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Used 777s For Delta If Alitalia Liquidates?  
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6446 posts, RR: 2
Posted (7 years 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10654 times:

I am wondering, if Alitalia liquidates (which hopefully won't happen), is there a possible chance that Delta could acquire some or all of Alitalia's 777-200ERs? Even though that any brand new 777 for Delta would either be a 777-200LR or 777-300ER, some used 777-200ERs from Alitalia might be a cheaper option. Alitalia's 777-200ERs are GE-powered. Even though Delta's current 777-200ERs are RR-powered, Delta is acquiring some GE-powered 777-200LRs, and because of that, commonality won't be a major issue.

While I would not like to see Alitalia liquidate, I am just considering the possibilities.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
95 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10604 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
s there a possible chance that Delta could acquire some or all of Alitalia's 777-200ERs?

Yes, as it's possible for any airline that wants and can afford triple sevens if the planes go on the market.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Even though that any brand new 777 for Delta would either be a 777-200LR or 777-300ER,

-300ER?

M


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6446 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 week 4 days ago) and read 10569 times:

Quoting ChiGB1973 (Reply 1):
-300ER?

Yes, if Delta's international capacity continues to increase, I wouldn't be suprised if Delta were to order some 777-300ERs. I would be quite suprised though if Delta were to acquire some 747s or A380s.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10535 times:

Think CO.......CO's 772ERs are powered by the same GE engines as the AZ aircraft are equipped with; if anyone makes a fast move for the Altialia 772ERs, I think that it would be CO.

With regard to DL, while anything is possible, their 772ERs are RR powered and the 772LRs (and potential 773ERs) will be GE powered....the GE powered 772ER airplanes from Altialia would add a third variant to the 777 fleet. Having so many variants of the 777 (each in small numbers for now) would probably not make much economic sense for DL. Another thing to consider.....many think that DL has un-announced commitments for more 772LRs and 773ERs; DL is under some pressure from Boeing to take additional aircraft (DL has deferred and modified its orders with Boeing many many times in the past years as DL was having problems and when DL was reorganizing) and may be focusing on new build aircraft from Boeing in the near-term future to fulfill its obligations under its agreements with Boeing.

Time will tell.


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12410 posts, RR: 37
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10522 times:

I don't see Delta going for anything bigger than 777s; indeed, I would be quite surprised if they went for -300ERs; I would expect them to go for -200LRs and/or more -200ERs. AZ's aircraft will certainly be tempting, even though DL now has RR Trents.

Wouldn't the AZ aircraft be more attractive to Continental, or even Air France, given that they are GE powered. Maybe even KL might be interested. Whoever takes them, I doubt if they'll be homeless for long.


User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10410 times:

They will be gone before you can say Jack Flash.

Lots of arilines want 777 right now.....CO/DL/KL/RG/JJ....aybe even BA would snap them up



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10375 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):

There is no way DL will order the A380


User currently offlineLijnden From Netherlands, joined Apr 2003, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10323 times:
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I guess they will be parked first for a while under the currator pending upon location of planes at the time of BK. Same happens all the time (Swissair, Sabena, Varig, Braniff, Eastern). This period might take a few days up to many months. Other factors that play a role are the country of registration, claims on aircraft (e.g. fueling companies or ground handling companies might keep a plane grounded with the help of local courts untill bills are paid).


Be kind to animals!
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10315 times:

Three carriers will probably never again operate a 4-engined aircraft.....American, Continental & Delta. The 747 & A380 are simply too big for them. Perhaps, and maybe, the 773 might find its way into the legacies. Alitalia's 777s being GE-powered, would go to any carriers needing 777s the most, whether they have an existing fleet of GEed 777s or being a new aircraft type within their fleet. DL won't want them unless they're 777LRs or RR-powered 772s. Just my 2 cents.
Regards.



"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8664 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10302 times:

Who owns the T7's? Also, DL might acquire the 763ER if the deal is good. The only way I can DL getting these if they can do easy MX on them.

Hunter



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3924 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10273 times:

there has long been talk about picking up AZ 777's..............as was the RG 777's that were compatible with us.


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineCO787EWR From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10273 times:

I think CO would grab them before DL, are the AZ 777's the same MTOW as CO, that might be a problem.

[Edited 2007-07-21 00:06:39]

User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2364 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 10201 times:

Well, pretty soon, won't Singapore start letting go of a few 777-200ERs when their A330-300s arrive?

User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4745 posts, RR: 45
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10158 times:

DL isn't currently interested in SQs 777s as the ones that will be up soon are high-time birds (ie. fly regional SE Asia).

As for AZs, while in theory it would add an incremental type to the fleet - the frame is the frame. The GE94s offer some degree (albeit limited) of commonality with the GE110s.

Remember, DL is no stranger to opping multiple engine types on fleets - 767s come to mind (just under 45% are PW while the rest are GE). Adding used 777s to the fleet helps in uplift capacity.

That being said, I haven't heard any rumblings on interest in AZs birds, but what do I know...



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineBlueFlyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3936 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10158 times:
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That is, assuming that the Italian government doesn't "arrange" the bankruptcy the way the Belgian and Swiss governments have intervened for Sabena and Swissair respectively.

My best is on most, if not all, of the Alitalia 777s never getting on the market long enough to be acquired, be it by DL or CO or someone else.

Note: I'm not implying that any aforementioned government or bankruptcy was illegal in any way, but simply that the bankruptcy of a national carrier (even a de facto one) is such a political and emotional issue in Europe that it will not be handled the same way that the bankruptcy of Luigi's Ferrari/Fiat dealership would be.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10135 times:

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 6):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):


There is no way DL will order the A380

Which is what he stated..



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6446 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10097 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 13):
Remember, DL is no stranger to opping multiple engine types on fleets - 767s come to mind (just under 45% are PW while the rest are GE). Adding used 777s to the fleet helps in uplift capacity.

Not to mention, Delta operates two variants of GE engines on the 767s. Most of the non-ER 767-300s, except for the last four of them, use CF6-80A engines. Delta's last four non-ER 767-300s and most of the older 767-300ERs (except for the ex-Gulf Air aircraft) use PW4000 engines. Most of the newer 767-300ERs, 767-400ERs, and ex-Gulf Air 767-300ERs use CF6-80C2 engines.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10060 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 16):
Most of the newer 767-300ERs, 767-400ERs, and ex-Gulf Air 767-300ERs use CF6-80C2 engines.

Also keep in mind that the ex-Gulf Air B763ERs have different CF6-80C2s than the DL ordered B763/4ERs.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 10022 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Think CO.......CO's 772ERs are powered by the same GE engines as the AZ aircraft are equipped with; if anyone makes a fast move for the Altialia 772ERs, I think that it would be CO.

With regard to DL, while anything is possible, their 772ERs are RR powered and the 772LRs (and potential 773ERs) will be GE powered....the GE powered 772ER airplanes from Altialia would add a third variant to the 777 fleet.

While CO would certainly like to quickly have add'l longhaul capacity, it makes far less sense for CO to go after used 777s when CO has 787s coming in less than 2 years.... besides, I don't think CO has much of a history of being used aircraft. Let me know if you can think of any recent examples.

I too haven't heard if DL is interested in any AZ assets but DL is clearly interested in cementing its position as the 2nd largest transoceanic carrier from Italy. It isn't out of the realm of possibility that DL could propose service enhancements in return for aircraft assets.


User currently offlineChiGB1973 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1613 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9983 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
don't think CO has much of a history of being used aircraft. Let me know if you can think of any recent examples.

753s from TZ.

M


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9979 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 2):
I wouldn't be suprised if Delta were to order some 777-300ERs.

..I highly doubt we'll see the B773ER in DL colours.....it wouldn't have enough routes to provide the flexibility...the -200ER and -200LR are the largest variants of the 777's DL needs....

Both AA and DL are two of the largest carriers in the world and have done it w/out the need of anything larger than a -200ER..and in DL's case, they have only a handful of those...where as AA has 40+ B777's as well as a bunch of A300's.......DL could grow by adding -200ER's/-200LR's....

Regards...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineNA From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 9965 times:

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 5):
They will be gone before you can say Jack Flash.

Many of UAs 777s spend years in the desert as did two of ex-BA-777s (one of which is scrapped right now). And there are some ex-Varig 777s which were parked for a year before Brunei took them.


User currently offlineFyano773 From Mexico, joined Mar 2004, 784 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9902 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Alitalia's 777-200ERs are GE-powered



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Think CO.......CO's 772ERs are powered by the same GE engines as the AZ aircraft are equipped with; if anyone makes a fast move for the Altialia 772ERs, I think that it would be CO.



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 4):
Wouldn't the AZ aircraft be more attractive to Continental, or even Air France, given that they are GE powered. Maybe even KL might be interested. Whoever takes them, I doubt if they'll be homeless for long.

AeroMexico's 777 are also GE powered and knows how to move fast; remember RG's GE 777? Both of them are now with AM to fly the MEX-GRU route.

PS - One future route in the map for AM is MEX-MXP/FCO  Wink

Fyano


User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6446 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9886 times:

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 9):
Who owns the T7's? Also, DL might acquire the 763ER if the deal is good. The only way I can DL getting these if they can do easy MX on them.

Also, I don't see Delta acquring any additional 767s. Delta has shown strong interest in the 787, and would prefer to get their hands on some brand new 787s rather than on used 767s. However, they do feature the same exit layout as most of Delta's 767-300s (except for the ex-Gulf Air aircraft) feature and use CF6-80C2 engines.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9714 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18):
While CO would certainly like to quickly have add'l longhaul capacity, it makes far less sense for CO to go after used 777s when CO has 787s coming in less than 2 years.... besides, I don't think CO has much of a history of being used aircraft. Let me know if you can think of any recent examples.

Whether or not CO would acquire the 772ERs is a long term business decision.....if the AZ GE powered 772ERs were to become available on reasonable lease terms, CO would certainly take a long hard look at the deal. As for CO picking up used aircraft.......how about the 8 ex-ATA 757-300s now with CO that were picked up on very good terms?


25 WorldTraveler : good point on the 753s. I wouldn't rule CO in or out on picking up used 777s but there would have to be some routes that REALLY need to be started rig
26 Dutchjet : Additional routes to India, China, Asia of course all come to mind........and IAH-EZE could use a 772ER right now.
27 CO787EWR : Even with the 787 coming a group of lets say six 777's would help a lot, most here believe that CO is going to get the nod for EWR-PVG in '09 thats le
28 WorldTraveler : of course there are routes that could use it... but that doesn't mean it makes sense to pick up used airplanes to satisfy a couple year requirement. I
29 MCOflyer : I can see CO and AM battling over the T7's. Unless DL is in Negotiations, good luck. Hunter
30 WorldTraveler : oh please.... AM or CO or DL will not get into a bidding war over a bunch of 777s. There are financial analyses that have to be done by any company be
31 CO787EWR : The 787's are most likely replacing the 762's first so the 772's still have some life left in them and CO just got two new 772's last year(IIRC). So
32 WorldTraveler : I doubt very seriously that CO will use its first several 787s for 767 replacement. Since DL is gunning to start every possible route it can before C
33 Da man : I don't think that would be a problem since their 10 762s are some of if not the newest pax 762s in existence.
34 WorldTraveler : yes but they aren't terribly popular as passenger a/c because the costs are almost the same as the larger 763. They are more likely to end up w/ cargo
35 Da man : True, but since they're newer reason leads me to believe that the lower number of hours and cycles compared to the other (older) 762s around would ma
36 Post contains images WesternA318 : Let's see...the ex-ATA 757-300's, quite a few DC-10-30's were picked up from 1991 until the introduction and assimilation of the T7 and new batch 762
37 WorldTraveler : but you still have to compare them to other 762s, not 763s. The higher aircraft related CASM of a 762 does not necessarily offset the higher maintenan
38 Jr : What DL should do is arrange a 1 for 1 swap of their current RR powered birds with BA for GE90 powered birds, and not worry about RRs on the 777s. I g
39 CALPSAFltSkeds : The CO 787's may or may not replace 762 aircraft. It all depends on the economy, markets and fuel prices. If fuel is relatively low and the economy is
40 CO787EWR : I thought the 762's were sure thing to be leaving CO's fleet thanks for your insight on that. Also thanks for clearing up what I was trying to say in
41 WesternA318 : Doesn't the 764 have the legs to do EWR-GUM?
42 Dutchjet : The 777 has been used on the IAH-EZE route one or two days per week this past winter (usually on a Thrusday out of IAH) and all of those seats were f
43 DAL767400ER : Not even close. EWR-GUM is no less than 6908nm long. The 764's range is only 5625nm, and even the 762's range at 6590nm would not be enough, hence th
44 1337Delta764 : I know that everyone has mentioned CO as a likely customer for AZ's 777s if AZ liquidates, but think about it: who needs 777s more - DL or CO? CO alre
45 St530 : Bingo. It is almost impossible to get a J seat on IAH-EZE on short notice, it is always full. I took the 772 to EZE twice in March and it was complet
46 1337Delta764 : Instead of just speculating on the fate of Alitalia's 777s, why not speculate on the other aircraft if AZ liquidates? Airbus A319 - These aircraft cou
47 CALPSAFltSkeds : Keep in mind that according to AirFleets, DL has far more international capabile aircraft than CO. DL: 58 763ER and 21 764ER vs. CO: 10 762ER and 16 7
48 1337Delta764 : Currently, the only 757s that are ETOPS-rated in Delta's fleet are the ex-ATA 757s. These aircraft are used on Latin American flights. Delta is also
49 STT757 : 8 757-300s from ATA, and a whole bunch of DC-10s during the late 1990s As mentioned IAH-EZE could use a 777-200ER, CO also will need the additional 7
50 WorldTraveler : I don't doubt that they can be sold to cargo carriers since they will max out the weight for both levels of the a/c faster than they will run out of
51 Ghost77 : Add AeroMexico to the list of interested airline. AZ B777s are all in flying conditions in good shape, brand new, 4 owned by GECAS... AM might be on t
52 Dutchjet : Well, we will have to agree to disagree on this point......if CO can fill up a 772ER including those all important 48-50 J class seats and haul some
53 STT757 : CO fills up the front cabin, which is why they have and will put 777s on those routes.
54 1337Delta764 : Even if Delta were to acquire Alitalia's 777s, Delta would probably prefer to use them on longer routes than on European transatlantic routes. While
55 Dutchjet : If DL were to pick up these airplanes, I agree they would be used on longer range routes and not transatlantic services, DL has a huge fleet of 767 a
56 WDBRR : I don't see Alitalia liquidating....they have been on the brink for years and brought back....I think the threat of liquidation is a scare tactic to g
57 N659AA : Why is all the 777 speculation being limited to US-Based carriers? I would start right in AZ's backyard with the likes of AP.
58 CALPSAFltSkeds : Amazing to see DL people stating that they know how to use aircraft to their best ability after years of miss-allocating widebodies and 752s. Would w
59 1337Delta764 : The non-ER 767-300s entered service a while before the 767-300ERs did. With the retirement of the 767-200 and with the 767-400ERs going to internatio
60 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : ...shouldn't be, they're already ordering/itemizing parts that only the 77W requires. ...is CO aware of this? Not that great of an idea... as DL woul
61 St530 : The J traffic from IAH-EZE (which is the reason to upgrade to a 772) doesn't have a "season", it's driven mainly by oil traffic (most of the majors h
62 CO787EWR : Well DL and CO are going to have different plans because of their different fleet sizes. DL has alot of widebodies 80(not including 777's(8) ), all of
63 Jacobin777 : ..I'm curious as to what routes will support the B77W for DL....
64 1337Delta764 : I think that ATL-NRT might be able to support a 777-300ER during the peak season. The route has always been a strong performer for Delta.
65 WorldTraveler : I didn't say CO wouldn't or doesn't use 777s to Europe; they just wouldn't add all of those cities. No dispute there. But hauling that extra weight c
66 Jacobin777 : ..load factor for 2006 ran from the low 90%'s to the low/mid 70'%s..not bad really, but I'm not so sure if it would be worth adding the B77W to that
67 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : well, since the current fleet flys only to Asia, that'd be a good place the start I did cher... not that tense would matter though: as they've sent t
68 DTWAGENT : As I see it. DL will be getting these birds one way or another. If they are going to be flying in LHR soon. They are going to need the T7's to compete
69 CALPSAFltSkeds : So does this thread now says DL will have four relatively small subfleets of 777 aircraft? 772ER with PW 772ER with GE 90,000 thrust? (ExAZ) 772LR wit
70 Dutchjet : I, and many others, disagree. As discussed throughout the thread, CO could be very interested, not to mention AM and other airlines worldwide......an
71 Alitalia744 : DL's 777-232ER a/c are and will remain RR powered.
72 Alitalia744 : Alitalia will not liquidate. There will be a plan to plan development of the plan of the business plan.
73 Dutchjet : NOT PW powered....typo, sorry, and I cannot edit for some reason.
74 WorldTraveler : I'm not trying to be a pest (or worse). CO's online schedule shows a 762 for today and every day over the next week. That is the present to me. I do
75 Alitalia744 : NO doubt Dutch. How you been? They had 5 on order but the order was converted to 777s. Thus my username was gone before it even happened. If only we
76 Post contains images WorldTraveler : no need... we know your stripes.
77 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..IIRC, don't they fly their current B772ER or two over the Atlantic....? DXB and TLV ring a bell....
78 WorldTraveler : DXB and TLV are in Asia. BOM is flown over the Atlantic and is also in Asia.
79 CALPSAFltSkeds : If you go back to the original response to World Travelers above comment, CO has run, are running and are scheduled to run 764 aircraft to S. America
80 Panamair : The most probable statement in this whole thread...Italy will continue to have a long-haul international airline whether it's called Alitalia or not,
81 ConcordeBoy : ...you seem to be unaware that 1) I said "only to Asia" and not "only transpacifically", and 2) upon which continent DXB and TLV are located. Dunno w
82 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..I see, a little play on words there (I'll have to be a bit more cognizant of your comments)...fair enough...Asia it is....
83 Post contains images DAL767400ER : You sound almost like you work for the Italian Government and are in charge of rescuing AZ, really . JFK-BOM would probably be a good start, as would
84 ConcordeBoy : ATL-NRT would be another good one.
85 Post contains images WorldTraveler : that's why I LOVE a.net. we spend days debating a point when we're all on the same page to begin with. I know CO sends 764s to BRAZIL regularly. My co
86 ChiGB1973 : DL is ordering parts for a plane they have not ordered and could not get for a few years? Is the parts back order so bad at Boeing you must order rep
87 CALPSAFltSkeds : The 772ER was used on EZE during the northern off-season when airplane time was available. My guess is that it also provided a day and a half of main
88 STT757 : It's the off seaon for South America right now, CO would deploy 777s to Europe for the Summer high Summer season and then redeploy them to South Amer
89 A342 : LOL, I can think of at least a dozen!
90 ThirteenRight : MAXjet would love them I'm sure!
91 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : ...then it might've behooved you to actually say that, instead of "S.America" correct.
92 Post contains images JRDC930 : Maybe MX? , Yeah , I wish, I know MX has been looking for longhaul stuff, but some how i think they are just too deeply committed to Airbus to ever c
93 WesternA318 : LOL, doesnt A.net allow that?
94 Post contains images DAL767400ER : Nope. If you want to have a new username, you have to SD, and then rejoin under the new username, of course only after having paid your way to the ne
95 Phollingsworth : These are the same engine only the rating plug and, consequently, life differ between the two. (I am not saying that DL will be getting B77Ws). Also
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