Laxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22024 posts, RR: 51 Posted (5 years 10 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3420 times:
Good idea, keeping Spanair in Star Alliance.
Quote: Lufthansa Looking At Offer For Spanair
July 23, 2007
Lufthansa is talking to contacts in Spain and Portugal about an offer for Spanair, which is being sold by Scandinavian carrier SAS, a Spanish newspaper reported.
Citing sources close to Spanair, the Cinco Dias newspaper said Lufthansa wants to use its links to Spanish travel firm Marsans and Portuguese airline TAP to reinforce its expansion into southern Europe.
Adicool From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3267 times:
Expansion in southern Europe...hell let's forget about southern Europe and concentrate on South America!
It won't help LH expanding in the Latin American market by buying JK and I don't understand why they want to buy JK.
I rather see TP buying JK. By that, they could turn LIS into the new gate away and alternative to MAD to Latin America...let's say EZE-LIS-anywhere in Spain/Europe...sound pretty nice to me. LIS has a good advantage bc of it's geographical situation...
Hopefully an LH engagement would result in service improvements. Currently domestic flights, even the longer ones to the Canary Islands, are worse than on certain LCCs. Not even drinks are free, the stuff which they sell is over-priced, quality is low, numerous F/As appear unmotivated, check-in-machine (with all nice Star Alliance carriers' logos) at ACE out of order. Service on international flights is ok, but seat pitch in general is awful.
GatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3194 times:
Quoting Adicool (Reply 1): Expansion in southern Europe...hell let's forget about southern Europe and concentrate on South America!
It won't help LH expanding in the Latin American market by buying JK and I don't understand why they want to buy JK.
I rather see TP buying JK. By that, they could turn LIS into the new gate away and alternative to MAD to Latin America...let's say EZE-LIS-anywhere in Spain/Europe...sound pretty nice to me. LIS has a good advantage bc of it's geographical situation...
The "new Spanair", with a majority of the shareholders from Spain (remember that currently Spanair cannot operate to Latam due to the fact that SAS - a non Spanish firm - controls the airline), will be able to build a long haul network to compete with OW and IB.
Very interesting what you said about LIS, but notice that Spanair was willing to set its main airport at BCN if AENA (the airports authority) granted the airline with the new Terminal South, which will exceed the dimensions of the T4 in MAD. Since we expect the new terminal to be opened by 2008-2009, it can be a great oportunity to gather capacity in South Europe, which maybe LIS cannot offer in the short run. (Also take into account that BCN is a great place to catch passengers comming from any European country except from Portugal).
In addition, Marsans is the owner of Air Comet and also Aerolíneas Argentinas. A possible merger could be forecasted.
In my opinion, incorporating TAP is just an idea to avoid any trial of the Portuguese airline to beat Spanair/Air Comet in the South American market.
JD747 From Spain, joined Nov 2006, 46 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3014 times:
Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 4): Very interesting what you said about LIS, but notice that Spanair was willing to set its main airport at BCN if AENA (the airports authority) granted the airline with the new Terminal South, which will exceed the dimensions of the T4 in MAD.
What dimensions? Correct me if I'm wrong but the new BCN terminal is around 500.000 square meters and T4 in MAD (T4+T4S) is around 770.000 square meters. Not really sure thought
Beaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 26 Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2928 times:
I don't see any major strategic advantage in buying Spanair..
They don't go Interconti,they have a lousy service-record and don't bring any major gap-filling for LH.
Old fleet,badly motivated staff and not much flights into Germany neither - makes more sens for TAP than for LH.
Fairchild24 From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 2 days ago) and read 2818 times:
Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 6): They don't go Interconti,they have a lousy service-record and don't bring any major gap-filling for LH.
Old fleet,badly motivated staff and not much flights into Germany neither - makes more sens for TAP than for LH.
JK fly to Malabo in Central Africa,
Why should TAP want "Old fleet, Badly motivated staff" if LH doesn't.
JK dosn't fly much to Portugal either
cheers
Göran
Radial engine does not leak oil, they only mark there territory
Rogerbcn From Andorra, joined Sep 2006, 1129 posts, RR: 19 Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2788 times:
Hola JD747!
Quoting JD747 (Reply 5): What dimensions? Correct me if I'm wrong but the new BCN terminal is around 500.000 square meters and T4 in MAD (T4+T4S) is around 770.000 square meters. Not really sure thought
I think this post was refering to just T4 dimensions, excluding T4S.
Salut!
Roger
"At reise er at leve" H.C. Andersen (Travelling is Living)
Adicool From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2609 times:
How exactly are JK and AR connected to each other through the Grupo Marsans and A7?
Would buying into JK mean the new owner would also get some influence within AR?
I hope I didn't misunderstand something...
Anyways, I think it's not necessary for LH to buy JK bc Spain is already quit well served by LH. JK don't really contribute anything to *A expect for domestic service in Spain and - as it has been stated her before - the reputation of JK is not the best when it comes to service etc. They are really only in *A bc SK wanted it...same with BD.
As long as JK won't be able to start service to Latin America bc of their foreign main shareholders, the airlines won't be to attractive...but once his will change...hell, we will see some JK flight from BCN to LatinAmerica
(question: Why can JK fly to Africa but not Latin America? Could somebody explain the bilateral agreement Spain has with the Latin American countries?).
I can understand that LH are interested in widening their network, but I don't think they are willing to pay a high prize - it's seems to be rather lukewarm.
TP on the other hand are dying to get further into the European/Spanish market and by buying JK (and improving their service please) they could do so...
I have to say, TP have quietly improved their service and network and I heard some rumors about flying to other countries in Latin America besides Brazil...hope by buying JK they can push forward more into that specific market.
ZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5535 posts, RR: 40 Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2548 times:
Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 2): Hopefully an LH engagement would result in service improvements. Currently domestic flights, even the longer ones to the Canary Islands, are worse than on certain LCCs. Not even drinks are free, the stuff which they sell is over-priced, quality is low, numerous F/As appear unmotivated
That's the same as with IB. A few weeks ago I flew ZRH-MAD-TFS on IB. I think it was the worst experience on a so called legacy carrier. You even paid 1.5 € for water, the f/a were mostly unfriendly, the pilots did not address once to the passengers on three of the four flights and seat pitch is very poor. Why don't they call themselves an LCC and give low prizes. When I booked and paid quite much I expected else.
PlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6183 posts, RR: 79 Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2536 times:
Quoting ZRH (Reply 13): You even paid 1.5 € for water, the f/a were mostly unfriendly, the pilots did not address once to the passengers on three of the four flights and seat pitch is very poor.
EE-Kay From Ireland, joined Nov 2001, 152 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2448 times:
These days, the only difference between IB & JK on one side and AZ & OA on the other is that at least AZ & OA are still "full service" carriers losing money, whereas IB & JK are no-frills legacy carriers thereby still in the black.
Adicool From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2374 times:
ditto...
That's why I don't think LH want to buy JK bc of their rather bad reputation...
Do you have to pay for beverages and food on domestic flights with JK? I only took them once from BCN to Jerez and that was ages ago...they just wouldn't fit LH style and system...respectivly it would cost a lot do have them upgraded...rather buy IB I'd say.
Quoting Fairchild24 (Reply 12): JK flew to South America before with a B767, both to San Paulo and RIO
Now can anyone confirm this? If this is the case, then I'm really confused. When did they use to fly to GRU and GIG and when did SK become the majority shareholder of JK hence making it a non-Spanish company?
Laxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22024 posts, RR: 51 Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2369 times:
Spanair also operated MAD-IAD scheduled service with its 763s.
suggesting that Marsans would like to keep JK in Star if they buy it and would look at trying to get their other carriers AR and Air Comet into Star as well . From my understanding both AR and Air Comet would require quite a bit of work to get qualify in terms of FF programmes / codeshares / res systems etc so I would imagine it would a long term development if it went ahead - but it certainly would help the somewhat limited coverage Star currently has in South America
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
Adicool From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2156 times:
Three Spanish/Latin American carriers in one alliance? I think that would be somewhat of an overkill for *A, especially having A7 and JK in *A as two Spanish carries (though A7 do not have domestic service?!?) plus AR. Maybe if Grupo Marsans would merge all of those three enterprises into one (and letting LH do they whole administrative stuff^^) then it could go well...but as you said, it would take quite some time, money and stamina to get A7 and AR into *A - though it would indeed fill - to a certain point - the whole *A has in Latin American (I'm still hoping for AV to become a member any time soon - AR in AV in *A - match made in heaven!).
As in a recent article, LH is apparently not interested anymore in JK respectively in any other carrier - leaving it to TP, who knows. But if you ask me, that's BS - if LH will have the chance to buy BD - hell they'll do it in a splint second...
How are AR and A7 doing? I know that ARs fleet is a little old and A7 are not supposed to have the best service...
*A might have the most members and from time to time it's seems like they accepting everybody, but under the recent circumstances, no AR in *A anytime soon...the only Latin American carriers that would be accepted into *A are (IMHO) AV, TA, CM (though won't happen, they'll go with Skyteam bc of CO)...I don't know what *A think of JJ right now after the recent crash.
When playing around with some ideas for the Latin American market and *A, I always though of PU and MVD being a great place to start flight to southern Latin American (i.d. Chile, Bolivia, Paraguay, Argentina, southern Brazil)...but you know, of course complete BS and will never happen...I just have a thing for MVD and PU!
my two cents!
HanginOut From Austria, joined May 2005, 545 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2089 times:
If I were LH, I'd be far more interested acquiring BD and/or SK and all of their subsidiary airlines than JK. Although Iberia would be a nice acquisition, BA would make it far too difficult and expensive for this to become a reality (that and the bidding war that would break out with Air France-KLM, even if BA were willing to let Iberia go, make Iberia less and less of a target for LH).
I wouldn't be too surprised if LH is looking to airlines in other parts of the world to invest/acquire as well. If the US Government ever got rid of their protectionist rules I'm sure LH would try to acquire UA and might be interested in an Asian and/or South American airline as well.
Fairchild24 From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 99 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2064 times:
Quoting Adicool (Reply 16): Quoting Fairchild24 (Reply 12):
JK flew to South America before with a B767, both to San Paulo and RIO
Now can anyone confirm this? If this is the case, then I'm really confused. When did they use to fly to GRU and GIG and when did SK become the majority shareholder of JK hence making it a non-Spanish company?
Adicool, you can find some short history at www.spanair.com.
If my memory dosen´t fail me JK terminated the South American route -03 or -04.
If I recall right SK has been a major share holder almost from the beginning.
(in fact I think we started it)
Cheers
Göran
Radial engine does not leak oil, they only mark there territory
Adicool From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 261 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2018 times:
Okay...
I am really really confused here right now. I heard so many times that JK can not fly to any Latin American destinations bc they are not a Spanish company and hence do not have the permission do to so (I'm not fully involved with the bilateral agreement with Spain and Latin America). But, apparently I (and many other I might say) was proven wrong.
So, if JK can actually fly from their home base BCN to, let's say EZE, though the majority shareholder is foreign...well than, IMHO, LH should try to buy them ASAP...of course JK would need some desperate upgrade when it comes to service and aircrafts for such long haul routes and to connect to further European cities like FRA, HAM, VIE, BRU...but by buying JK, LH gets a Spanish domestic network in order to feed their flights and international connection through *A...
I'm a little overwhelmed by all of that...
Kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 15 Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1958 times:
Quoting Adicool (Reply 22): I am really really confused here right now. I heard so many times that JK can not fly to any Latin American destinations bc they are not a Spanish company and hence do not have the permission do to so (I'm not fully involved with the bilateral agreement with Spain and Latin America). But, apparently I (and many other I might say) was proven wrong.
I think the problem is that you are assuming that there is a single bilateral between Spain and all the countries in Latin America , in fact there is probably one for each country each with its own conditions , my thinking is that some of those agreements have ownership clauses , whilst others either lack them , or having been willing to work around them .
Is there anyone out there familiar with the various bilaterals who can confirm whether this would be the case ?
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
Burkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4248 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1884 times:
I could understand a limited investment of LH in Spanair and Air Comet, the majority by Grupo Marsans. Develop a product with suitable prize/quality ration around it. Integrate that with TAP ( and AR ), if investment wise or just through *A - a few years of work and you have a network together that can compete with BA/IB. Develop new routes to South America using A332 ( ex SR). A *A hub at Barcelona. Things fit too nice and cheap not to give it a try...
25 Kiwiandrew: why ? firstly , I think it would end up being two , not three if by some longshot this comes off - I am sure that if Marsans purchase JK they will me
26 Adicool: Well, the LAN-Group is more like "one" big airline with different subsidaries in each country. They don't compete with each other. I really think *A s
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