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Major Airline Hubs That Ban Commuter Props  
User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1939 posts, RR: 13
Posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 6100 times:

I am not sure if any of you have noticed, but there are some Airline Hub airports and some busy airports such as Chicago OHare that notlonger have any Commuter Prop operations. Is this due to a ban on them because they are too "slow" for the pattern or is it something else....

I am thinking that if they had their way, ALL Major airlines would cast off their prop planes propogating the false impressionm that they are somehow unsafe.

So, besides OHare, (and Midway btw) are there any PURE-JET Airline airports in the US?????

Access-Air


Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSwissgabe From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 5266 posts, RR: 33
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 6085 times:

Quoting Access-Air (Thread starter):
So, besides OHare, (and Midway btw) are there any PURE-JET Airline airports in the US?????

Why only restrict it to the US?
Kuala Lumpur does have Jet only operation, all airlines had to move from SZB to KUL but Berjaya Air with its DH7 was able to stay or even had to. There are no regular scheduled prop ops at KUL. If not mistaken, sames goes for SIN.



Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
User currently offlineRJNUT From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1220 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 6048 times:

SFO only restricts access to parking at the main terminal...(can some explain why?) I assume so no workers have danger of being close to props?

But i cant thin kany airport that restricts props, may though, restricts by minimum seating arrangements, or such, but not by means of propulion!


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4050 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 6042 times:

Quoting Access-Air (Thread starter):
So, besides OHare, (and Midway btw) are there any PURE-JET Airline airports in the US?????

I'm not sure if this is the case with either of these as of yet, but LAX, JFK, LGA, EWR as well as ATL should become "Jet only airports" looking at the patterns they must deal with.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineSkyyMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 6023 times:

I don't believe ORD bans prop aircraft. AA started the trend out of ORD quite a few years ago by replacing all of it's prop routes with RJ's, and UA followed suit. A competitive issue entirely. My home airport BNA does not have any current scheduled prop service, and I'm sure there are quite a few others. I am not aware of any US airports that specifically ban props, and the perception that propeller driven aircraft are unsafe is unfounded. Anyone who thinks so should try a ride on a Q400. Quiet, FAST. They will be replacing RJ's in more markets IMO.

User currently offlineDnl65 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6016 times:

The law in the US prohibits banning a specific class or type of aircraft hence there are no such bans here.

User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5967 times:

Quoting Access-Air (Thread starter):
I am not sure if any of you have noticed, but there are some Airline Hub airports and some busy airports such as Chicago OHare that notlonger have any Commuter Prop operations. Is this due to a ban on them because they are too "slow" for the pattern or is it something else....

AA started scaling back turboprop operations at ORD due to the Roselawn incident. Customers liked it more, so other carriers (chiefly UA) had to convert as well, for competitive reasons.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineFreshlove1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5932 times:

Quoting Dnl65 (Reply 5):
The law in the US prohibits banning a specific class or type of aircraft hence there are no such bans here.

PHL does not allow any carrier to fly 19 seat aircraft to or from PHL. Mesa/Air Midwest used to have a huge 1900 operation back in 99' that covered much of the upper East Coast but PHL then decided that the "slot" and "gate" that the 1900's were taking up were better suited for larger aircraft such as a CRJ or Dash-8 so a "ban" if you want to call it that was put in place and Mesa/Air Midwest stopped flying to all of those cities.



MDW has 1900 service from Big Sky and 1900 service from Air Midwest.


User currently offlineFLYGUY767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5913 times:

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):
I'm not sure if this is the case with either of these as of yet, but LAX, JFK, LGA, EWR as well as ATL should become "Jet only airports" looking at the patterns they must deal with.

As much as I agree with you on that point, I think nothing will change in the United States regarding the issue of banning prop equipment from such heavy traffic airports..

United Express has the largest operation of prop equipment out of Los Angeles(LAX):

Bakersfield, Carlsbad, Fresno, Imperial, Inyokern, Modesto, Monterey, Ontario, Orange County, Oxnard, Palm Springs, San Diego, San Jose, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, Santa Maria, St. George, Yuma

American Eagle has the following prop equipment operations out of Los Angeles(LAX):

Fresno, Monterey, San Diego, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara

Horizon has the following prop equipment operations out of Los Angeles(LAX):

Boise, Eugene, Eureka/Arcata, Medford, Redding, Redmond/Bend, Reno/Tahoe, Santa Rosa, Sun Valley

I have not a clue as to what any of the above airlines would do in the case that such a ruling would be handed down.

At current I am under the belief that JFK is all jet equipment, as the last of the Delta Prop operations has ended or will be ending very soon. As far as LGA it has a hearty number of US Airways Express prop operations, and Newark has a sole operator of prop operations which I believe is US Airways Express as well? If I am incorrect please let me know.


-JD


User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5896 times:

No bans. I dont think the major/legacy carriers here are going to dump them anytime soon since the economics are great. I think CO just ordered some 400Q's for CO express this year in fact.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5883 times:

Quoting Access-Air (Thread starter):
(and Midway btw)

There have been Beech 1900 operations at Midway during 2007. Also, there are loads of private props flying in there on a regular basis. A friend of mine recently flew his Skyhawk in there.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 7):
PHL does not allow any carrier to fly 19 seat aircraft to or from PHL. Mesa/Air Midwest used to have a huge 1900 operation back in 99' that covered much of the upper East Coast but PHL then decided that the "slot" and "gate" that the 1900's were taking up were better suited for larger aircraft such as a CRJ or Dash-8 so a "ban" if you want to call it that was put in place and Mesa/Air Midwest stopped flying to all of those cities.

Isn't this a USAirways rule for their hub ops, and not a Philadelphia rule?


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5863 times:

Quoting Access-Air (Thread starter):
Is this due to a ban on them because they are too "slow" for the pattern or is it something else....

Slow for the pattern?

Most of the t-props being flown by regional airlines are not too slow for the pattern when landing for sure.....departure, now that is another story in most cases.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5836 times:

Let's also remember that SJU has an enormous prop operation, and the combination of short runways, heavy cargo loads, and hot conditions make Caribbean operations very poor for RJ's. Most AAEagle ATR's have migrated to Puerto Rico, and are serving quite well there.

Quote:
United Express has the largest operation of prop equipment out of Los Angeles(LAX):

Bakersfield, Carlsbad, Fresno, Imperial, Inyokern, Modesto, Monterey, Ontario, Orange County, Oxnard, Palm Springs, San Diego, San Jose, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara, Santa Maria, St. George, Yuma

Where all EM2's go to die.  rotfl 

Until another plane as economical for these routes comes along, this old vibrating soldier will continue on faithfully in California.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1939 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5826 times:

Oops, Sorry I forgot about the Mesa Ops with 1900s into Midway.....I dont thknk it will be lasting too much longer tho....

As for PHL banning 19 seat planes, well thats rediculous. You are then smaller communities that have legitimate air traffic/passenger loads that cannot fill a 30 plus passenger plane that they be served. I doubt that if you barely fill Beech 1900 or similar, how could an airline be expected to use a larger aircraft???

I just think that the airlines and their regional partners have all forgotten all the smaller communites that they started in. Some of those cities have been dropped from route maps not because they arent important but because the commuters morphed into regionals and shed their small props. In some cases, to justify leaving smaller communities regionals will purposefully run poorly timed flights that no one can use to "demonstrate" how poor the loads are. Believe me, I have seen this in my own community with three airlines that pulled this same crap prior to pulling service... Ozark, Britt and Great Lakes. They failed to put any real effort into marketing and selling their product. Taking for granted that eveyone knows there is a commuter airline in town just simply wont do the trick....How do you thnk fast food businesses keep their clients? They advertise and they listen to the needs of their clients.

Anyway, Id imagine that if they could alot more airline hubs would love to have Pure-Jet oeprations...As sad day when that happens...

Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
User currently offlineHawaiian717 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3192 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5731 times:

Quoting RJNUT (Reply 2):
SFO only restricts access to parking at the main terminal

This doesn't seem to be true anymore. United's website no longer shows the bus to the commuter terminal departing from gate 87A, so they must be parking the Brasilias somewhere at Terminal 3.


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5420 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5704 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 8):
At current I am under the belief that JFK is all jet equipment,

CO Connection has a Q200 flying CLE-JFK



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5693 times:

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 8):
At current I am under the belief that JFK is all jet equipment, as the last of the Delta Prop operations has ended or will be ending very soon. As far as LGA it has a hearty number of US Airways Express prop operations, and Newark has a sole operator of prop operations which I believe is US Airways Express as well?

EWR will soon have Q400's from CO as well. However I don't know if US is still running Dashes into EWR... they might be back to RJ's. US changes that PIT-EWR schedule daily it seems anymore.


User currently offlineChase From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5676 times:

Quoting Access-Air (Thread starter):
Chicago OHare that notlonger have any Commuter Prop operations

I'm too lazy to post a link, but there's another thread active right now about a regular VPZ-ORD charter on a prop...


User currently offlinePoitin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5639 times:

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 4):
I am not aware of any US airports that specifically ban props, and the perception that propeller driven aircraft are unsafe is unfounded. Anyone who thinks so should try a ride on a Q400. Quiet, FAST. They will be replacing RJ's in more markets IMO.

Anyone who flew in a Beech 1900D will fully understand why turboprops became so unpopular, but the advent of active noise cancellation on aircraft like the Q400 and even the Airbus 400M will, with oil prices going ever higher, certainly lead to the return of turboprops to the regional airlines.


User currently offlineTsnamm From United States of America, joined May 2005, 628 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5639 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 15):
CO Connection has a Q200 flying CLE-JFK

DL is still operating DH8 at JFK...I know its supposed to end sometime soon, but they're still here, going to BWI and PHL among others.


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5633 times:

Quoting Chase (Reply 17):

I'm too lazy to post a link, but there's another thread active right now about a regular VPZ-ORD charter on a prop...

SBN-IND-EVV? (by SBNair3022 Jul 19 2007 in Civil Aviation) However, the VPZ-ORD charter (on a Beech Baron - Piston twin not even a turboprop) goes to the FBO, not the commercial terminal. The FBO then transports any pax for connections over to the terminal they need to go to.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 18):
Anyone who flew in a Beech 1900D will fully understand why turboprops became so unpopular,

They're better than a Saab 340. I love the Beech 1900, with the cockpit door open.


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5801 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5598 times:

Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 14):
This doesn't seem to be true anymore. United's website no longer shows the bus to the commuter terminal departing from gate 87A, so they must be parking the Brasilias somewhere at Terminal 3.

United moved the UAX operation at SFO to the concourse "thumb", gates 76 to 79.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5514 times:

Once Freedom parks the Dash 8s, JFK will be almost prop free - only the CommutAir JFK-CLE Q200s will remain.


What now?
User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1939 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5427 times:

Quoting Poitin (Reply 18):
Anyone who flew in a Beech 1900D will fully understand why turboprops became so unpopular,

Oh good grief, if you think a Beech 1900 is loud, did you ever fly on one of the older Swearingen Metroliners with the short wings and the 3 bladed props.....talk about mind numbing...I love to fly on prop planes but the Metro II takes the cake for loud prop plane.....Of course for my flight I purposefully took the seat right next to the prop so that I could make my audio tape recording.....The real annoying part of the flight was when they turned on the prop sych....that just made the engines go into a sort of drone.....When they turned it back off it was better at least with the intermittent back and fourth sound the props would make.

Like someone said previously, because of the insufficient amount of coverage on the wing leading edges of deice boots on the ATR 42/72 series, that resulted in the Haloween 1994 crash in Roselawn, Indiana, people freakewd out even more about props.

I would say that any airport within a 200-300 mile radius of a Hub airport such as OHare does not need the use of Regional Jets. Props will do just fine.
Unfortunately when you let people get used to a certain type of aircraft on a given route and then take it away because you are using something that is too expensive to operate, you will have a hard time of convincing passengers to get back into a Turboprop. I guess you could say the same thing about how mainline flights have been taken and replaced with Regioinal Jets....However I would bet that people would gladly welcome mainline flights over RJs......

I guess this is the reason I dont find anything too awfully exciting about regional airlines these days....

Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
User currently offlineFreshlove1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5423 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 10):
Isn't this a USAirways rule for their hub ops, and not a Philadelphia rule?

I believe it may have been a combination of both with this decision (PHL) but from what I can remember it was more of an airport decision rather then a US decision. They have 1900's at their CLT hub and also in PHX.


25 Alias1024 : What do you mean by the patterns they must deal with? Please explain why these airports should be jet only.
26 Poitin : Fortunately no, I never had the pleasure. The Beech 1900 was bad enough. I do remember one memorial flight in a Bristol Brittannia. From JFK to LGW b
27 Tornado82 : And PIT. But neither PIT nor CLT are anywhere near as congested for both gates and airfield capacity as PHL. However all of this is not for long. Air
28 OzarkD9S : There are restrictions at DCA. But it's a reverse ban, the 767-200 was the largest a/c certified to operated there, but no airline ever scheduled one
29 Freshlove1 : And rumor has it that Gulfstream is going to be flying those routes (FKL-PIT, DUJ-PIT, AHN-CLT, CLT-LWB and possibly LNS-PIT) with 1900's. This all h
30 Seb146 : I can't imagine an airport banning props. I guess living in the West gives me that perspective. Pendleton (PDT) was the airport I grew up next to. It
31 Tornado82 : As I said, west of the Mississippi. It hinges on them winning the EAS contract too, although I think it's now a one-horse race.
32 Freshlove1 : You are correct. My bad. Geography was never a strong point. Good thing I am not a pilot or who the hell knows where I would end up.
33 WestIndian425 : Flying in and out of there, I haven't seen Peidmont come into EWR. As it stands now, no one serves EWR with turboprops, though change is planned with
34 Post contains images HowSwedeitis : That irritates me... smaller, more economical commuter planes should have the right to land at these airports. Have ATC set up their own pattern for p
35 Tornado82 : Piedmont was running at least one PIT-EWR frequency for USAirways earlier this year. And considering the fact that the Q400's are going to be nearly
36 747fan : Yep - they'll be out of JFK on August 21. I didn't know CO Connection operated props into JFK - they must've started fairly recently.
37 WestIndian425 : Even we can't do 11/29 as much as before, and from what I hear, the staffing at the tower is the problem (weights were never the issue. We'd always r
38 Bohica : When I worked for Westair in 1989-91 in SFO we operated out of 76 to 79. It's interesting to see that UA has gone back to "square one".
39 Flyboy97502 : Have you been on a Q400?
40 Post contains images HowSwedeitis : I sure have!!
41 Baron52ta : This is the case because in the US there are other airports close by for the smaller slower commuters to access and it is all to do with maintanence
42 Access-Air : At One Point Eastern wanted to put their A300s into DCA on their old Shuttle flights but the FAA said no even tho it could get in and out of the airp
43 Tornado82 : The new Q400 is a rocket for takeoffs, and actually beats the RJ's to an FL250 cruise level.
44 FATFlyer : An old Westie? Always glad to hear some of you are still around. I did many Bandit flights out of FAT in the 80s and early 90s. I miss the old non-hu
45 Olympus69 : It always amuses me how youngsters (under 65) who have never made long flights in piston engined airliners talk about turboprops being loud. Having p
46 ATCT : Back when I worked for Regions Air (Im almost ashamed to admit that) we applied and were to be awarded the EAS service to Lancaster, PA. (LNS). We wer
47 Post contains images C680 : IIRC that had more to do with the old terminal facilities at DCA than the performance of the A300. The old shuttle facilities at DCA had a hard time
48 A340313X : Do KL's F50s still come to LHR? I'm pretty sure they are/were the only regular prop service to LHR.
49 Wdleiser : bring back the props, Props can use runways that RJ's cannot, props help ground traffic and flow alot.
50 Freshlove1 : LMAO! you got to be kidding. Regions was the joke of the industry they couldn't keep their Saabs/J31's running let alone even think of getting any Q4
51 AirlineBrat : UAX also operates out of 87A which has stairs and an elevator. While I was on my last trip through SFO I took the BART into SF and while we were pull
52 Tornado82 : Unfortunately Colgan ain't much better. Why oh why couldn't they have given that Q400 contract to Commutair, considering they were taking on Q200's a
53 Post contains images HowSwedeitis : Hahaha, SEA-GEG for me! Horizon Yea?
54 Bond007 : With the exception of a few A.net members, most, if not all pax, not only don't care whether they fly jet or turboprop... they have absolutely no ide
55 Post contains images TheGreatChecko : I can tell you its almost painful to have to slow a 1900 down more than 5-10 miles out. Half the time, I end up having to slow down for jets because
56 Post contains images Flyboy97502 : We still have some birds in the 74 seat config, that would give you that 36". Aircraft 400-417? I'm not at work at the moment and which bird is that
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