order a 787-10 it will actually be built? I'm not really understanding this news item.


International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15716 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
EK wants a guarantee that if they order a 787-10 it will actually be built? I'm not really understanding this news item.

It says they are looking for a guarentee that the 787-10 will be built. ie if they were to order 100 787s now, they need a guarentee that some of those 100 can be composed of the -10, even if the 10 has not been launched at the time of the order.


User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3402 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15676 times:

I'm guessing that they want a guarentee that the 787-10 that they want (with the longer range) will be the one that is built. EK appear very keen to order the 787 but it's starting to smell like a XWB order

User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15613 times:

It is clear EK wants the 787-10 to be shaped to their demands.

Currently the 787-10 is a simple stretched 787-9, with a serious range penalty stemming from that.

EK has repeatedly said they are interested in a plane the size of the 787-10, but they also have said they definitely want it to have the range of the 787-9 (at least).

The A359 seems to match EK's request, so now it is only logic for them to go to Boeing to ask them to come with a counter proposal (not just a simple 787-10, but rather immediately a sort of 787-10LR) or else...

[Edited 2007-07-19 11:52:51]

User currently offlineEmirates Skies From Australia, joined Nov 2001, 171 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15605 times:

Rumour has it that EK want to replace all of their A332s, A343s, and A345s with the A350 or the 787. I hope Boeing gets this one.

Emirates Skies



Take nothing but photos, leave nothing but footprints
User currently offlineScouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3402 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15558 times:

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 5):
Rumour has it that EK want to replace all of their A332s, A343s, and A345s with the A350 or the 787. I hope Boeing gets this one.

If they ordered the XWB (with some -1000s) they could replace everything apart from the A380 with the same basic type - like a sort of upmarket lo-co!


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7000 posts, RR: 63
Reply 7, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15558 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 4):
it is only logic for them to go to Boeing to ask them to come with a counter proposal (not just a simple 787-10, but rather immediately a sort of 787-10LR) or else...

How amusing that the A350 is now being used as a stick to beat the 787 with! How the wheel turns...


User currently offlineAutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15546 times:

For me it sounds like a strong signal towards the 787.
Translate: If you dont guarantee me the 787-10, i will buy the A350 because no other choice.
IMO this is a Boeing order to win.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15493 times:

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 5):
Rumour has it that EK want to replace all of their A332s, A343s, and A345s with the A350 or the 787.

That's not a rumour, that just common sense; the A359 and 787-9 and -10 are the successors to these planes EK currently operates.

As the natural replacement for the 77W is the A350-1000, it is almost a given EK will go for this plane at some point in time as its CASM is so much better (greatly important to EK with all their connecting traffic), so I think the A359 does have the edge here, since it offers full commonality with the _1000 and already meats EK's basic demands, contrary to the 787-10 Boeing has been talking about for some time now.

It is clear that IF Boeing does not seriously rework their design, the order will go to Airbus, however IF they do redesign, I still see no guarantee for the 787 and even less so for EK to never order the A350.

EK has always maintained they will order either the 787 or A350, but I am feeling more and more confident it is shifting to a discussion on whether they should order the A350 alone or with some 787s...


User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 10, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15493 times:

Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 5):
Rumour has it that EK want to replace all of their A332s, A343s, and A345s with the A350 or the 787. I hope Boeing gets this one.

Rumour has it that Emirates want to replace all their A332/A343/A345/772/773/77W/77W with one family that is capable of doing that, the A350XWB.  Wink

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 8):
For me it sounds like a strong signal towards the 787.
Translate: If you dont guarantee me the 787-10, i will buy the A350 because no other choice.
IMO this is a Boeing order to win.

To me it sounds as if Airbus has the perfect product for Emirates needs, while the 787-10 is playing catch up. Hopefully by the Dubai Air Show all will be known.  Smile

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineVfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15481 times:

Don't think so. Problably only a tactic to make Airbus not to feel too comfy and lower prices. It is plain evident that the only manufacturer that currently meets EKs requirements is Airbus - which gives EK a somewhat difficult negotiating position. I would be surprised if EK would go for the 787 just because Boeing says, ummm, err, okay, we will build it, without offering the product with all detailed specifications etc. etc.

User currently offlinePhilzh From Switzerland, joined May 2007, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15423 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
Rumour has it that Emirates want to replace all their A332/A343/A345/772/773/77W/77W with one family that is capable of doing that, the A350XWB.

That would make for an awfully nice-looking fleet, IMHO.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
Hopefully by the Dubai Air Show all will be known.

Hmm... I keep thinking that I should go back to Dubai as soon as possible. I wonder if the Dubai Air Show would not make a perfect excuse to do so...  Cool


User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7653 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15402 times:

My opinion, Boeing needs to sit with EK, talk , smile, assure them that they will take their concerns seriously, then continue to get the B-787 out of the door ontime, get its production process up and running, complete the B-748i / F, then focus on the B787-10 or whatever it will be called.

To me this is a case of too many irons in the fire right now. Boeing has over 600+ orders for a a/c that it has not yet produced - flying and in service - , its competitor has already assured other carriers that its next design - A350 - will be larger and more efficient than anything on the market today. Boeing has a larger a/c B-777 with extended range versions which is selling pretty well with slots a couple years out, so even if they commit to the 10 version that EK wants we are still talking about what, 6 - 7 years out? Think they should focus on the now, if they loose this 100 plane and its add ons to Airbus I don't think they will go bankrupt, after all, the B-787 order log dwarfs the A350 log and Airbus is still here and doing business, unless by some law of politics and economics, the same would not apply to Boeing???


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15376 times:

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 6):
Quoting Emirates Skies (Reply 5):
Rumour has it that EK want to replace all of their A332s, A343s, and A345s with the A350 or the 787. I hope Boeing gets this one.

If they ordered the XWB (with some -1000s) they could replace everything apart from the A380 with the same basic type - like a sort of upmarket lo-co!


The A350XWB is obviously the best aircraft to replace the entire A330/340 & 777 fleet @ Emirates

[Edited 2007-07-19 12:54:21]

User currently offlineAutoThrust From Switzerland, joined Jun 2006, 1609 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15226 times:

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
To me it sounds as if Airbus has the perfect product for Emirates needs, while the 787-10 is playing catch up.

Well thats a other way to see it.  Smile (i'm always a pessimist)
However for me it just sounds EK wants the 787 because they have more trust in Boeing (understandable after all issues) to deliver the specs promised and preferred Barrel Method plus GE/RR option. Thats why they dont want rely on Airbus on this very important order.



“Faliure is not an option.”
User currently offlineWINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2831 posts, RR: 68
Reply 16, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15146 times:

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 15):
However for me it just sounds EK wants the 787 because they have more trust in Boeing (understandable after all issues) to deliver the specs promised

Well apart from the lateness, Airbus seem to have achieved all the guarantee's for the A380 program and in some cases even exceeded them. Emirates trust and faith in Airbus is still strong despite delays to the A380 program, this is very apparent as they have placed additional orders/commitments for 12 frames in 2007.  Wink

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 15):
and preferred Barrel Method plus

This could be one possible issue that I suspect will have a big influence.

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 15):
GE/RR option.

I don't think that this is really an issue at this present time. Have both RR and GE committed to supply an engine for the 787-10? How do we not Boeing will not opt to go exclusive on future derivatives?

Regards,
Wings



Aviation Is A Passion.
User currently offlineSlz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 15104 times:

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 15):
However for me it just sounds EK wants the 787 because they have more trust in Boeing (understandable after all issues) to deliver the specs promised and preferred Barrel Method plus GE/RR option. Thats why they dont want rely on Airbus on this very important order.

If they woudn't have trust in Airbus, do you think they'd have placed 2 follow up orders for more A380s this year alone?

I think EK and Airbus' relation is perfectly fine: Airbus had problems with the A380 production due to a well-defined electrical problem, but they have overcome them and the plane itself definitely lives up to the expectations of its customers, so much even EK is clearly thrilled with it (just read the comments and look at their recent orders).

You may also believe EK has a preference for a certain production process (barrel over shells), but I rather think they just have a preference for a lower operating cost really, so provided the A350 can match or beat that of the 787, EK won't bitch on about it (which exactly is what we have seen happening), especially as EK knows that regardless of how good the 787 really is, it's structural design does top out well before the 77W comes in view, so an order for 787s does not give them a platform for this future replacement (contrary to the A350).

Summing al the disadvantages up:
less range
less capacity
less future growth built-in
...
If it would be an Airbus plane we'd be talking about, it wouldn't take long before the well-known comment about giving them away for free would be thrown in....

Oh, and have I mentioned their might be some vacant seats in the EADS board offered to the new large shareholders as from October???

Think about it: EK could be executing their business plan to span the globe with a fleet of 400 widebodies with just 2 tailor-made types from the manufacturer they co-own: the A380 and the A350. How much better can you have it as an airline AND manufacturer?


User currently offlineEmirates Skies From Australia, joined Nov 2001, 171 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 14957 times:

Given that Dubai Airport (owned by the Dubai government, which also owns EK) has bought a 5% stake in EADS, there's another benefit to giving this order to Airbus.

Emirates Skies



Take nothing but photos, leave nothing but footprints
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31414 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 14931 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I offered my own comments on this article in the discussion from yesterday at News Covering B787-10 And Eventual Derivatives (by Aminobwana Jul 18 2007 in Civil Aviation)

User currently offlineMptpa From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14771 times:

I am not sure if EK wants to put all its eggs in the same basket. With 55 A380s and a couple of hundred A350s would be way too risky. Secondly, A350 is still narrower than B777, and with composite barrel/metal frames, they may feel inferior to the B787 in terms of technology, maintainability and passenger comfort. Finally, how would they feel second fiddle to QR since they ARE the launch customer for A350. How does this rivalry play out? What kind of pricing power would Airbus wield knowing that EK is exclusive to Airbus? They would control an extensive market power at EK that once in they may not be able to get out of.

So, EK has an advantage to maintain a dual supplier relationship with A380, B777 and B787 in the lineup. With such a large fleet, commonality argument washes away anyway and having these types would enable EK to tailor their routes and match up the types better.

This is just my opinion.


User currently offlinePhilzh From Switzerland, joined May 2007, 147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 14657 times:

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 17):
EK could be executing their business plan to span the globe with a fleet of 400 widebodies with just 2 tailor-made types

I'm (currently) curious about everything EK, and thus this business plan -- is this (400 widebodies) something known, or just conjecture? It would be a rather sweet order for Airbus or Boeing, of course: 400 all-new widebodies minus say 60-odd A380s: 340 or so A350s or 787-10s... nice!


User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12958 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14492 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 14):
The A350XWB is obviously the best aircraft to replace the entire A330/340 & 777 fleet @ Emirates

I agree with this. Emirates has been purchasing from the larger part of the mid-size market, and will continue to do so.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 17):
Airbus had problems with the A380 production due to a well-defined electrical problem

Actually, it was a series of well-defined management problems:

  • Choosing to not come to a common software standard
  • Choosing to rely on a unwritten piece of software to bridge the two software versions
  • Choosing to not communicate the failure of this software to other parts of the company
  • Choosing to blame the customer's cabin configurations as the culprit instead of the broken software.


No one has ever said there was an electrical issue. From all accounts, the originally designed harnesses worked just fine in the test lab, they just didn't fit into the airplane!

As much as you want to sweep this under the rug, its clear that customers can, should and do have concerns about Airbus's ability to deliver.

Airbus is working through its upper level management reorg, various shareholder issues, the whole Power8 thing, setting up the A350 supply chain, etc. I'm glad Airbus has given itself a long time to EIS on A350, because I think they will need it.

If these issues aren't a concern of someone considering the purchase of 100 airplanes, they really need to find another job!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineFlyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 713 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14476 times:

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 20):
I am not sure if EK wants to put all its eggs in the same basket. With 55 A380s and a couple of hundred A350s would be way too risky.

Isn't that what most American legacy carriers are doing all the time?


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (7 years 5 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14381 times:

Quoting FlyingAY (Reply 23):
Quoting Mptpa (Reply 20):
I am not sure if EK wants to put all its eggs in the same basket. With 55 A380s and a couple of hundred A350s would be way too risky.

Isn't that what most American legacy carriers are doing all the time?

Yes, and I dont think AA or CO have experienced any problems whatsoever in operating and buying from a single manufacturer.


25 Poitin : An excellent suggestion. Given EK's continuing demands on both A and B, it sounds as though they want to play one off on the other. They went through
26 PM : Let me see if I've got this right. Because the A350 is "narrower than B777" it will be "inferior to the 787" "in terms of [...] passenger comfort". M
27 Scbriml : The original suggestion was that EK might not want to have their entire future fleet coming from one manufacturer. Flying AY simply pointed out that
28 Post contains links Stitch : This article in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer has much more meat to it - http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/324247_emiratesboeing19.html As I sai
29 Gunsontheroof : Ummm...source? And why would Emirates want to do that? Many of those aircraft are practically brand-new, and its no secret that Emirates isn't shy ab
30 Poitin : Isn't that true of airlines all around the world? The point is pointless. However, he did say "With 55 A380s and a couple of hundred A350s would be w
31 Post contains images Clickhappy : More of the same Please Boeing, give it just a bit more range, a few more seats, a little more lift, and maybe we will buy it. If Boeing wants to buil
32 Poitin : I suppose if EK wanted to buy -- cash on the barrel head with no refund -- 200 of the 787-1000, it might get Boeing's interest, but to design a longe
33 SEPilot : It's called competition.
34 EI321 : Yes it is! If a customer is important enough manufacturers will sit up and listen. JL & NH on the 787-3 WN on the 73G DL & CO on the 764 (allegedly)
35 Post contains images Kanebear : Performance guarantees? No problem. Match those with an order guarantee and a deposit and we'll get right on it.
36 UAEflyer : Guys Emirates is asking Boeing to go and build the -10, i am 100% sure that EK will not be the exclusive user of the new model. Don't forget that with
37 Post contains images Flysherwood : That's hilarious WINGS! Now if they only actually had a real plane to sell. When is design freeze again?
38 FlyABR : according to a recent entry in wallace's blog, there appears to be two camps chiming in on the 787-10 and what it's capabilities should be: Mike Bair,
39 Post contains images PM : Ah, the old canards are always the best. It may not be frozen yet but it's cold enough for SQ to feel comfortable enough to order a score and for thi
40 Khobar : I didn't know Boeing manufactured the A300. As they say, one learns something new every day, eh? LOL.
41 Post contains images Boeing767-300 :    There is no doubt EK are doing a QF in order to "screw" the successful tenderer as low as possible. You would have to say that Boeing and EK are
42 Stitch : And that may be why EK keeps haranguing Boeing to build the 787-10... The A350 family continues to add MTOW, yet lose range. Mr. Gallois has evidentl
43 Post contains images SNATH : You will find that this is 10-to-1. Tony
44 Post contains images Flysherwood : Ah, but the biggest owner of Airbus jets in the world is unconvinced! And as the largest customer / owner of Airbus jets, Sir Hazy may have them chan
45 Post contains images Flysherwood : Oh one other thing, how many are firm orders and how many are MOU's of the 200+. The single largest purchase of 80 is an MOU at this point.
46 TISTPAA727 : As is said in every EK thread, they just like to hear themselves speak. I do not see this as a sign the order will go to Boeing, but more a sign to Ai
47 Post contains links Dank : Uhhh. No. QR placed a firm order at Paris. According to Airbus as of 6 July, there are 154 firm orders and 100 commitments: http://www.airbus.com/en/
48 Post contains images Scbriml : It would be fine raising your eyebrows if you were actually correct. QR signed a firm order at Paris for 80 A350s, including 20 -1000s (which some he
49 CHRISBA777ER : Bingo. Impressive stuff huh? Thats just smart business sense. I would be very upset if an airline I was a s/h in DIDNT do this.
50 Flighty : Sounds like Dubai Kingdom really loves the A350 and is hoping that Boeing will set up a product just like it. Then, they can have the bidding war.
51 Post contains images SunriseValley : If the market "tanks", and it will at some point for an indeterminate period for anyone of a number of reasons , the 'high flyer" Middle East carriers
52 Lumberton : Given that the government of Dubai purchased a stake in EADS, is there any doubt that the A350 is going to win this order?
53 Stitch : If Dubai thinks the purchase of 100 planes is going to significantly improve the stock price of EADS, Paris should have convinced them otherwise. Not
54 Lumberton : The stock would likely erode further if EK were to be a launch customer for 100 787-10s. IMO, they won't do it and will order the A350. I'm prepared
55 EBJ1248650 : That there will ultimately be a place in the world's airlines for a 787-10LR seems clear, but I'm inclined to agree with others in this forum that su
56 Post contains images Stitch : So they get an even better deal on their shares. EK have ordered over 50 A380s, yet that did nothing to prevent the problem with the deliveries of th
57 Post contains images WINGS : I did mention rumour. and I believe that it is comon sense to expect such replacement of their existing fleet with either the 787 or A350, but curren
58 USAF336TFS : Wings, my friend, I'm usually in agreement with you, but really, have the all targets you mentioned been "met" yet? If we judge it by targets, such a
59 Post contains images Rbgso : I think they will use composite panels instead of fabric......
60 MD-90 : Awfully nice looking? How about boring? Beautiful planes like the A332, A345, and 77W replaced by just one type?
61 Fridgmus : From someone outside the industry. Can Boeing afford to tell EK to take a hike and build the 787-10 for the rest of the airlines and what would the co
62 Aminobwana : Yes.One of a number of reasonsis that the pharaonic and as far I know, unsupported forecast for EK, against Hub competion from a lot of other as Qata
63 Post contains images AutoThrust : Well its not they didn't have a lot of choice after they purchased 45. 12 748 wouldn't offer commonality. Thats a very good and interesting Point. My
64 Stitch : I think RR will offer to power the 787-10 and 787HGWs.
65 EI321 : They dont trust airbus, so they order more of Airbus' most dodgy model before it enters service? Bad excuses everywhere in this thread!
66 Aminobwana : I would say: not bad excuses, but (hopefully unintentional) incomplete quotes !! Was this to long to quote ??
67 ACVitale : Just a quick thought... What would keep Boeing from Developing the 787-10 and then adding another type to the fleet the 787-11 later on. One could sat
68 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...actually it would be bad business decision to link the two together..if EK came to Airbus and said.."our Kingdom owns part of your parent company
69 Post contains images Scbriml : I think there would be a good degree of commonality with the fleet of 748Fs they have on order.
70 Stitch : Nothing, really. It's just time and money. Boeing has plenty of the former. They're starting to run low on the latter...
71 Aminobwana : Not inversely ??? aminobwana
72 Stitch : Boeing is going to be making serious coin for years thanks to all the 787s they will deliver, but all those 787s they have to deliver shrinks the "wi
73 Post contains images PM : Or, to put it another way, doesn't really meet the needs of either. You're not exactly impartial, are you? Which, I guess, is why they haven't attemp
74 Stitch : Unless Airbus wants to offer A330-200s, by default they will pitch the A350-800 for any RFPs looking for a long-range ~225-seater.
75 FlyABR : well, you can't always get want you want...i'm sure boeing will find the appropriate mix of payload/performance/range to satisfy most of the folks se
76 PM : Clearly. But the A358 is shoulder-to-shoulder with the 789. Thus, they have not attempted to match the 788 like-with-like. No more have Boeing attemp
77 Post contains images Iwok : Not to mention mad dogs (before the buyout), E-jets and Bombardiers. And just what would that have done???? They have not meet or exceed targets yet.
78 PM : Well, I think it would have had a lower fuel burn for starters. That wouldn't have hurt sales. Don't be so grudging. If there is a silver lining to t
79 Wsp : Thanks for the quote. Sinking large amounts of money into the 787-10 (especially for extensive modifications to meet EKs range goals) doesn't seem to
80 HughesAirwest : I believe what Mptpa was saying is that with all the problems at Airbus/EADS ie. the power8, A380 issues and designing A350 late because they dimisse
81 WingedMigrator : This paraphrase of Hazy is very interesting, and offers an important clue. Option #1: a 350-seater is what has been discussed around here as the 787-
82 Atmx2000 : When QF says they want a 350 seater, it isn't clear in what configuration. After all they were quoting the capacity of the 787 models when they annou
83 Boeing767-300 : PM you miss the point and its not about being impartial or not but the fact remains that Boeing sold 100s of 787 with no competition. Airbus refused
84 UAEflyer : i believe that the 77W was created to compete with A340, the 787 market should be way different from the 77W.
85 Post contains images Flysherwood : So I guess it doesn't matter to Airbus if Sir Hazy orders the A350 or not?
86 Dank : And that is the same as necessary for credibility? Are you going to tell me that Boeing doesn't care if they get the EK order? And that if they don't
87 Flysherwood : I know many here on A.net are do not agree with this, however, an order from ILFC is a lot more important than an order from EK. Of the 200 or so A35
88 Dank : Ummm, try reading my post. I was calling into question the absurditity of the argument. Wanting orders from a manufacturer does not equal to needing
89 MIT787 : Wow!!! Kool aid drinkers. It blows my mind sometimes when I read what people say on this site. Now, I am a huge Boeing fan, but I would never call an
90 Post contains images Flysherwood : What I am trying to get across is the fact that if EK were to order the A350, Airbus' two newest programs are totally dependent upon one airline for
91 Post contains images Flysherwood : Airbus needs ILFC to buy the A350 a hell of a lot more than Boeing needs EK to buy the 787. It is called 40+ customers ordering 700+ frames by the ti
92 Post contains images Flysherwood : And then PM went silent...
93 Dank : You seem to conveniently ignore the fact that you made a statement that had no basis in reality. That wanting an order is the same as needing one to
94 Flysherwood : Which statement is that Dank?
95 DrExotica : "Kool-Aid drinkers" is merely a very common term applied to people that will blindly support/follow a particular person/company/orthodoxy. It is used
96 Dank : Thanks for your clarification for me. And yes, you got my intent exactly. If I disrespected someone, I'm sorry. cheers. That's the statement that I'm
97 WAH64D : Thats one of the most ridiculous statements I've seen in a long time. The ONLY order that matters is the one that has the most profit and return cust
98 Post contains images PM : Funny exchange of posts! Actually, PM went off to do his day job. I've been offline for 21 hours and I'm going cold turkey! I would offer this one as
99 WingedMigrator : Your numerical exaggeration takes away from your basic point, which has some validity. A bit under a third of A380 orders are for EK. If EK ordered 1
100 Khobar : Does Boeing want the order? Duh... Does Boeing want the order enough to royally eff themselves just to get it? LOL.
101 BAW716 : Ah, excuse me, but how do you know that? Airbus doesn't exactly have the greatest credibility on the planet right now. They can't even get the A380 o
102 PM : Hardly. Four versions of 777 (which is not uncommon; ANA and JAL have the same), three versions of the A330/A340 family (including the A332 and not t
103 Stitch : Ah, excuse me, but how do you know that? Airbus doesn't exactly have the greatest credibility on the planet right now. They can't even get the A380 o
104 SEPilot : Whether or not Boeing builds the 787-10 as EK wants I believe will depend on their plans for Y3. If Y3 is going to cover the size/range combo that EK
105 Aminobwana : At a first glance these appear as valid arguments, which of course create immediately the question: Pls. refer also to my response im the unfortunate
106 SEPilot : Boeing has indicated that Y3 EIS will be about 2020, IIRC. I think Boeing will wait a bit before finalizing it, as well as the 787-10. It will depend
107 Scbriml : Do you really think Boeing will spend $billions developing a completely new plane (not to mention a complete paradigm shift for BWB), aimed at a segm
108 Aminobwana : The 5 years is a figuNews Covering B787-10 And Eventual Derivatives re play: The B744 is a absolete pax-plane and the B748i is just 20 month on the m
109 WAH64D : Its not too big, its just too late. I agree with Scrimbl. The market for VLAs of that size will be gone by the time Boeing gets to market. IMO Boeing
110 Gbfra : It should be remembered that manufacturers generally do not wish to develop new airplanes all the time because this is a very costly enterprise. They
111 Aminobwana : Pls. notice that nobody has decided to bulid a 400-450 pax Y3. I was discussing a possibility !! This said, where the market 400-450 pax will be gone
112 Scbriml : What I'm trying to say is, I don't see Boeing developing a new 450 seater. Sales of passenger 747s total 20 in nearly 5 years. I'm sure the 748i will
113 Aminobwana : I understood this. Are you saying that by 2020 there will be no substantial market by any aircraft over 400 pax, incl, A380 ?? Meaning that such plan
114 BoomBoom : The 787 already has sufficient ROI, something the A380 and A350 can only dream of. Precisely. Which makes one wonder why Airbus built the A380? My pe
115 Post contains images WingedMigrator : Sort of... they haven't made much money from deliveries as of this time. The A380's ROI is a lost cause thanks to the massive production screw-up. Th
116 BoomBoom : How much money has Airbus made on A350 deliveries? And there are no indications that Boeing will not make plenty of money on the 787. My point is the
117 PM : Why insist on deliberately misunderstanding quite simple posts? WingedMigrator was clearly stating that neither Airbus nor Boeing have shipped any A3
118 Scbriml : No. Simply that there will be insufficient sales available to justify spending $billions on a new VLA.
119 Post contains images Scbriml : Amusing how you missed that we were talking about passenger planes, not freighters. For the 748 yes. For a brand new Boeing VLA in 2020? Probably not
120 Scbriml : Today, Boeing has zero ROI on the 787. They've spent and are still spending $billions, only deposits have come in so far. I don't think a break-even
121 WAH64D : The same as 787, zero. It would appear he and many others cannot do as you say. Get a grip son.
122 Justloveplanes : I recall Boeing saying they will build the -10, and it was just a matter of when. They mentioned a Middle East airline as a launch customer. Emirates
123 AirNZ : Sorry, but I don't quite see what actual point you are trying to make. You ask that "of the 200 or so A350 orders, mou's etc... how many airlines are
124 Post contains images BoomBoom : We Are?
125 Post contains images Scbriml : Ha ha, that's funny! You take two qoutes from completely different branches in the same discussion thread, and you try to link them!
126 Atmx2000 : Well, while they can't book it as revenue yet I believe, the deposits on the 787 orders should exceed development costs if airlines are puttnig 1/3 o
127 Aminobwana : Well, neither airlines generally pay 1/3 deposit for deliveries far away nor the price is near $ 75M (see as example LAN, where the net price is exce
128 Scbriml : I think 1/3 sounds pretty high for a deposit placed at order. However, I agree, given the number of sales, the total deposits are not chump change.
129 Post contains images BoomBoom : I didn't have to try very hard, did I? Yes--threads take different branches and I have no problem with that. However, you say we're only talking abou
130 Post contains images Scbriml : The branch of the thread in which you made your amusing comment about me ignoring freighter sales was discussing the passenger size of a potential Y3
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