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TWA Running Out Of Cash  
User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 12
Posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3495 times:

Today's New York Times reported that TWA has missed payments to its employee's pension plan and that a law
suit may be filed. The article also mentioned that TWA
has less cash on hand than last year at this time.

TWA has missed the greatest profit streak the US air
line industry has ever enjoyed. With the economy now
slowing sharply and demand for airline seats likely to
suffer as a result, I wonder what will happen to TWA.


59 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineILUV767 From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3142 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3220 times:

I think that TWA will file for chapter 11, and disapear. United or other carriers may try to pick up there JFK slots. In 10 years they will come back as a small regional carrier.

In order for them to make aprofit, they have to offer a better route structure. If they really want to keep STL, then do it, but add a hub in the west, with north and south operations, and of course make a southern hub. They need to be able to move people to and from citys other than St. Louis!

User currently offlineTWA From Iran, joined Sep 2010, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3209 times:

I pray that TWA will be just fine. I think they need to drop JFK, Remodel, and expand STL then Open a Hub in the west. Possibly PHX, or LAS. Only thing that concerns me is both airports are already congested as it is.

Happy Holidays


User currently offlineTWA From Iran, joined Sep 2010, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3195 times:

If TWA wants to make a southern Hub how about MCO? MCO is one of the most appealing cities in the World, and same with the airport. MCO has soooooooo much room to grow, and I think The Airport Authaurity would build TWA a new Terminal if they were serious about a Hub in MCO


User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6291 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3175 times:

Eastern used to have a big hub at MCO, or was it MIA? No, I think it was MCO. That could be a profitable market for TWA. They could strike a deal with Walt Disney World and kick out Delta as the official Disney airline....

Just my two dollars.

User currently offlineTWA From Iran, joined Sep 2010, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3154 times:

Hiya, Eastern had their largest Hub at MIA. MCO would be great for TWA. Is Delta still the official airline of Disney?

Happy Holidays


User currently offlineBritAir777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3149 times:

Well, I think OKC is a great place for TWA, i would hate to see them go under. OKC is remodeling and has lots of room, it is 8th largest airport in land area. There is lots of room for expanding.

B r i t A i r 7 7 7

User currently offlineGibberish From Switzerland, joined Sep 2000, 424 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3137 times:

Hi guys

It would really be sad to see another former great airline go under again. But what exactly triggered their financial situation? I mean, they used to be a huge airline with lots of international (and domestic) routes. Do they even fly international anymore? I don't think so. Could it be that TWA800 is one of the reasons that they are in struggle? I would appreciate it if someone could inform me or give me some information.



User currently offlineUSAirways737 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 1026 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3136 times:

one word gibberish: icahn

User currently offlineTWA From Iran, joined Sep 2010, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3125 times:

TWA is a great airline!!!!! Yes we still fly International. I dont think TWA FL# 800 is a major problem for TWA.


User currently offlineCle_tim From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3125 times:

Geez...a TWA discussion without a Acvitale responce...whats going on? Hurry up and defend TWA while you still can!

User currently offlineRepublic From Canada, joined Dec 2012, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3111 times:

Which airlines will benefit most by a TWA demise (which I hope does not happen)? Southwest would increase operations at STL. But that would still leave a big void. AA? ORD and DFW too close to open a new hub. CO? Not enough aircraft to open a new hub. UA? I hope not. DL? Finally give up a losing battle with AA at DFW and move what's left at DFW to Lambert? NW? MEM is not near the type of hub that other airlines have, so maybe a emphasis on STL? And my personal favorite, assuming they too survive, is Pan Am. Move from Mid America (BLV) to STL, but they don't have enough aircraft either. What do you think?

TWA has been on the ropes for quite some time. I'm sure the majors have contingency plans should TW go down and not be able to get up this time.

Long live TWA,

User currently offlineRyanair From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3090 times:

TWA has very good money management, as a general trend the balance sheet keeps increasing in value despite their operating losses, this last quarter it's gone down but to take this one off as meaningful is premature.

The pensions issue at TWA is very complex from the Ichan days and now with Karabu (discussed at length before here). Missing payments may be connected to that whole mess in a strategic way so might not in truth be what it appears.

The reason TWA missed the current boom is Karabu allowing Ichans lowestfare.com to sell their tickets at give away prices thus devistating their income. There's no real way of knowing what will happen to TWA after Karabu expires, it might flurish with new planes and high yield (With lowestfare.com out of the picture) or might to be weak to withstand any general economic turbulance.

User currently offlineAATripleseven From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3083 times:

What is TWA's ultimate plan? I know they are expanding in the Caribbean and cutting down on European operations. They aren't ordering widebodies and I haven't seen dramatically increased domestic operations. JFK flights are being cut however should be kept because DL and AA are opening new terminals and up and coming jetBlue is posing a threat. Doesn't that indicate that something good is going on at JFK? Why are they bowing out and where are they going? I have a personal inerest in seeing that TWA survives but am confused on their master plan.

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User currently offlineTWAneedsNOhelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3088 times:

There are several reasons why TWA has missed out on the current airline boom and continues to lose money.

1) The most common answer is the Karabu Ticketing Agreement, which allows Carl Ichan, past TWA owner, to buy any ticket on TWA for 55% of its listed fare. Ichan than resells the tickets through his Lowestfare.com website at 75% of listed fare and in the process decimate TWA's yields on tons of flights. In fact much of the JFK-Europe pulldown has been because these flights were full of pax travelling on Karabu tickets and TW could fill the plane and make no money.

2) TWA is a shadow of its former self operationally, but as big as its former self costwise. Because of stringent union work rules and intensive gov't labor laws TW still maintains and pays for a tremendous infrastructure in Europe with 40 employees working at stations that see 2 flights daily, with their own expensive equipment and real estate. For this reason, TW has been rapidly closing stations in Italy, Spain, and Potugal as this is the only way to lay off inefficient staff.

3) Even here in America, because of union agreements TW has several obsolete clauses that the IAM insists upon that keep TWA bleeding money. TWA's Hangar 12 at JFK is a tremendous cost but rarely used. TWA's Maintance and Overhaul Base in Kansas City also is much too inefficient to be used profitably. There are tons of other work rules that TWA suffers from that its competitors don't.

4) Reputation. TWA still suffers from its early 90s and mid 80s repuatation as a dowdy carrier with late flights, old facilities, and decrepit planes. TWA has worked hard over the last 3 years to retire its entire fleet of 747, 727, and L1011 while replacing these planes with brand new 757s and 717s. Also TWA has retired in large amounts old DC9s and 767-200s and added newer but used MD80s and 767-300ERs.

5) Becuase of Karabu, TWA has been shuned in the alliance dating game and only recently signed agreements with America West, Air Europa, Air Malta, and Kuwait Airways.

6) TWA's JFK hub has been under attack from oneworld, SkyTeam, and Star alliances and its domestic flights are still being threatened by JetBlue's ultra low fares. JFK-PBI/FLL and LGA-PBI were ended after JB started flights. However, these operations were really from a different time when pax from around teh country flew to JFK to meet nightime flights aboard Tristars and 747s to Europe.

The good news is TWA has been rebounding. The new agreements mentioned above will add to revenue, the Karabu agreement is set to expire on 30 Sep 2003, and TWA to add revenue to already constant costs TWA has expanded by opening "focus citys" at SJU and LAX. Additionally TWA has signed agreements with several travel aggencies to run weekend charters from JFK, BOS, and EWR to the Carribean in exchange for guarranteed profit on all flights. Also, TWA's operational performance is superior to that of any other American airline over the last 2 years and despite recent Winter weather at Lambert, TWA is focused on running a tight ship.

It is my opinon TWA will do fine in the long run. A new widebody order is rhumored as is a Pacific expansion at its LAX Focus City. New Chataqua regional jets at STL are improving TWE service and TW's recently signed agreements with American Eagle at JFK and LAX will only put more pax on TW flights to the Carribean, Israel, and West Coast.

User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3070 times:

TWA does not have enough cash to order new planes, open a west coast hub (as someone suggested), re-
model STL, and so forth.....TWA is limping along. As
long as demand remains high (largely due to spillover
from UA, DL, and NW because of their labor problems)
and provided the domestic economy doesn't tip into
recession, TWA can survive. A recession, even a
mild one, a drop in demand, will spell the end for
TWA. It has few remaining assets to dispose of to
raise cash.


User currently offlineAATripleseven From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3056 times:


Thanks for the info!


User currently offlineN960AS From Switzerland, joined Apr 2000, 467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3052 times:

No, no, no TWA can't go! I understand they are in major trouble, but no they have to 'suck it up' until September 30th 2003 when they're free of that stupid Karabu.

About the West Coast hub I agree they couldn't do that. However with code shares and decent partners they might be able to get more pax on flights out of LAX. If America West code shares for TWA that's LAS and PHX (plus CMH?) flights to feed LAX. Alaska is a TW partner but if they start code sharing? Then that adds PDX, SEA, SFO, BOI, EUG, ANC and many Western Mexican destinations to feed flights. And that is all in addition to AA Eagle flights. If they finally start LAX-BOS that will add to JFK and DCA which are pretty important markets from LAX they'd be be pretty big on LAX-East Coast routes and DCA is an exclusive route.

JFK makes me sad! I hate to see one of my favorite airlines loosing lots of money at my favorite airport serving my favorite city. However as long as the can still make money on transcons to CA, STL, MIA, MCO, SJU and the rest of the Caribbean I'm happy. It is depressing that the European flights are dropping like flies, but as long as they keep alive (and keep CDG!) then ok.

I'm rambaling, so I'm going to say good afternoon and the best wishes to TWA!

TWAneedsnoHelp: I wish I was alive for those glory days of TWA flying to many flights to Europe on L10s and 747s. Oh well.

User currently offlineBH346 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 3265 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3037 times:

Long live TWA!
Where's Acvitale?

Best Regards,
Happy Holidays

Northwest Airlines - Some People Just Know How to Fly
User currently offlineZrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3527 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3037 times:

Having recently become a life member of the Ambassador's Club, I am hoping that a larger airline with a greater club network merges with TW. I would really get a bang for my buck there! Still, it's quite sad comparing a current timetable to one from 15 years ago.

17 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2016
User currently offlineTWAneedsNOhelp From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3025 times:

America West and TWA recently announced a widescale codeshare agreement that puts TW code on west coast flights from PHX and LAS and HP code on midwestern hops from STL. See news and new route map at: http://www.TWA.com.

Add to the rhumors about the widebody order two more domestic codeshares. Should be exciting....


PS: AATripleseven, terrific picture!

User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4661 posts, RR: 31
Reply 21, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2983 times:

Ditto to Russ...TWA is a survivor. They've survived worse crises than a couple of missed pension payments. They'll get those made somehow. 2003 and the death of the evil Karabu vampire are on the way.

I get the impression that TWA's unions don't understand that TWA is no longer a major carrier and should not be expected to maintain 40-plus staffs at foreign stations, or inefficient old maintenance complexes. Survival is at stake. TWA will pull through, but the unions in my view have been almost as bad as Icahn. TWA has better things to spend its precious money on then featherbedding or dreams of past glory.

New dreams beckon, and TWA needs freedom to chase them.


Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2980 times:

Seems to me like an America West/TWA merger would create a nice airline, maybe in 2003.  

User currently offlineTWA From Iran, joined Sep 2010, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2968 times:

I hope their isnt a TWA/America West Merger. The only way I would support it would be be TWA bought America West, and aquired PHX & LAS. Forget Columbus.

I would rather see TWA stay Independent!!!!!


Happy Holidays


User currently offlineAcvitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (15 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

I am here...

First COEWR is a fool to predict the demise based on the current situation. Oil is down $10 a barrel this week alone.

TWA has been in tighter cash poisitions before. They are a survivor airline and will continue to survive.

The new planes and West Coast operations that COEWR says there is no money for are all ready occurring. LAX traffic continues to grow with a 60% increase since last year and the Caribbean continues to grow as well.

No new planes... Hmpphh.. Are you blind? In the last 5 years alone.... 27 Brand new 757-200s 15 717-200s 24 brand new MD83s 3 brand new 767-300ERs and then the newer (but used catagory includes) 5 767-300ERs and 47 MD83s. The A318,319,320 are due on property in 2003.

TWA is better than any other major in operational numbers holding the highest operation completion and the highest on time numbers for three years running.

As for growth. TWA is now #2 in the Caribbean with only AA having more traffic.

As for comparing old timetables to new ones... Well TWA is flying more RPMs to more destinations than anytime in the past. Better double check the destination list and the number of flights. Just because they are not flying 747s to Europe hardly means they are dead. It is easy to stereotype and hard to look at the facts when it debunks your beliefs. Yes cash is tight. The payments to the 401K are contractually permitted to be deferred. The IAM and ALPA know that. The ALPA union acknowledged it. The IAM is negoiating a contract starting January. I believe they are posturing. It is a large part of their antiquated work rules that put TWA where it is today (along with Icahn and Hughs and others) The JFK hanger situation is one major example. Others are catering trucks requiring a TWA mechanic on board and mechanics being required for walk arounds and push backs. (Of course this may make TWA safer then other majors with only 1 accident (TWA800) in 20 years, (Many claim TWA 800 was a missle and coverup not the wiring)

Also the MCI maint. base has had a lease signed that includes a 300 million bond issue that will result in the base being upgraded and overhauled... That will make it much easier for TWA to subcontract work as well as do its own with upgraded facilities and tooling..

My take is TWA will survive.. Many have called for TWAs demise over the last 13 years. They have all been wrong. Wall Street said they would lose 1.63 a share last quarter they were off .26 a share.

In 2003. Ameriflot, Unitafolt, and the financially ailing TWA.  

25 TWAneedsNOhelp : Dont forget Deltaflot which with the new livery applied all over will be more "flot" than ever!
26 Post contains images TWA : Well Said Acvitale HAPPY HOLIDAYS TWA
27 ContinentalEWR : Acvitale, Your knowledge and analysis are impressive dude but don't call me a fool because you don't agree with me. You've made calls on TWA before an
28 Skyliner777 : TWA will most likely go the way of Pan Am, Eastern, and Delta. All three airlines were bought by Texas Air Corporation and now run as Canadian Airline
29 TWAneedsNOhelp : :::::::The STL hub stinks::::: No it doesn't! It may not be the newest flashiest airline terminal in the country, but as congested and busy as it is,
30 Ryanair : Looking at the numbers TWA should unless something completely off the wall happens, be in business for 1 October 2003, dawn of the post Karabu Age. Th
31 SegmentKing : So you think a healthy company would skimp by on bills ????? So it is allowed to make deferred payments.. wonderful.. But the fact it has to utilize t
32 TWAneedsNOhelp : Nate, I think your a jerk.
33 Watewate : Re:SegmentKing Personally, I'm happy if the airline I'm flying is above 80% on time or just one or two percentage points behind the leader. Right now
34 SegmentKing : Am I a jerk for pointing out stuff that Wall Street says that the cheerleaders fail to see?? TWA can't just jump into a market and make money on it. O
35 Post contains images TrnsWrld : I think TWA is well aware of what they need to focus on. Some people may easily say what they think the airline needs to do and if they did they would
36 TWA : Here we go again wit some spec dissing STL. I personally love STL!!!!! I never find it to be dirty, crammed, or dull. Its one of my favorite airports,
37 SegmentKing : Once the master plan at St. Louis starts, we will begin to watch TWA play lots of catch-up that is despirately needed.. hopefully the IAM will realize
38 N960AS : >>To build a hub in LAX is stupid. UA and AA dominate it and space is at a premium. Where did you hear that? It isn't true at all. LAX is in some way
39 Acvitale : Nate, NW is NOT #1 for the year. TW and NW were within .01 points of each other but NW got slammed with MEM, DTW, and MSP. TW will walk with #1 again
40 TWA : Go Acvitale!!!!! TWA
41 Ryanair : Very few companies that can get away with it, actually give up their cash when they are supposed to. Historically it's one of the major reasons small
42 SegmentKing : From the DOT: October 2000 Ontime AQ 90.5% NW 83.5% CO 82.5% DL 82.1% US 78.5% TW 77.7% Mishandled Bags for Oct HP 6.04 / per 100,000 pax TW 6.00 / pe
43 Acvitale : Nate, You and I both have access to the employee info lines of both carriers. We both know what the numbers for November and December to date are. Hen
44 Post contains images RayChuang : Actually, TWA is doing a lot better than people think. UNLIKE some airlines (NW [cough, cough] ), TW has done a lot to extensively rebuild their fleet
45 Awaramper : I hope and pray that TWA will never be allowed to disapear. I worked for TWA for about 2 yrs. and I enjoyed my time with them. As for TWA800, I don't
46 Wpr8e : TWA's market cap is about $90 million bucks. Guess what, one 747 is about $150 million. The airline is worth more broken up but that damn pension liab
47 Acvitale : Actually market cap is about 120 million. The caribbean yield is more then Europe and your comments show a clear lack of industry knowledge. Resumes o
48 SegmentKing : Albert, with respect.... a lot of people I know said that JetBlue has really cleared out parts of 1CC and STL.... people aren't fleeing the airline, b
49 Loserkid182 : All I can say is long live TWA!! The best U.S. airline!!!
50 VirginA340 : Is there any possibility that not only TWA will have JFK-FRA and STL-FRA but also out of JFK and STL but to Copenhagen, Zurich and Amsterdam and maybe
51 VirginA340 : Oh come on !!!! Some body has to know something to answer my previous post.
52 Acvitale : STL-FRA is expected this spring. The rest are not likely until additional widebodies are recieved. TWA is widebody lift limited and new routes require
53 Wpr8e : $120 million, $90 million big difference still can't buy a 747. As for the resumes, I can confirm that non union employees are sending their resumes o
54 TWAneedsNOhelp : OK, your post made reasonable sense this time Wpr8e. Too much capacity to the Carribean? Nope. In fact TW's loads have been so high that the airline h
55 MCOtoATL : First, let me state that I do not care for Icahn. On the other hand, it would be quite irresponsible for people to blame him for TWA's troubles. In Ju
56 UK-TWA : The name of Icahn's company was Karabu, not "Karibou". Secondly, the LHR routes were sold in 1991, not in 1984, as you claimed. Are you sure, you know
57 Acvitale : I agree the dates and facts you cite are in error. Icahn took over 1.5 billion between profits and raiding the pension funds from TWA. TWA then had to
58 MCOtoATL : Dear UK-TWA, First, you are correct; my mistake. TWA sold the Hathrow slots in 1991, not 1984. As it turns out, I have been reading a book about the s
59 Acvitale : It should also be noted that most of AA's ORD hub was part of the LHR route sale. Icahn sold the family jewels and pocketed the money, Raided the pens
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