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Foreigners Say Brazil Needs Outside Aviation Help  
User currently offlineTACAA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (7 years 3 months 18 hours ago) and read 2791 times:

Is Brazil in desperate need to fix its chaotic air travel system ? Is it really that bad?

Well, according with some "expert" the answer is yes. Nevertheless, some Brazilians don't think so.

" ... "They're a bunch of idiots wanting to intervene in our affairs," Jose Carlos Pereira, head of the national airport authority, told reporters. "Brazil doesn't need international help. They should care for their air space and we'll take care of ours."

http://www.reuters.com/article/marke...sNews/idUKN2338049120070723?rpc=44


What do you think about it ?

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (7 years 3 months 18 hours ago) and read 2780 times:

You should always be open to advice, the rules are set by ICAO and they decide which actions to take, not Brazil themselves.

User currently offlineReality From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 496 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (7 years 3 months 17 hours ago) and read 2764 times:

Quoting TACAA320 (Thread starter):
"Brazil doesn't need international help. They should care for their air space and we'll take care of ours."

Agree. Brasilians are smart and know what needs to be done. They don't need help from outside. It's just a matter of money and will......and all countries struggle with this sometimes. Of course criticism may be fine if it helps them to get their act together.


User currently offlineMd94 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (7 years 3 months 15 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

I think the main hope is Brazil will actually follow through and fix the problems. I hope they will unite as a country to fix them and quite the squabbling between the politicians, military and other agencies. It is time to find a solution and move forward for the safety of everyone.


72?, 732/3/7/8, 763/4, 773, 744, MD88/90, F100, 319/20/21, E145/135/175/195, CRJ200/700, B206, 152/72/82, CH47, F16D,
User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (7 years 3 months 14 hours ago) and read 2669 times:

Hi!

Brazil is one of the countries that have civil aviation since many, many years ago. Air transportation in Brazil is huge and when I flew there I never noticed that I was in danger. I agree that probably they need to make some changes, we cannot forget that in the last few year two airlines ( TAM and GOL ) emerged with really big networks and probably the country was not yet prepared for that. They'll need to adapt, maybe they need to look sharply ways to improve the growing traffic and getting advice doesn't mean that you cannot handle things....it's just an humble way to do it!!! I flew TAM and Varig and they looked professional, the airports I flew in were good and the planes were good too. We cannot evaluate Brazil civil aviation only because that tragic accident at Congonhas!
Regards


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (7 years 3 months 10 hours ago) and read 2591 times:

Quoting TACAA320 (Thread starter):
" ... "They're a bunch of idiots wanting to intervene in our affairs," Jose Carlos Pereira, head of the national airport authority, told reporters. "Brazil doesn't need international help. They should care for their air space and we'll take care of ours."

Nice attitude. Let's see, the courts run accident investigations, the police decide why the airplane crashed, and people who really know how to actually do these things are "idiots".

Maybe this guy should work for the FAA.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (7 years 3 months 10 hours ago) and read 2554 times:

Quoting CV990 (Reply 4):
We cannot evaluate Brazil civil aviation only because that tragic accident at Congonhas!

No we cannot.

But politicians interfering with things like ATC or aviation safety is always dangerous things. And calling people who represent ATCOs from all over the world (including Brazil) "idiots" doesn't help.

I can only display my opinion on this, but apparently there have been issues, and the government appears to be more interesting in covering this up instead of finding solutions. Example: At least a tower controller must have witnessed the TAM crash. Has there been a hearing? What did he say? Why the hell do they refuse to give out any information of what is actually done?

SailorOrion


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5428 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (7 years 3 months 9 hours ago) and read 2520 times:

Quoting SailorOrion (Reply 6):
But politicians interfering with things like ATC or aviation safety is always dangerous things. And calling people who represent ATCOs from all over the world (including Brazil) "idiots" doesn't help.

I agree. With my limited understanding of the Brazilian aviation system, and from what some of our Brazilian A.netters have even said, there appears to be no separation between the political system and the aviation system. The initial comments from 'politicians' after the 2 recent accidents, certainly show that there is something that needs to be fixed.

Personally, I believe Brazil has the knowledge and expertise to fix their problems ... it's the politics that will hold them back.

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6609 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (7 years 3 months 9 hours ago) and read 2509 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I wonder how does this incident bode for Brazil's 2016 Olympic bid...


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinePU752 From Uruguay, joined Mar 2005, 584 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (7 years 3 months 7 hours ago) and read 2412 times:

Quoting CV990 (Reply 4):
We cannot evaluate Brazil civil aviation only because that tragic accident at Congonhas!

Right, but theres more than a coincidence to me for killing more than 350 people in less than 1 year in the same country.


User currently offlineTavong From Colombia, joined Jul 2001, 836 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (7 years 3 months 7 hours ago) and read 2390 times:

Quoting PU752 (Reply 9):
Right, but theres more than a coincidence to me for killing more than 350 people in less than 1 year in the same country.

Sorry, I can be misunderstanding your post, but i can find very offensive if you say that the Brazilians "killed" more than 350 people en less than 1 year. I really find hard to understand that those accidents where intentional has you imply on your post.

Anyway if politics interfere with the Brazilin aviation system it´s not much different that what happens in most of the Southamerican countries, it´s a big problem that needs to be solved and fast.

Gus
SKBO



Colombian coffee, the best...take a cup and you will see how delicious it is.
User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4104 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (7 years 3 months 7 hours ago) and read 2371 times:

Quoting CV990 (Reply 4):
Brazil is one of the countries that have civil aviation since many, many years ago. Air transportation in Brazil is huge and when I flew there I never noticed that I was in danger. I agree that probably they need to make some changes, we cannot forget that in the last few year two airlines ( TAM and GOL ) emerged with really big networks and probably the country was not yet prepared for that. They'll need to adapt, maybe they need to look sharply ways to improve the growing traffic and getting advice doesn't mean that you cannot handle things....it's just an humble way to do it!!! I flew TAM and Varig and they looked professional, the airports I flew in were good and the planes were good too. We cannot evaluate Brazil civil aviation only because that tragic accident at Congonhas!
Regards

I think this is something that happens to countries when they seemingly over night find their economies on the fast track to becoming a significantly more developed nation. India as well as Brazil suddenly finds themselves confronted with this. I think it is very important for countries who went through this years earlier like the U.S./Canada and the E.U. to share ideas and be a resource, but not a force of coercion.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineMeridianBUF From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (7 years 3 months 7 hours ago) and read 2353 times:

Very easy solution:

Bring back full Military control to all avaition in Brasil. The way it was from the good old days of Castelo Branco...


User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (7 years 3 months 6 hours ago) and read 2314 times:

Hi!

Quoting PU752 (Reply 9):

I really think that's simply a coincidence...do you know how many flights are normally around Brazil everyday??? If we want to take countries that had accidents less than one year apart then we probably have a lot of unsafe countries, like Nigeria, Indonesia, Colombia, Russia, etc. etc. from those countries I've mentioned, I was in Brazil and Colombia in these last 3 years and I cannot say that I was ever unsafe flying there!!!
regards


User currently offlinePU752 From Uruguay, joined Mar 2005, 584 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (7 years 3 months 6 hours ago) and read 2309 times:

Quoting Tavong (Reply 10):
Sorry, I can be misunderstanding your post, but i can find very offensive if you say that the Brazilians "killed" more than 350 people en less than 1 year. I really find hard to understand that those accidents where intentional has you imply on your post.

I got your point, I didnt mean it in that way, just saying that wansn't just a coincidence from my point of view.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.


User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6854 posts, RR: 34
Reply 15, posted (7 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 2243 times:

Quoting TACAA320 (Thread starter):
"Brazil doesn't need international help. They should care for their air space and we'll take care of ours."

Yeah, you're doing a helluva good job there pal!

Like prosecuting American pilots without cause. That'll solve your problems--scapegoating.

Brazil is harming their very economic growth and the prosperity of the country by having an aviation system that is so woefully inadequate (incompetent?)...it is frightening.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5428 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (7 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 2234 times:

Quoting CV990 (Reply 13):
we probably have a lot of unsafe countries, like Nigeria, Indonesia, Colombia, Russia, etc. etc.

OK, I'm not saying Brazil aviation is unsafe, but if those countries are your best comparison, then there is a problem!


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6854 posts, RR: 34
Reply 17, posted (7 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 2206 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 16):

OK, I'm not saying Brazil aviation is unsafe, but if those countries are your best comparison, then there is a problem!


Jimbo

When you have a catastrophic accident that kills several hundred people because the BASIC infrastructure of the country's largest city's primary domestic airport is insufficient, I'd say the comparison to a third world country is valid in context.

Sad to say, I love the Brazilians and fully acknowledge their proud legacy in aviation and past. But they need severe and strong reform and cannot wait.


User currently offlineTACAA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (7 years 3 months 4 hours ago) and read 2162 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 15):
Quoting TACAA320 (Thread starter):
"Brazil doesn't need international help. They should care for their air space and we'll take care of ours."



Quoting Slider (Reply 15):

Yeah, you're doing a helluva good job there pal!

Just a necessary clarification. Those are not my words.

Jose Carlos Pereira, head of the national airport authority said so.


User currently offlineBobprobert95 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1799 times:

Brazil is an awsome country and I certainly enjoyed my time at 5 airports when I spent ten days there last year. Varig was the only part that sucked. 777 with no entertainment system both there and back. On the trip back my reading light didn't even work! Recife was one of the most beautiful airports that I have ever been in.

It's a growth country and whenever you grow fast that covers problems that you have the same is true in business. Brazil will get it fixed and they should use outside help when they can, if it is prudent.

The key is that politicians are involved and when that happens everything goes to hell b/c they have to pander to interest groups. It is my belief that the best and brightest don't go into politics they go into business b/c they don't get held back generally. I can only speak for my 5 years in DC here in the states.

The long and short of it is go to Brazil. Cool country, cool people!

JB

(Remember how many people are dying in car crashes this second! Aviation is that safe IMHO.)


User currently offlineAAEXP From Brazil, joined Jul 2005, 424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1783 times:

Quoting Slider (Reply 15):
Like prosecuting American pilots without cause

Sounds like Joe Sharkey  Wink


User currently offlineDougbr2006 From Brazil, joined Oct 2006, 393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1727 times:

Quoting TACAA320 (Thread starter):
Jose Carlos Pereira

A case of "mirror mirror on the wall". "They're a bunch of idiots wanting to intervene in our affairs," he must have been looking at himself in the mirror to get the idea to use these words, this guy is on the "third rock from the moon"


User currently offlineAbrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5124 posts, RR: 55
Reply 22, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1615 times:

Brasil has been one of the pioneers in Latin America for aviation. While I strongly think better decisions need to be made to make aviation safer in the country, I think its incorrect to lie blame with a whole nation. Unfortunately, every country has special interests that dictate how aviation (among others) needs to be run (with emphasis on profits). Politicans and airline companies lobbying for lax or indifferent rules is not confined to just Brasil.

Moreover, in a vibrant democracy like Brasil (as apathetic it might seem on some issues), I am fairly confident that the public outcry will demand change. Outsiders can always advice; but Brasil is NOT some small country without extremely qualified professionals.

Cheers,
A.

PS: Perhaps its just me, but I think this topic is meant to egg on instead of have a genuine discourse.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 2 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1551 times:

Hi!

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 16):

I think you didn't understand my point. I simply went to Aviation-Safety homepage and took the countries that got "some more accidents" than normal...".and those were the countries that showed up. For example in 2004 there was a big tragic accident in Egypt, in 2003 there was one in Algeria, Sudan, Guinée, in 2002 for example there were 3 big major accidents with airlines from China ( a 767, a MD80 and a 747 )...only to say that this year sadly the country called Brazil showed up...but tomorrow it can be Portugal, Greece, USA or Canada!
Regards


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