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Slate.com Writer Calls TAM 'world's Worst Airline'  
User currently offlineRemcor From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 358 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 9924 times:

Now I've never flown TAM, but I have flown in Brazil and elsewhere, and I find it hard to believe that TAM is worse than say, Tajikistan airlines, where, for instance, I've seen large cracks in the engine cowling upon entering the plane.

http://www.slate.com/id/2170727/nav/tap3/

And before these two accidents this past year Brazil didn't have that bad of a safety record.

[Edited 2007-07-20 19:48:42]

81 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9823 times:

OK, on what basis does the guy consider JJ the "world's worst airline"? I haven't flown them, so I can't pass any judgement on them. Why does he make such a ridiculous statement?

User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3357 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9808 times:

Looks like we just found a contender for 'World's Worst Slate.com Writer'...  redflag 

User currently offlineUK_Dispatcher From United Arab Emirates, joined Dec 2001, 2595 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9790 times:

To call TAM the world's worst airline is pretty small-minded. Maybe she should try the rest of the world's airlines before coming out with such a sweeping statement.

The article is sensationalist self-indulgence. Who gives two hoots about her and her other half's travel woes.


User currently offlineBoch From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9774 times:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
OK, on what basis does the guy consider JJ the "world's worst airline"?

Her boyfriend told her:

Quote:
My boyfriend ...(blah blah blah)... still insists that TAM was the worst air travel experience he's ever had.



KU, KL, PK, CO, AA, US, UA, WN, AS, FL, BR, MH, KE, OZ, PR, 5J
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9773 times:

Feel free to flame this idiotic writer here:

http://fray.slate.com/discuss/forums...4/ShowForum.aspx?ArticleID=2170727

Maybe if enough people post well reasoned rebuttals of this twit's article she'll never write for Slate again...



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9773 times:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/operator/airline.php?var=5196

This is only TAM's second accident.

Now, as for the article, TAM is the worst airline in the world, but mostly he b****es about Brazil's state of aviation. Exactly how that makes TAM the worst airline, I don't know. But hey, if it gets Slate his fifteen minutes of fame, well, it's a semi-free country!  hissyfit 



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineCageyjames From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9735 times:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 5):
Maybe if enough people post well reasoned rebuttals of this twit's article she'll never write for Slate again...

It is an opinion piece, not an article.

No one ever said you had to be informed to have an opinion.  Yeah sure


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9705 times:

Quoting Boch (Reply 4):
Her boyfriend told her

OK, so basing one's journalistic opinion on that of his or her significant other is professional? Whatever happened with real investigative journalism?


User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9705 times:

Slate is an opinion online magazine. She wrote an article about her experiences, gave it a shocking headline so people would click on it, and viola...it worked. I guarantee you she could care less about A.net people.

Frankly, after having read more than one experience like hers, I can't blame her. It's not the kind of situation business people would stand for here, but in Brazil no one seems to bat an eye at it. If they don't find ways to manage the transportation issues down there better, it will stunt the growth of what could be a vibrant economy. Money doesn't come to those who are forced to stand in line for 8 hours a day.



There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9691 times:

Quoting Cageyjames (Reply 7):
It is an opinion piece, not an article.

No one ever said you had to be informed to have an opinion.

Doesn't matter what kind of article it is.. it deserves to be flamed and she deserves to not work for that sort of crap. I'm sorry but that's capitalizing on misfortune for her own personal gain. The ambulance chaser reporter type... They rank right there with lawyers IMHO (in other words just below roaches)

PS: espiers@earthlink.net if you wanna send her a more personal message  Smile

[Edited 2007-07-20 20:37:22]


I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9668 times:

TAM is a decent airline.

User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 41
Reply 12, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9591 times:

Quoting Remcor (Thread starter):
and I find it hard to believe that TAM is worse than say, Tajikistan airlines



Quoting Boch (Reply 4):
Her boyfriend told her:

Quote:
My boyfriend ...(blah blah blah)... still insists that TAM was the worst air travel experience he's ever had.

So, maybe her boyfriend did have a bad experience but here's a whacky idea - just bear with me for a moment and stop me if it gets too complicated. If you want to call an airline the Worst in the World, don't you have to know something about most, if not all, the other airlines in the world? Too far-fetched?


User currently offlineWe're Nuts From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9532 times:

Slate.com should send her on permenant assignment to Indonesia.


Dear moderators: No.
User currently offlineLuisca From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9492 times:

Copy of email I wrote to her.

I am writing this email in disgust at your total lack of respect for facts and what seems to be your very personal attack against TAM. I have never flown TAM in my life, and I am not involved with or affiliated to TAM; but as a pilot I am worried about the effects that sensationalist articles like your have on our industry.

I can believe that you may have been inconvenienced by your travel experience with TAM, and you may be angry with how you were treated and maybe the airline was disorganized in its handling, but to link this to the safety of one of the largest airlines in Latin America (if not the largest) is ridiculous and irresponsible.

You show a total disregard for facts or for even trying to understand what you obviously do not know anything about. TAM has a marvelous safety record; started in 1961 it has only had 2 fatal air crashes in the last 20 years, and one incident that caused a death. The first accident, flight 402 out of Sao Paulo was caused by mechanical failure of the thrust reverser that deployed on take off; in this situation there was nothing the pilot could have done and the airport was not responsible for this.

In your article you mention that Congonhas has to short of a runway, but this runway length is not unheard of, and Congonhas is NOT Sao Paulo’s international airport as you probably know, so it does not deal with wide body traffic and although more runway length would be desirable it is not required for safe operation. Congonhas’ problem has and continues to be the fact that it is surrounded by the city, with no overrun areas. If you remember the southwest accident in Chicago Midway you will notice that the same thing can happen in the US.

The fact that you mention that the pilots tried to take off again has not yet been proven, but if they did this is a perfectly normal procedure called a go around, practiced by every single pilot since their first few hours of training and is a procedure that occurs thousands of times every single day all over the world.

Accidents are always a chain of problems leading to a catastrophic outcome, reports of non functioning thrust reversers (which are not required for landing and are not counted with even when they are working), plus a runway that was not grooved, plus the weather conditions are all things that most likely led up to this horrible accident.

Every pilot calculates how much runway he needs before he lands, and the airport itself has calculations that determine what airplanes can and can not land at said airport; unfortunately as I stated above, a series of problems led to this horrible accident.

My point in this email is to ask that if you have any journalistic integrity you ask that that article be removed from the internet, because it is insulting to the entire aviation community and to the victims and family members of this flight.


User currently offlineSevenair From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2001, 1728 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9481 times:

Ok this guy girl clearly hasn't flown Ryanair.

[Edited 2007-07-20 21:12:15]

User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9472 times:

Quoting Luisca (Reply 14):
Copy of email I wrote to her.

Very well said.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9472 times:

Quoting David L (Reply 12):
So, maybe her boyfriend did have a bad experience but here's a wacky idea - just bear with me for a moment and stop me if it gets too complicated. If you want to call an airline the Worst in the World, don't you have to know something about most, if not all, the other airlines in the world? Too far-fetched?

Not for an opinion piece, no. Her article was relating a terrible travel experience that had some level of relation to a recent tragic accident that was making headlines. No amount of bashing her for being inaccurate will change the fact that it is only an opinion piece.

It's amazing that A.netters react like this, since that is essentially ALL THE SITE IS ABOUT. People writing up their own opinion pieces and then getting flamed by OTHER people who want to write their own opinion pieces.  Yeah sure

Of course, that's just my opinion...

 innocent   laughing 



There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3192 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9437 times:

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 17):
No amount of bashing her for being inaccurate will change the fact that it is only an opinion piece.

It's amazing that A.netters react like this, since that is essentially ALL THE SITE IS ABOUT.

I believe you are missing the problem that many of us have with her article. It's not her 'opinion' that's the issue. It's the fact that she is relating incovenience while travelling directly to safety, in additions to making assumptions about the accident's cause and the pilots' actions.

The latter two get you flamed for days if you do them here. So we are only holding her to same standard that we hold our own opinions to. Additionally, while she entitled to her opinion, we are equally entitled to call BS on her all day long.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 41
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9417 times:

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 17):
Not for an opinion piece, no

That's not the point. She can say "it's crap" but not that it's "the Worst Airline in the World" without knowing how it compares to others. If you simply mean that she's entitled to her opinion, I'll agree but remind you that we're also entitled to call it BS.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17510 posts, RR: 45
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9417 times:

She hasn't flown Faucett Silly


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9393 times:

Quoting Luisca (Reply 14):
Copy of email I wrote to her.

Well written e-mail. Please keep us posted on her response.  thumbsup 


User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9368 times:

They have this one accident-terrible, to be sure, and some armchair QB calls them the world's worst carrier?

Again, I know not much about them, either, but talk about a shotgun response!

Quoting David L (Reply 19):
If you simply mean that she's entitled to her opinion, I'll agree but remind you that we're also entitled to call it BS.



Quoting Luisca (Reply 14):

Outstanding letter. Well done!


User currently offlineSilver764 From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9308 times:

Great letter!

She can have all the opinions she wants to have but when she tries to tie those opinions to the safety of an airliner and crash of an airliner, she better have some facts.


User currently offlineMandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6866 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (7 years 2 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 9309 times:

Shove her on the next Kabo Air flight and wake her up to reality !  Smile

J/K



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
25 Post contains links Cageyjames : Huh? How is an opinion piece anything but an opinion? Flame her all you want though, that is what these are designed to do. Now I agree with you ther
26 Osiris30 : No.. They are not the same. She's entitled to her opinion. She's NOT entitled to having it published. Big difference (and apparently lost on you). Ha
27 Cageyjames : Are you kidding me? The first step to censorship is what you are proposing. You do realize why she is published there? It isn't because of an honor o
28 Osiris30 : Cry me a river... There's a HUGE difference between censorship and responsible publishing. What was published was NOT responsible. Period. End of sto
29 N844AA : I read Slate pretty regularly, and when I first saw that headline, I thought, "Wow, this is going to be a controversy on Airliners.net about five minu
30 N844AA : And the families would have lost. It's hard to prove an emotional distress tort.
31 Arrow : Bingo. I've read worse than this in the trip reports. She had a terrible experience with this airline and she's voicing her opinion after a crash. Gi
32 Cageyjames : She is a blogger, what kind of well written "article" are you looking for here? She gets paid because people like her writing. I've never been a fan
33 Post contains images Osiris30 : Had that piece been about an accident in the US you can bet that sentence would have been editted out. And you would have been left the the usual 'cr
34 Luisca : She has responded Hi XXXXX - thanks for your email. I never suggested that TAM was unsafe; I suggested that they were operationally incompetent on the
35 FLYGUY767 : I am very sorry but I find the above response to be both rude and offensive to the nation of Brasil as a whole. Before posting things about other cou
36 N844AA : It should have been caught from the perspective of basic human decency. But I think you and I basically agree in this respect.
37 Osiris30 : Seeing as MSN.Com and Slate.Com both picked up, something higher than it was. Which blows my mind.. perhaps it's a more a statement on how pathetic s
38 Trekster : Got a feeling her email inbox is goin to be getting filled fast Sent her an email to both address's asking for a response, doubt i will get one
39 Osiris30 : I would respond to that one point specifically.. and tell her that her SMUG feelings are offensive.. and that perhaps she might wish to READ what she
40 PPVRA : I've never had a bad experience with TAM. And I've flown quite a variety of airlines.
41 Trekster : I apologize for this automatic reply to your email. To control spam, I now allow incoming messages only from senders I have approved beforehand. If yo
42 Arrow : Published is published. Who pays is irrelevant. The opinions on A.net are available to be read by anyone who clicks on the link. There has been a hug
43 Cageyjames : Possibly because MSN and Slate have an agreement with Salon.com. And I bet the folks on here clicking on the link making it popular doesn't have a th
44 Post contains images Osiris30 : Skipping everything till this one cause I think we're in general agreement Not make or break, but impact unduly, possibly. Well I think we can agree t
45 Trekster : Hi Daniel - thanks for your email. I'm a frequent airline traveler, and so is my boyfriend, the aforementioned travel writer, whose assignments have t
46 Post contains images Cageyjames : This is what happens with the general public gets involved with aviation. Of course she should know about poor customer service being from New York.
47 Post contains links Luisca : Quoting Trekster (Reply 41): To control spam, I now allow incoming messages only from senders I have approved beforehand. Shes probably getting emaile
48 Trekster : Good response there. I sent a follow up email, but no response as yet. Kinda surpirsed i got a reply so fast
49 Viscount724 : Your data is incomplete. They have had 8 fatal accidents since 1979. 1 - A320 3 - F-100 1 - F-27 3 - EMB110 They're listed twice in Aviation-Safety.n
50 Luisca : I said in the last 20 years, I check airdisaster.com and they show one were the fuselage failed in flight, 1 dead and the F100 in sao paulo and now t
51 Dellatorre : Out of this only 1 represents a total disaster. IIRC, the other two F-100 accidents were: A bomb that exploded on a passenger seat (window) that caus
52 Viscount724 : No, not major, but they could easily have been. They also had an incident last August where the main passenger door on a Fokker 100 opened and separa
53 Aa757first : She is if Slate.com is willing to publish it. I wouldn't. Her reply seems pretty reasonable. Please. 95% of everyone flying doesn't care about the th
54 ULMFlyer : There are a total of 6 F-100 incidents/accidents listed on ASN: 1. 31-OCT-1996 PT-MRK, 95 fatalities on board + 4 on the ground. Crashed on take-off
55 Post contains images HowSwedeitis : Sensationalism at it's worst. Not a whole lot about auto-safety with car crashes, but when a plane goes down, suddenly your Evil Kanevil the next tim
56 Dellatorre : your point being???? I think it's preatty clear what I meant by major accident.!!!! Those are the main reason TAM is phasing out their F100's. They h
57 Akizidy214 : Elizabeth Spiers who? Her 2 cents are not worth 2 cents. She should fly US airlines more. I have flown TAM many times and not once been late. Many of
58 Post contains links Positiverate : Here's the best response on the Slate site; "As an airline pilot and air travel writer (I write a column about flying and travel for Salon.com, and my
59 Post contains links Maverick747 : Putting face to the article http://www.elizabethspiers.com/about.html
60 Post contains images HowSwedeitis : Here Here!! Bad move pissing off TAM (And Aviation) lovers!!!!
61 Luisca : " target=_blank>http://www.elizabethspiers.com/about.html Shes HOT, such a shame...
62 Post contains images Plunaaircanada : she got owned plunaaircanada
63 HowSwedeitis : Yea, but Faucett was declared bankrupt and ceased operations on November 15, 1999... TAM still flies. But TAM is a WHOLE LOT better than Faucett was!
64 CV990 : Hi! When I see people talking about an airline based on an accident it's impossible to say much more right? I think most of the aviation enthusiasts e
65 Post contains images Aloges : That sums up my opinion in a nutshell. Of course, my experience is null and void when compared to that of Ms Spiers' boyfriend but it's been pleasant
66 Post contains images HowSwedeitis : I like that! See, I think a lot of us A-netters make the best out of little things. Mrs. Spiers seems to be rather negative in her assessment.
67 SkyyMaster : I've had three what I would call very bad flights on JetBlue. Think if I submit an article to Slate calling them the world's worst airline it would ge
68 Post contains images OHLHD : I have flown them actually 11 times and it is the BS of the day what this writer presents. They are by no mean bad at all. Without any exception I onl
69 FlySSC : Third : 10.31.1996 : TAM Linhas Aereas Fokker F-100 PT-MRK - Sao Paulo, Brazil - The aircraft crashed on takeoff from Sao Paulo's intercity Congonhas
70 EDICHC : [quote=Cageyjames,reply=27]Are you kidding me? The first step to censorship is what you are proposing.[/quote Even in parts of society where the right
71 Post contains images Usair320 : Once again the media at it's finest..... . When a similar situation happend to AA 1420 in LIT you did'nt hear them calling AA the worlds worst airline
72 Post contains images David L : I was responding to the comment I quoted. Hmm... that name rings a bell.
73 TACAA320 : Who´s Elizabeth Spiers?
74 Cageyjames : One of the founding editors of Gawker.com. That is how she has become "popular".
75 787KQ : The writer is an idiot. Having flown TAM many times, I can say that it is without question far better than most American airlines. The service is bett
76 Post contains images Kevi747 : Quote: "So Tuesday, when a TAM Linhas Aereas Airbus A320 on an inbound domestic route skidded off the São Paulo airport runway, tried to take off aga
77 C010T3 : I always laugh about that, but I do feel sorry for the cow.
78 AirframeAS : Someone should send this thread to Miss Spiers so she can see what she started.... The media never gets it right in aviation. Its so sad. We get no re
79 Longhornmaniac : Hey all, I too am disgusted with this piece, and just sent this email: Ms. Spiers, I must wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment that TAM is the
80 FLYGUY767 : Fully agreed on both of the above statements. Instead of the quasi-blogger/journalist writing about TAM she should have focused her energy on the fal
81 Mtb555 : Luisca, excellent letter. That article was outrageous. What further compounds what an awful letter it is is the timing. How do you write about the fau
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