Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Pan AM's Aircraft  
User currently offlineAirEMS From United States of America, joined May 2004, 684 posts, RR: 3
Posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6480 times:

Just a curious question... When Pan AM ceased ops who got their aircraft? Was it one airline in particular or did they scatter to the wind and the bone yard?


Sorry if this has been posted before did a search and couldn't find anything


-Carl


If Your Dying Were Flying
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6454 times:

I believe Evergreen and Polar Air Cargo both got most of Pan Am's 747's, as they were among the oldest birds in the sky:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrew Hunt - AirTeamImages
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrew Hunt - AirTeamImages



Side note: if you search for Polar Air Cargo 747-100's, the first four slides are 747-121, 747-122, 747-123, and 747-124!! How funny is that? Ex PA, UA, AA, and BN!!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Adam Samu - AIRportal Hungary
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mika B Virolainen - FAP



However, in a book I have called "Desert Airliners" by Graham Robson, published in 1995, there are many pictures of some of the early 747's of Pan Am that were cut up and disposed of. Very sad to see.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineWDBRR From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 613 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6432 times:

Kiwi got a number of 727's...one of them I remembered was registered N360PA.

User currently offlineDalb777 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6415 times:

DL got some of their A310's. Maybe they got all of them, not sure???


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © David Oates
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gerard Helmer




Geaux Tigers! Geaux Hornets! Geaux Saints! WHO DAT!!!
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5875 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6372 times:

I know JALCargo got two 747F's... That would be JA8160 and JA8165. 8165 has left our fleet this year, but 8160 soldiers on.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1):
Ex PA, UA, AA, and BN

You mean PA, UA, AA, and CO. The -24 designation is for Continental.


User currently offlineOceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6331 times:

Quoting Dalb777 (Reply 3):
DL got some of their A310's. Maybe they got all of them, not sure???

All the A310s went to DL - 7x A310-200 & 14 A310-300.

The A300B4-203 went to Sempati, Carnival, Air Jamaica, Philipppines, Apollo, Dominicana, althought some spent some months over even years parked and not used after Pan Am bankruptcy before flying for one of the above airlines.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1):
Ex PA, UA, AA, and BN



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
You mean PA, UA, AA, and CO. The -24 designation is for Continental.

BN designation was 27.



Cheers.

[Edited 2007-07-23 05:23:34]

User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4556 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6278 times:

By 1992-1994, Aero Costa Rica (no longer in service) utilized two B727-200 ex-Pan Am, registered as N353PA and N354PA. Some photos are shown in the database.


"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineBNinMSY From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6201 times:

Isn't it interesting that the scheme, albeit of course a temporary one ... in this pic... are quiet similiar to the font and simplicity of today's livery for DL?

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1004803/M/


User currently offlineMilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2006 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6156 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1):



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1):
Side note: if you search for Polar Air Cargo 747-100's, the first four slides are 747-121, 747-122, 747-123, and 747-124!! How funny is that? Ex PA, UA, AA, and BN!!

747-124 was built and delivered to CO, not BN. The Orange Pumpkin was a 747-127. Another side note, PA acquired most of AA's 747-123's in trade for NA's DC-10's, and PA acquired five UA 747-122's.


User currently offlineCubastar From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 410 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5898 times:

Delta also acquired a good many 727's in addition to the aforementioned A310's.

User currently offlineOceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5851 times:

Quoting Cubastar (Reply 9):
Delta also acquired a good many 727's

Not that many, about four. But there are ten other B727s that were leased by PA from CO which the former returned during August 1991. Later that same month, DL leased them directly from Continental. And I think but am not sure that those former PA aircraft were used by DL in Europe from FRA.


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6971 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5846 times:

It's interesting that Pan Am acquired everyone else's 747's after they discovered they couldn't make money with them. Of course Pan Am needed the range, which I guess at that time wasn't available in anything else. But perhaps they would have lasted longer had they opted for smaller planes and fuel stops?


The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineOceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5787 times:

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 11):
It's interesting that Pan Am acquired everyone else's 747's after they discovered they couldn't make money with them. Of course Pan Am needed the range, which I guess at that time wasn't available in anything else. But perhaps they would have lasted longer had they opted for smaller planes and fuel stops?

Well, some of their second hand B747s were acquired during the second half of the '70s, but most arrived during the '80s, including a bunch of former SQ B742s.

That means that at the time other aircraft were available on the market like the B742, DC-10-30, L-1011 and B762. I know that during the '80s and before Lockerbie, Pan Am had lost something like $1 billion. During that decade they have had to digest the very expensive National merger, the arrival of the TriStar while they had DC-10s too, deregulation and other factors. I guess they couldn't afford for a while to buy new aircraft. But then came the Airbus deal for some of its white tails.


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5611 times:

Quote:
You mean PA, UA, AA, and CO. The -24 designation is for Continental.



Quote:
BN designation was 27.



Quote:
747-124 was built and delivered to CO, not BN. The Orange Pumpkin was a 747-127.

 fight 

It was late and I confused -24 and -27...forgiveness, please!!  rotfl 

Quote:
DL got some of their A310's. Maybe they got all of them, not sure???

If I remember right, DL got rid of the 310's pretty quickly...didn't Aerolineas Argentinas get a few?

Quote:
It's interesting that Pan Am acquired everyone else's 747's after they discovered they couldn't make money with them. Of course Pan Am needed the range, which I guess at that time wasn't available in anything else. But perhaps they would have lasted longer had they opted for smaller planes and fuel stops?

I think the problem that both Pan Am and TWA both had was that in the 1980's the 747-100 was simply too much plane for their networks. Fuel costs and an entrenched mentality of "no new planes" helped to hasten the end for both airlines (among other reasons).

I wish Pan Am had been able to do the JetBlue thing - build a successful domestic hub at JFK not dependent entirely on international connections. I'd also like to think that they were flying 757's internationally on the "thin" routes, as CO has discovered is so profitable. Sigh...I miss the blue globe!!  cry 



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineCubastar From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 410 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5578 times:

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 10):
Not that many, about four. But there are ten other B727s that were leased by PA from CO which the former returned during August 1991. Later that same month, DL leased them directly from Continental. And I think but am not sure that those former PA aircraft were used by DL in Europe from FRA.

I never said bought. "Acquired" can also mean take possession. Anyway, they were used on the mainline system here in the states for awhile prior to moving them to the FRA "Hub". Many remained in the PanAm colors for quite some time.....understandable when considering Delta's usual "speedy" painting pace.  laughing 


User currently offlineOceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5527 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 13):
It was late and I confused -24 and -27...forgiveness, please!!

Sure, and

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 13):
If I remember right, DL got rid of the 310's pretty quickly...

Of those they got when they took over PA trans-Atlantic operations in November 1991, most were gone during 1994, with the last few leaving the fleet by the end of April 1995. The nine that DL received new from Airbus during 1993 had all left the fleet by the end of 1995.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 13):
didn't Aerolineas Argentinas get a few?

The A310-200s went to FX, while AR got three A313s, the others went to Air Jamaica, Aeroflot, Air Club International, Diamond Sakha, Tarom.

Quoting Cubastar (Reply 14):
I never said bought. "Acquired" can also mean take possession.

I know that, and what I meant was to say that there has been a time gap of a few weeks between the moment Pan Am returned the aircraft to CO and the moment DL leased them. Plus the four that were former National jets.

[Edited 2007-07-23 19:54:01]

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27176 posts, RR: 60
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5405 times:

Quoting Dalb777 (Reply 3):
DL got some of their A310's. Maybe they got all of them, not sure???

Yes I flew on one from FRA to ATH over 12 years ago and in the toilet there was still a Pan Am logo on the wall.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25700 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5352 times:

Not quite on topic since it happened 5 years before PA shut down, but UA acquired PA's 11 747SPs and 6 of their 12 L1011-500s as part of their purchase of PA's Pacific routes in 1986. UA sold most if not all of the L1011s to DL in 1988/89. DL had previously bought a couple of other L15s from PA, so they finally wound with at least 8 of the original 12 PA L11011-500s. UA kept the ex-PA 747SPs until about 1995.

User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5308 times:

One of the 11 ex-Pan Am 747SPs was an ex-Braniff. Being nick-picky here, Pan Am operated 65 different 747s over the years, 45 of them being Pan Am's own code of -21... 33 -121s, 2 -221s and 10 SP21s. Other widebodies included 12 A300s, 21 A310s, 11 DC-10-10s, 5 DC-10-30s & 12 L-1011-500s. Pan Am was one of a few carriers operating all the first-generation widebodies. The airline is missed by yours truly. Regards.


"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6971 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5279 times:

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 18):
Pan Am was one of a few carriers operating all the first-generation widebodies.

How much a part did this play in their demise? Actually my take on the demise of PA was that there was a huge backlash against Juan Trippe's heavy-handed political tactics that left PA with few friends once he had departed which prevented them from getting any domestic routes, which in turn led to the disastrous National merger. It was not helped by a series of less than stellar successors to Trippe, and Lockerbie was the final blow, but it only accelerated what by then was probably inevitable. But very mixed fleet combined with planes flying half empty (or less) certainly didn't help things at all.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
User currently offlineOceansWorld From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5224 times:

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 18):
One of the 11 ex-Pan Am 747SPs was an ex-Braniff. Being nick-picky here, Pan Am operated 65 different 747s over the years, 45 of them being Pan Am's own code of -21... 33 -121s, 2 -221s and 10 SP21s.

Just to be picky, the 2 -221 were cargo planes. Other than all the 747s you've already mentioned, the 20 other jumbos were 5 -122 (SCD), (2) -123 (SCD), 1 -123SF, 2 -132 (SCD), 5 -212B, 4 -212B (SCD) and -273C (1). Amongst the -121, three were converted to Special Freighter, and six others equipped with a Side Cargo Door for CRAF operations.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 19):
Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 18):Pan Am was one of a few carriers operating all the first-generation widebodies.
How much a part did this play in their demise?

Pan Am has operated the three first-generation widebodies during the first half of the '80s (1980-1985), which was quite a harsh time for the airline following the deregulation and thus the expansion on international routes of the other "major" US airlines, plus the costly National acquisition.

[Edited 2007-07-23 22:07:11]

User currently offlineMD80Nut From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 961 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5167 times:

One of my father's closest friends worked for PanAm in administration for decades and retired in the mid 80s. A few years ago I asked him his views on what had happened to PanAm. He said many things contributed to PanAm's demise, but he thought the main reason was the airline's inability to compete after Deregulation. He told me the company was used to being "The Chosen Instrument" and never adjusted to the post-Regulation reality. Once PanAm was no longer the airline that got the juiciest and profitable international routes, and other airlines started to compete with them on those routes, especially from other cities allowing passengers to by-pass JFK, the decline started.

He told me too many people in the airline still arrogantly assumed that since "we are PanAm", that passengers would continue to fly PanAm regardless of competition. He believes this arrogance contributed to the botched National merger. Several times during our conversation, he insisted arrogance had been the key factor in everything that went wrong.

Cheers, Ralph



Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 27
Reply 22, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5072 times:

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 21):
Once PanAm was no longer the airline that got the juiciest and profitable international routes, and other airlines started to compete with them on those routes, especially from other cities allowing passengers to by-pass JFK, the decline started.

Good info, MD80Nut.

To add, in their final few years, PA realized that airlines such as UA had what PA needed: a strong national route network to better feed their multiple international routes (which they relied too heavily upon post-deregulation). It was too late. that, and other questionable tactics...I still wonder if PA could have better utilized the 747s that showed up so many times on the JFK-DEN route in the early 1990s...never understood that one...and I never remember the loads being such that it was a feasible use of the giant a/c.



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2827 posts, RR: 42
Reply 23, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4999 times:

I highly recommend the book Skygods if people are interested in Pan Am.

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 21):
One of my father's closest friends worked for PanAm in administration for decades and retired in the mid 80s. A few years ago I asked him his views on what had happened to PanAm. He said many things contributed to PanAm's demise, but he thought the main reason was the airline's inability to compete after Deregulation.

Pan Am outside of the 30s never actually received chosen instrument status. The US prefered to use multiple carriers to encourage competition and lower costs. Pan Am's success was mostly centered around how tailored the 707 was for it's operations, and the fact that they had the inside track on sales and orders with Boeing.

The biggest reason is because while Trippe and Pan Am in general supported the Democratic party (where most of the Presidents came from during Pan Am's existence), they also pissed of JFK's father, who then made it a point to screw Pan Am every chance he got. The disastrous leadership that Pan Am encountered after Trippe left was due to the board trying to find people with enough political influence to counteract that problem.

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 21):
Once PanAm was no longer the airline that got the juiciest and profitable international routes, and other airlines started to compete with them on those routes, especially from other cities allowing passengers to by-pass JFK, the decline started.

The decline started well before then. Pan Am had not turned a profit in almost 8 years before deregulation occurred, with the exception of a year that they and TWA pulled off a route swap (which would not fly today). How bad was it? Before deregulation even started the NYT times had a death watch on, and trumpeted that "Pan Am was saved" when the Shah of Iran offered to buy it.

What really caused the decline? As you said it was primarily arrogance. Pan Am beat everyone else to the 707 and made a fortune. They then believed that their predictions where infalable and no one else knew how to really fly. That led to a spate of horrible air crashes with pilots that felt that they were Gods in the cockpit. The 747 was also a disaster. They were never really able to both fill a plane, and maintain a suitable margin on the plane. They also were the biggest earlier customer on the 747 which meant that they had huge issues with engine reliability etc. They never re-examined their fleet choices until it was far to late, and they didn't have the capital to right size their fleet.


User currently offlineSEPilot From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 6971 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (7 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4972 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 23):
I highly recommend the book Skygods if people are interested in Pan Am.

Thanks for your input; I also highly recommend Skygods. Your info on JFK's father is new to me; I had never heard that before. From what I have learned about Juan Trippe, he seemed to prefer political wheeling and dealing to building a sound business, and tried very hard to achieve his dreams that way. The movie "The Aviator", while about Howard Hughes, certainly showed this side of Trippe's character. From what I have read and heard elsewhere I am inclined to believe that the portrayal of Trippe was basically accurate. I did not realize that the political backlash against Trippe started even before he left.



The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
25 MYT321 : "That lead to a spate of horrible air crashes with pilots that felt they were Gods in the cockpit" Explain/expand please ?
26 Md94 : I have wanted to ask this question before, but did not want to start a thread for it, but I think it fits this topic. While in MIA last October I saw
27 GeorgeJetson : Certainly an interesting coincidence. However, the 747-124 would have been an ex-Continental, not ex-Braniff, although Braniff did lease a couple of
28 Post contains links Viscount724 : I always felt very safe on PA, but they did have a spotty accident record during certain periods. They had an especially bad 9 months between July 19
29 N202PA : The former Guilford Transportation, a northeastern transportation company owned by an heir of the Mellon family, bought the Pan Am name and logo when
30 GeorgeJetson : I have seen Pan Am 727 aircraft in Miami occasionally in recent years. Although someone bought the "Pan Am" name, this is not the same airline anymor
31 Positiverate : What airplanes did they use when they first acquired the Shuttle? Were they all DL 727's or were they the PA 727's? In fact, when the rudders were ha
32 AirFrnt : I would not go that far. They portrayed Juan Trippe as a cartoon villain in that movie, which I must disagree with. Juan Trippe was (hands down) the
33 Post contains links PapaNovember : Ironically enough, the website www.airliner.net is a website about the Pan Am flying boats... acrually, it's just a few photos.
34 747fan : Over the years UPS has operated a number of ex-Pan Am 747-100's (-121's). There are currently 2 ex-Pan Am birds still in service with UPS, both were m
35 Md94 : Thank you for the info on the current 727s.
36 WDBRR : Not to get off the subject...towards the end of Pan Am when they competed head-on with AA in Miami, I remember reading that AA stated something like "
37 TrijetsRMissed : While Pan Am had an interesting mix of aircraft, bad decisions were made in the desperate attempt to stay aloft. Building up a large fleet of old fuel
38 Post contains images Tu154 : KW...Carnival airlines, got a few A300's from PA, and at least one re-engined B727. I know a few B727's went to KIWI and a 747 or two to Aeropostal an
39 Post contains images SEPilot : What the movie portrayed was a tycoon with at least one senator at his beck and call who tried to push through a bill essentially giving PA a monopol
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
New Pan Am Aircraft Questions posted Sun Mar 30 2003 17:59:49 by Pacificflyer
Pan Am What Aircraft In 1955 posted Tue Feb 6 2007 16:37:41 by AlaskaMD80
Pan Am Transatlantic Aircraft In '30s-'40s? posted Mon Aug 1 2005 17:40:57 by Ssides
What Aircraft Were Pan Am And Eastern To Get? posted Thu Aug 21 2003 04:16:18 by Tommy767
The New Pan Am Orders Aircraft posted Fri Aug 27 1999 22:12:28 by Panamfanatic
25th Anniversary Of Pan Am 759 posted Mon Jul 9 2007 23:52:37 by MSYtristar
Where Did Pan Am Pilots Go? posted Wed Jun 20 2007 18:19:38 by ARGIEPILOT
Pan Am Worlpass FF Program posted Mon Jun 11 2007 20:07:00 by Eastern023
Pan Am Vietnam R&R Flights Question posted Sun May 27 2007 15:36:34 by AirAmericaC46
Introducing: Pan Am Railways posted Thu May 24 2007 04:30:57 by Alberchico