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United MSY-SFO Nonstop Service  
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6559 posts, RR: 51
Posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4683 times:

I take it this route is dead in the water, and I still can't see why. Traffic at MSY is rebounding at a pretty good clip.

MSY-SFO was always a strong route for Trans-Pacific connections, as well as O&D traffic. Prior to Katrina it was running with a daily A320.

I cannot believe that demand has decreased to the point where one nonstop between the two cities is not possible. Does anyone have recent O&D figures between the Bay area and New Orleans? Anyone at UA know of the possibility of this route returning at some pointin the near future?

Someone has to know something!

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 33
Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4632 times:

Steve, the local UA folks can't understand it either.....they've been expecting resumption of MSY-SFO for some time now. I'm wondering if UA's home office thinking is similar to that of WN's prior to their latest upgrades: the demand is obviously there, and they just have to figure out where to pull service from in order to provide that service. I guarantee we're pushing to get it back.

Tom at MSY



"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4605 times:

While I realise you are a big MSY defender, I'm sure todays market is vastly different and smaller then pre-Katrina levels.

As far as UA, I'd say you are lucky the carrier still manages to operate MSY-LAX. I'm not too sure how well this even does for UA, as they have flipped back and forth from mainline to TED, along with adjusting capacity A319 vs A320 and also playing with the frequency.

At the end of the day, I'd say MSY has no higher or lower priority over many cities that in theory could be linked to SFO by UA. If anything its probably safer for an airline to sit out things yet another year to see how economics and traffic flow play out in the NO region.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6559 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4582 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
As far as UA, I'd say you are lucky the carrier still manages to operate MSY-LAX

I wouldn't say "lucky". LAX-MSY has always been a successful route.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
I'm not too sure how well this even does for UA,

Good enough to fly nonstop.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
At the end of the day, I'd say MSY has no higher or lower priority over many cities that in theory could be linked to SFO by UA

I'd put it in the higher echelon of the U.S cities which do not see SFO nonstop service. Top 5 at least.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17439 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4512 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 3):
I'd put it in the higher echelon of the U.S cities which do not see SFO nonstop service. Top 5 at least.

I personally think UA at SFO needs more frequency rather than new destinations. It's not a very big market...I'm sure UA sees the number of pax it connects over DEN or LAX and the fare they're paying and has a good reason for not adding it.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineTom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 33
Reply 5, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4466 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
todays market is vastly different and smaller then pre-Katrina

'vastly different' yes.....in terms of a higher ratio of higher yield business travelers. 'vastly smaller' no.....somewhat smaller yes, gaining momentum every day with more and more major conventions returning, and the leisure market returning in droves. As we're being proved correct in predicting WN's return on a greater scale, methinks we'll be proven right again in this case  wink 

Tom at MSY



"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6559 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4436 times:

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 5):
methinks we'll be proven right again in this case

I would put $$$ on it.

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 5):
'vastly smaller' no.....somewhat smaller yes, gaining momentum every day with more and more major conventions returning, and the leisure market returning in droves

Truer words have never been spoken. Most of the restaurants in the CBD/Quarter/Warehouse District are seeing strong demand now from tourists on a daily basis....apparently it's getting better every week. And hotel occupancy is stong for a traditionally slow summer season. This Fall is supposed to be HUGE for the city in terms of conventions and the return of more cruise ships.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7562 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4407 times:

I think MSY-SFO is just a matter of time for UA. I personally dont know why it isnt already in place. But UA has made some moves that I dont quite understand. Axing SFO-MSY was one removing all mainline from ORD-MIA was another.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22911 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 4234 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
I'm sure UA sees the number of pax it connects over DEN or LAX and the fare they're paying and has a good reason for not adding it.

However, UA doesn't see the folks who are flying NW (or AA) to Asia because they don't want to double connect...



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 4210 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
I'm not too sure how well this even does for UA,


...apparently not, with statements such as:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
I'd say you are lucky the carrier still manages to operate MSY-LAX.

What continues to confound UA personele is the sporadic removal/addition of mainline on a route well known for its paid-First fares.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17439 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4160 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
However, UA doesn't see the folks who are flying NW (or AA) to Asia because they don't want to double connect...

True, however UA offers much better connections to Asia from MSY than either NW or AA, between ORD, IAD, and LAX. NW doesn't even connect MSY to any of its Asia flights with one stop. AA only offers NRT with one stop. One stop options with UA include HKG/NRT/PEK/PVG/SYD/KWI.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4139 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
NW doesn't even connect MSY to any of its Asia flights with one stop.

Indeed; with their cutback to single dailies on both DTW and MSP, CO actually offers more 1stops to Asia than does NW from here.



Something I'm wondering about is why we still have yet to receive any of our nonstops to LatAm (particularly AM and TA) considering the explosion in Hispanic population (both immigrant and non) here........ and they ain't all poor.


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6559 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4110 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11):
Indeed; with their cutback to single dailies on both DTW and MSP, CO actually offers more 1stops to Asia than does NW from here

NW's schedules from MSY used to look something like this...not too bad for a spoke station...and the originator to MEM was, more times than not, flown with an A320.

0620 MEM
0705 MSP (connections to NRT)
0910 DTW (connections to NRT/KIX/etc.)
1135 MEM
1215 DTW (connections to Europe)
1300 MSP
1550 MEM
1625 DTW
1725 MSP

Now, it looks like this...all DC9-30's except for the last MEM flight which is usually a D95....

0620 MEM
0910 DTW *flight operates seasonally....February through June*
1130 MEM
1636 MEM
1650 DTW
1745 MSP

The only thing that can be said for NW in MSY is that they are still all mainline...other than that, they don't have much going on. NW's market share here, of course, continues to decline every month it seems.

UA has historically received the most Asia-bound pax from MSY thanks in large part to the SFO nonstop....that thing was filled with connect pax to Asia every single day. Trust me...I used to watch the check-in of that flight every morning while I was working three counters down.

MSY has a large Vietnamese community which UA could cater to thanks to its service to SGN...but it'd be far easier for the pax to just do MSY-SFO-HKG-SGN rather than MSY-DEN-SFO-HKG-SGN....these people have a long trip ahead of them already...one more stop would only be more inconvenient.


User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4102 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 12):
MSY has a large Vietnamese community which UA could cater to thanks to its service to SGN...but it'd be far easier for the pax to just do MSY-SFO-HKG-SGN rather than MSY-DEN-SFO-HKG-SGN....these people have a long trip ahead of them already...one more stop would only be more inconvenient.

why not MSY ORD HKG SGN?

or even MSY LAX HKG SGN?

-m



[Edited 2007-07-24 00:42:57]

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17439 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4095 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 12):
but it'd be far easier for the pax to just do MSY-SFO-HKG-SGN

Why not MSY-ORD-HKG-SGN? There's not much you're missing (on UA to Asia) that you can't get over ORD, other than KIX/ICN/NGO/TPE. Of course that's assuming any of those Asian connections are worth taking, and NW seems to think not Wink



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6559 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4091 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
Why not MSY-ORD-HKG-SGN?

Well I was thinking of it in terms of SFO-SGN same-plane service (is that still exists)....they'd only have to change planes once in SFO.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4071 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
While I realise you are a big MSY defender, I'm sure todays market is vastly different and smaller then pre-Katrina levels.

It is different. It sees more high yield passengers, both on the business and tourist end.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):

As far as UA, I'd say you are lucky the carrier still manages to operate MSY-LA

Lucky? It is their best performing route. If anything, the one route that is propped up is the ORD route, which has its O&D swallowed up by Amtrak and Southwest and is there because of the mega hub at ORD.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
I'm not too sure how well this even does for UA, as they have flipped back and forth from mainline to TED, along with adjusting capacity A319 vs A320 and also playing with the frequency.

According to the people at MSY for United, the route is by far the best performing one out of MSY, particularly for premium passengers. United's playing with capacity has been because of United's own short sighted reduction of domestic capacity, particularly domestic mainline capacity. With as strong, if not stronger, a film industry in New Orleans and Louisiana as a whole post-Katrina, the connection is vital and filled with money.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):

I personally think UA at SFO needs more frequency rather than new destinations.

MSY wouldn't exactly be a new destination

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
It's not a very big market..

San Francisco isn't? You are kidding, right?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):

Why not MSY-ORD-HKG-SGN?

You again have to double connect. MSY-SFO-HKG-SGN would be 2 plane service.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4035 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
You again have to double connect. MSY-SFO-HKG-SGN would be 2 plane service.

Walking from one HKG gate to another is an issue?

Anyhow all passengers must disembark in HKG, its not like you can sit on the aircraft waiting for the SGN departure.

However if this is such an issue, fly MSY-LAX as the SGN tag will be added to the LAX-HKG flight this fall.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4033 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 17):

However if this is such an issue, fly MSY-LAX as the SGN tag will be added to the LAX-HKG flight this fall

Hmmm, perhaps that is one of the reasons they are adding the tag to the reinstated LAX-HKG service.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6559 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 4017 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
Hmmm, perhaps that is one of the reasons they are adding the tag to the reinstated LAX-HKG service.

That could be. That flight will see a good amount of SGN-bound pax from MSY.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3931 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11):
CO actually offers more 1stops to Asia than does NW from here.

...as does DL

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 12):
these people have a long trip ahead of them already

And a lot of them have been doing MSY-ATL-ICN-SGN as well: essentially the same distance and an easy connection.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17439 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3862 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
San Francisco isn't? You are kidding, right?

Nope...the local market SFO/MSY market is not big. Until recently BWI/SEA was the largest unserved O&D and I believe SFO/MSY is about a third to half as big.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
According to the people at MSY for United, the route is by far the best performing one out of MSY, particularly for premium passengers.

Flight crews and airport personnel are famously bad at estimating a route's performance. It's a Ted route, with plenty of one stop competition on WN to pressure the fares.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
You again have to double connect.

I don't think I indicated otherwise, unless you're getting a HKG nonstop that we don't know about.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6559 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3835 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
...the local market SFO/MSY market is not big.

How much is the O&D now then? Prior to 8/05, there was more than enough passengers to justify nonstop flights. I doubt seriously that SFO-MSY dropped off as much as BOS did. I want to say the O&D was over 400 pax/day when OAK and SFO were combined.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
It's a Ted route, with plenty of one stop competition on WN to pressure the fares.

I wouldn't say "plenty" of one stop competition from WN...they might have one direct flight per day now. They were more of a factor when they flew nonstop as well. Now, MSY-LAX traffic is dominated by UA and DL, which has been surprisingly successful in the market. Nonstop LAX-MSY has been a very strong route for decades.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25137 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3805 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
Hmmm, perhaps that is one of the reasons they are adding the tag to the reinstated LAX-HKG service.



Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 19):
That could be. That flight will see a good amount of SGN-bound pax from MSY.

Trust me the SGN tag onto the upcoming LAX-HKG has absolutely nothing to do with MSY. Instead its has everything to do with the fact SoCal (Orange County) is home to the largest Vietnamese community in the US.

There are much larger pockets of Vietnamese diaspora in the US than MSY that lack even proper single carrier connectivity to their home country via LAX or SFO for that matter.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineIflyatldl From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1936 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3786 times:

I've noticed everytime I take UA ATL-SFO-ATL(UA 351&790), it's always packed on a 319. So, there's obviously a lot of connecting coming out of that. They only do the one run a day, but it's jammed full. So MSY should be able hit that.


Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
25 MSYtristar : It may not directly have anything to do with it, but you better believe UA will enjoy the revenue by the frequent travelers flying from Southeast Lou
26 Post contains links MSYguy : I don't know. New Orleans' Vietnamese population is substantial: Southern Region According to the census figures, the Southern states possessed 335,6
27 LAXdude1023 : New Orleans, DFW and Houston all have large Vietnamese populations, but compared to Los Angeles and Orange County they are tiny.
28 MaverickM11 : BWI/SEA is about 300PDEW; SFO/MSY is about 65.
29 ConcordeBoy : ...what about QSF/MSY?
30 Post contains links Travelin man : Per faremeasure.com (daily passengers): MSY-SFO: 123 MSY-SJC: 88 MSY-OAK: 198 http://www.faremeasure.com/Airport-New_Orleans_Louisiana.html So, almos
31 MaverickM11 : By comparison, faremeasure shows BWI/SEA at about 445pdew. About 210 total? These numbers are very rough, so it's best to look at them (as well as fa
32 MSYtristar : Ok, but we're not talking about BWI. SFO-MSY has historically been a route which has seen nonstop service despite it's average O&D totals. Add the dr
33 MaverickM11 : All I'm saying is that a market that is over three times bigger just just recently got nonstop service. I'm not convinced you gain any meaningful uni
34 MSYtristar : I understand that. But SFO-MSY has been a nonstop route for years, even if others have higher local traffic. It was proven to be successful by its lo
35 AS739X : I think you just need to be patient with the airlines and adding new service to MSY. It still in recovery mode and things will get back on track. The
36 MSYtristar : Well, I think I generally am patient....I just think this is a route which should have been started a long time ago, as it does provide a key link to
37 ConcordeBoy : What "fact" do you purport that to be? Every tangible measure both before and after the storm shows their population to be well into the double digit
38 MaverickM11 : We have a whole Vietnamese 'hood down hurre...it's a couple blocks from downtown and suddenly all the signs are in Vietnamese. It allegedly is a big
39 Post contains links and images MSYtristar : "...the majority of the 25,000 Vietnamese in Louisiana reside in the New Orleans area." http://www.neworleansonline.com/newo...lticulturalhistory/viet
40 Post contains links AS739X : here you go... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ge_Vietnamese_American_populations In my opinion if there was a market there, why wouldn't the a
41 Post contains images MSYtristar : I guess that could be said of any number of markets across the U.S, and I guess the answers range from "we haven't got around to it yet" to "we don't
42 ConcordeBoy : Several reasons: fleet limitations, due to assignment on more/equally-lucrative markets fiscal limitations, (re)starting the station labor limitation
43 LAXdude1023 : But nonetheless the only huge pockets of Vietnameese in the US are: The Bay Area, Southern California, and Houston. The others arent really significa
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