Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Lufthansa Looking At Offer For Spanair  
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26128 posts, RR: 50
Posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4709 times:

Good idea, keeping Spanair in Star Alliance.

Quote:
Lufthansa Looking At Offer For Spanair
July 23, 2007

Lufthansa is talking to contacts in Spain and Portugal about an offer for Spanair, which is being sold by Scandinavian carrier SAS, a Spanish newspaper reported.

Citing sources close to Spanair, the Cinco Dias newspaper said Lufthansa wants to use its links to Spanish travel firm Marsans and Portuguese airline TAP to reinforce its expansion into southern Europe.

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1185176832.html


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAdicool From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4556 times:

Expansion in southern Europe...hell let's forget about southern Europe and concentrate on South America!
It won't help LH expanding in the Latin American market by buying JK and I don't understand why they want to buy JK.
I rather see TP buying JK. By that, they could turn LIS into the new gate away and alternative to MAD to Latin America...let's say EZE-LIS-anywhere in Spain/Europe...sound pretty nice to me. LIS has a good advantage bc of it's geographical situation...


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6937 posts, RR: 77
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4521 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
Good idea, keeping Spanair in Star Alliance.

Hopefully an LH engagement would result in service improvements. Currently domestic flights, even the longer ones to the Canary Islands, are worse than on certain LCCs. Not even drinks are free, the stuff which they sell is over-priced, quality is low, numerous F/As appear unmotivated, check-in-machine (with all nice Star Alliance carriers' logos) at ACE out of order. Service on international flights is ok, but seat pitch in general is awful.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineOlle From Sweden, joined Feb 2007, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4499 times:

This is the same policy as for SAS. So when will LH go after SAS?

User currently offlineGatoVolador From Spain, joined Apr 2007, 435 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4483 times:

Quoting Adicool (Reply 1):
Expansion in southern Europe...hell let's forget about southern Europe and concentrate on South America!
It won't help LH expanding in the Latin American market by buying JK and I don't understand why they want to buy JK.
I rather see TP buying JK. By that, they could turn LIS into the new gate away and alternative to MAD to Latin America...let's say EZE-LIS-anywhere in Spain/Europe...sound pretty nice to me. LIS has a good advantage bc of it's geographical situation...

The "new Spanair", with a majority of the shareholders from Spain (remember that currently Spanair cannot operate to Latam due to the fact that SAS - a non Spanish firm - controls the airline), will be able to build a long haul network to compete with OW and IB.

Very interesting what you said about LIS, but notice that Spanair was willing to set its main airport at BCN if AENA (the airports authority) granted the airline with the new Terminal South, which will exceed the dimensions of the T4 in MAD. Since we expect the new terminal to be opened by 2008-2009, it can be a great oportunity to gather capacity in South Europe, which maybe LIS cannot offer in the short run. (Also take into account that BCN is a great place to catch passengers comming from any European country except from Portugal).

In addition, Marsans is the owner of Air Comet and also Aerolíneas Argentinas. A possible merger could be forecasted.

In my opinion, incorporating TAP is just an idea to avoid any trial of the Portuguese airline to beat Spanair/Air Comet in the South American market.


User currently offlineJD747 From Spain, joined Nov 2006, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4303 times:

Quoting GatoVolador (Reply 4):
Very interesting what you said about LIS, but notice that Spanair was willing to set its main airport at BCN if AENA (the airports authority) granted the airline with the new Terminal South, which will exceed the dimensions of the T4 in MAD.

What dimensions? Correct me if I'm wrong but the new BCN terminal is around 500.000 square meters and T4 in MAD (T4+T4S) is around 770.000 square meters. Not really sure thought  Confused



Juan D.
User currently offlineBeaucaire From Syria, joined Sep 2003, 5252 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4217 times:

I don't see any major strategic advantage in buying Spanair..
They don't go Interconti,they have a lousy service-record and don't bring any major gap-filling for LH.
Old fleet,badly motivated staff and not much flights into Germany neither - makes more sens for TAP than for LH.



Please respect animals - don't eat them...
User currently offlineFairchild24 From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4107 times:

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 6):
They don't go Interconti,they have a lousy service-record and don't bring any major gap-filling for LH.
Old fleet,badly motivated staff and not much flights into Germany neither - makes more sens for TAP than for LH.

JK fly to Malabo in Central Africa,

Why should TAP want "Old fleet, Badly motivated staff" if LH doesn't.

JK dosn't fly much to Portugal either

cheers

Göran



Radial engine does not leak oil, they only mark there territory
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4089 times:

Quoting Fairchild24 (Reply 7):
JK fly to Malabo in Central Africa,

Dont they do Banjul from BCN/LPA/MAD and some North African flights as well?



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlineRogerbcn From Andorra, joined Sep 2006, 1209 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4077 times:

Hola JD747!

Quoting JD747 (Reply 5):
What dimensions? Correct me if I'm wrong but the new BCN terminal is around 500.000 square meters and T4 in MAD (T4+T4S) is around 770.000 square meters. Not really sure thought

I think this post was refering to just T4 dimensions, excluding T4S.

Salut!

Roger



"At reise er at leve" H.C. Andersen (Travelling is Living)
User currently offlineFairchild24 From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4020 times:

Quoting Humberside (Reply 8):
Quoting Fairchild24 (Reply 7):
JK fly to Malabo in Central Africa,

Dont they do Banjul from BCN/LPA/MAD and some North African flights as well?

Yepp, Thats true, ALG and CMN

Cheers

Göran



Radial engine does not leak oil, they only mark there territory
User currently offlineAdicool From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3898 times:

How exactly are JK and AR connected to each other through the Grupo Marsans and A7?
Would buying into JK mean the new owner would also get some influence within AR?
I hope I didn't misunderstand something...

Anyways, I think it's not necessary for LH to buy JK bc Spain is already quit well served by LH. JK don't really contribute anything to *A expect for domestic service in Spain and - as it has been stated her before - the reputation of JK is not the best when it comes to service etc. They are really only in *A bc SK wanted it...same with BD.
As long as JK won't be able to start service to Latin America bc of their foreign main shareholders, the airlines won't be to attractive...but once his will change...hell, we will see some JK flight from BCN to LatinAmerica
(question: Why can JK fly to Africa but not Latin America? Could somebody explain the bilateral agreement Spain has with the Latin American countries?).
I can understand that LH are interested in widening their network, but I don't think they are willing to pay a high prize - it's seems to be rather lukewarm.
TP on the other hand are dying to get further into the European/Spanish market and by buying JK (and improving their service please) they could do so...

I have to say, TP have quietly improved their service and network and I heard some rumors about flying to other countries in Latin America besides Brazil...hope by buying JK they can push forward more into that specific market.


User currently offlineFairchild24 From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3876 times:

JK flew to South America before with a B767, both to San Paulo and RIO

Cheers

Göran



Radial engine does not leak oil, they only mark there territory
User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5569 posts, RR: 36
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3837 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 2):
Hopefully an LH engagement would result in service improvements. Currently domestic flights, even the longer ones to the Canary Islands, are worse than on certain LCCs. Not even drinks are free, the stuff which they sell is over-priced, quality is low, numerous F/As appear unmotivated

That's the same as with IB. A few weeks ago I flew ZRH-MAD-TFS on IB. I think it was the worst experience on a so called legacy carrier. You even paid 1.5 € for water, the f/a were mostly unfriendly, the pilots did not address once to the passengers on three of the four flights and seat pitch is very poor. Why don't they call themselves an LCC and give low prizes. When I booked and paid quite much I expected else.


User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6937 posts, RR: 77
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3825 times:

Quoting ZRH (Reply 13):
You even paid 1.5 € for water, the f/a were mostly unfriendly, the pilots did not address once to the passengers on three of the four flights and seat pitch is very poor.

Oh, how familiar that sounds...

Btw - if anyone interested, I've just finished a trip report about my domestic experience on Spanair:
Canaries And Confusion: LH CRJ900 & Spanair A321 (by PlaneHunter Jul 24 2007 in Trip Reports)

Quoting ZRH (Reply 13):
Why don't they call themselves an LCC and give low prizes. When I booked and paid quite much I expected else.

 checkmark 

They rather prefer operating silently like a LCC while charging legacy prices and (probably proudly) carrying Star Alliance or oneworld logos...


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineEE-Kay From Ireland, joined Nov 2001, 152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3737 times:

These days, the only difference between IB & JK on one side and AZ & OA on the other is that at least AZ & OA are still "full service" carriers losing money, whereas IB & JK are no-frills legacy carriers thereby still in the black.

eE-Kay


User currently offlineAdicool From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3663 times:

ditto...
That's why I don't think LH want to buy JK bc of their rather bad reputation...
Do you have to pay for beverages and food on domestic flights with JK? I only took them once from BCN to Jerez and that was ages ago...they just wouldn't fit LH style and system...respectivly it would cost a lot do have them upgraded...rather buy IB I'd say.

Quoting Fairchild24 (Reply 12):
JK flew to South America before with a B767, both to San Paulo and RIO

Now can anyone confirm this? If this is the case, then I'm really confused. When did they use to fly to GRU and GIG and when did SK become the majority shareholder of JK hence making it a non-Spanish company?


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26128 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3658 times:

Spanair also operated MAD-IAD scheduled service with its 763s.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrew Morrell




From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3478 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

interesting article in Flight International

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...as-could-join-spanair-in-star.html

suggesting that Marsans would like to keep JK in Star if they buy it and would look at trying to get their other carriers AR and Air Comet into Star as well . From my understanding both AR and Air Comet would require quite a bit of work to get qualify in terms of FF programmes / codeshares / res systems etc so I would imagine it would a long term development if it went ahead - but it certainly would help the somewhat limited coverage Star currently has in South America



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineAdicool From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3445 times:

Three Spanish/Latin American carriers in one alliance? I think that would be somewhat of an overkill for *A, especially having A7 and JK in *A as two Spanish carries (though A7 do not have domestic service?!?) plus AR. Maybe if Grupo Marsans would merge all of those three enterprises into one (and letting LH do they whole administrative stuff^^) then it could go well...but as you said, it would take quite some time, money and stamina to get A7 and AR into *A - though it would indeed fill - to a certain point - the whole *A has in Latin American (I'm still hoping for AV to become a member any time soon - AR in AV in *A - match made in heaven!).
As in a recent article, LH is apparently not interested anymore in JK respectively in any other carrier - leaving it to TP, who knows. But if you ask me, that's BS - if LH will have the chance to buy BD - hell they'll do it in a splint second...
How are AR and A7 doing? I know that ARs fleet is a little old and A7 are not supposed to have the best service...
*A might have the most members and from time to time it's seems like they accepting everybody, but under the recent circumstances, no AR in *A anytime soon...the only Latin American carriers that would be accepted into *A are (IMHO) AV, TA, CM (though won't happen, they'll go with Skyteam bc of CO)...I don't know what *A think of JJ right now after the recent crash.
When playing around with some ideas for the Latin American market and *A, I always though of PU and MVD being a great place to start flight to southern Latin American (i.d. Chile, Bolivia, Paraguay, Argentina, southern Brazil)...but you know, of course complete BS and will never happen...I just have a thing for MVD and PU!
my two cents!


User currently offlineHanginOut From Austria, joined May 2005, 550 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

If I were LH, I'd be far more interested acquiring BD and/or SK and all of their subsidiary airlines than JK. Although Iberia would be a nice acquisition, BA would make it far too difficult and expensive for this to become a reality (that and the bidding war that would break out with Air France-KLM, even if BA were willing to let Iberia go, make Iberia less and less of a target for LH).

I wouldn't be too surprised if LH is looking to airlines in other parts of the world to invest/acquire as well. If the US Government ever got rid of their protectionist rules I'm sure LH would try to acquire UA and might be interested in an Asian and/or South American airline as well.



Dreaming of the day I can work for an airline
User currently offlineFairchild24 From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3353 times:

Quoting Adicool (Reply 16):
Quoting Fairchild24 (Reply 12):
JK flew to South America before with a B767, both to San Paulo and RIO

Now can anyone confirm this? If this is the case, then I'm really confused. When did they use to fly to GRU and GIG and when did SK become the majority shareholder of JK hence making it a non-Spanish company?

Adicool, you can find some short history at www.spanair.com.
If my memory dosen´t fail me JK terminated the South American route -03 or -04.
If I recall right SK has been a major share holder almost from the beginning.
(in fact I think we started it)

Cheers

Göran



Radial engine does not leak oil, they only mark there territory
User currently offlineAdicool From Netherlands, joined Apr 2007, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3307 times:

Okay...
I am really really confused here right now. I heard so many times that JK can not fly to any Latin American destinations bc they are not a Spanish company and hence do not have the permission do to so (I'm not fully involved with the bilateral agreement with Spain and Latin America). But, apparently I (and many other I might say) was proven wrong.
So, if JK can actually fly from their home base BCN to, let's say EZE, though the majority shareholder is foreign...well than, IMHO, LH should try to buy them ASAP...of course JK would need some desperate upgrade when it comes to service and aircrafts for such long haul routes and to connect to further European cities like FRA, HAM, VIE, BRU...but by buying JK, LH gets a Spanish domestic network in order to feed their flights and international connection through *A...
I'm a little overwhelmed by all of that...


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3247 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Adicool (Reply 22):
I am really really confused here right now. I heard so many times that JK can not fly to any Latin American destinations bc they are not a Spanish company and hence do not have the permission do to so (I'm not fully involved with the bilateral agreement with Spain and Latin America). But, apparently I (and many other I might say) was proven wrong.

I think the problem is that you are assuming that there is a single bilateral between Spain and all the countries in Latin America , in fact there is probably one for each country each with its own conditions , my thinking is that some of those agreements have ownership clauses , whilst others either lack them , or having been willing to work around them .

Is there anyone out there familiar with the various bilaterals who can confirm whether this would be the case ?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4409 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3173 times:

I could understand a limited investment of LH in Spanair and Air Comet, the majority by Grupo Marsans. Develop a product with suitable prize/quality ration around it. Integrate that with TAP ( and AR ), if investment wise or just through *A - a few years of work and you have a network together that can compete with BA/IB. Develop new routes to South America using A332 ( ex SR). A *A hub at Barcelona. Things fit too nice and cheap not to give it a try...

25 Kiwiandrew : why ? firstly , I think it would end up being two , not three if by some longshot this comes off - I am sure that if Marsans purchase JK they will me
26 Adicool : Well, the LAN-Group is more like "one" big airline with different subsidaries in each country. They don't compete with each other. I really think *A s
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
AA Looking At A300's For JFK-LGB posted Thu May 8 2003 01:57:08 by LAXINTL
Air Tahiti Nui Looking At A345 For CDG-PPT Nonstop posted Sat Jan 25 2003 13:38:04 by Kaitak
Here We Go Again: Lufthansa Looking At A330 posted Fri Aug 31 2001 19:27:45 by Johnnybgoode
FL To Offer Seat Assignments At Booking For Fee posted Sun Jun 3 2007 20:06:24 by ATLAaron
Qantas Looking At 777/A340 For Dallas posted Thu Mar 30 2006 19:44:57 by Boeing767-300
Earliest Check-in For Spanair At MAD? posted Fri Sep 10 2004 00:24:12 by JoseMEX
Russians Looking At Terrorism As Cause For S7 1812 posted Fri Oct 5 2001 21:36:49 by Aviatsiya
Atlas Air Still Looking At B763F, A332F posted Fri Jul 20 2007 09:14:24 by Flying-Tiger
What Is Construction At FLL For? posted Tue Jul 17 2007 21:31:26 by Fllcontinental
CLE To Offer $$ For New Flights posted Fri Jul 13 2007 07:24:58 by MasseyBrown