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5th Freedom Rights  
User currently offlinePhxmkeflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 291 posts, RR: 0
Posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3746 times:

I have wondered about this for some time and couldn't find much in a search. I would like to know if any U.S. carriers have 5th Freedom rights? Is UA and NW in Tokyo considered 5th freedom? I also remember TWA used to fly quite a bit out of CDG to other European/Mediterranean cities, were those 5th freedom? Also, are there any countries out there which MAY allow for a U.S. based carrier to setup a hub in one of its cities?

Thanks for your info!

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3599 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3731 times:

Quoting Phxmkeflyer (Thread starter):
UA and NW in Tokyo considered 5th freedom?

Yes. NW has 5th freedom rights from any point in Japan to another point beyond. They also have 5th freedom rights out of AMS but I am not sure of the conditions. Currently SEA-AMS-BOM is a 5th freedom through AMS. UA has 5th freedom rights from Japan as well as I think from Hong Kong (Is HKG-SGN 5th freedom?).

NW also has I think a rare right where they can fly NRT-NGO-SPN but the NRT-NGO is not a domestic route and NRT originating pax cannot get off at NGO. But pax who transfer to the flight from an international flight can get off at NGO. NGO-NRT is esentially an international flight connecting to the NW network at NRT hub. NGO-SPN is 5th freedom but what is NGO-NRT? Pax that get on at NGO and are going to NRT MUST transfer to an international flight. Example: I am flying to MSP this winter via NRT. I will fly NW metal all the way NGO-NRT-MSP: All international flights with NW logos.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5807 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3659 times:

Quoting Phxmkeflyer (Thread starter):
I would like to know if any U.S. carriers have 5th Freedom rights?

Any US carrier who is designated by the US government has fifth freedom rights from Australia to some points in Asia. Points definately included are SIN, JKT, HKG & Japan, there could be more. No airline currently uses these rights.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3599 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3643 times:

Does DL have rights for carrying pax between Dakar and the US on their JNB flight or is this just a 2nd freedom (tech) thing.


Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineGemini573 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3636 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 1):
UA has 5th freedom rights from Japan as well as I think from Hong Kong (Is HKG-SGN 5th freedom?).

Yes, UA has 5th freedom out of HKG; SGN and SIN.


User currently offlineEHHO From Bulgaria, joined Dec 2005, 815 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3598 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 1):
NGO-SPN is 5th freedom but what is NGO-NRT?

It's called eighth freedom, or consecutive cabotage, and by your description NW does not have that right in Japan, so all passengers on that domsestic leg have to be international passengers, either directly on that flight, or connecting.

Here's the description from the Freedoms of the Air Annex to the Chicago Convention:

Quote:
Eighth Freedom of The Air - the right or privilege, in respect of scheduled international air services, of transporting cabotage traffic between two points in the territory of the granting State on a service which originates or terminates in the home country of the foreign carrier or (in connection with the so-called Seventh Freedom of the Air) outside the territory of the granting State



"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
User currently offlineHowSwedeitis From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3587 times:
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(Forgive my ignorance) What is 5th freedom?


Heja Sverige!!
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1651 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3587 times:

Not Much 5th Freedom at CO.... ROR-MNL is the only one I can think of; Island Hopper FSM and RMI (Micronesia and Republic of Marshal islands) KWA-MAJ "Domestic" Runs

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9739 posts, RR: 31
Reply 8, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3553 times:

PA and TW enjoyed 5th freedom rights in Europe and onwards to Asia. Most of these rights are dormant,not sure if they could be taken up again by DL and UA who inherited those rights. However, today's alliances have changed the needs to exercise such 5th freedom rights.

FX and UPS enjoy and do exercise 5th freedom rights on many routes, just to mention the big freight carriers..

.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineHowSwedeitis From Sweden, joined Jul 2007, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3530 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 6):
(Forgive my ignorance) What is 5th freedom?

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/Data/freedoms.htm

I have my answer now! Never mind the previous post!  embarrassed 



Heja Sverige!!
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7737 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3510 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
PA and TW enjoyed 5th freedom rights in Europe and onwards to Asia. Most of these rights are dormant,not sure if they could be taken up again by DL and UA who inherited those rights.

 checkmark 
Certainly PA used to operate from LHR to a number of European (mainly German) destinations. To operate these fifth freedom services that I believe were granted under Bermuda 1 and confirmed in Bermuda 2 they maintained a fleet of 727s and, in the mid 80s, a mixed fleet of 727s and 737s in Europe:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.


These rights (that also included PIK-OSL (or FBU as it then was) were passed to UA who brought their own fleet of 727s to Europe:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steven Freeman


UA subsequently withdrew from these routes. However as their 5th freedom rights were confirmed under Bermuda 2, the bilateral agreement between the UK and USA that remains in force until the end of March next year, I assume that UA still has these rights (unlwess they were part of the package they sold to DL).


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9739 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3491 times:

The traffic to and from Berlin was never 5th freedeom because the allied powers had the sovereignty over Berlin.

Bermuda I and II is OK,I am not sure but believe that the olpen skies agreement still has the 5th freedom rights included.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3463 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
am not sure but believe that the olpen skies agreement still has the 5th freedom rights included.

The US Open Skies model has unlimited intermediate and beyond 5ths for both parties. They exist in other liberal agreements - for example US-Australia and some restricted agreements - for example US-Japan.


User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1406 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3375 times:

Right, but the EU wanted to treat the whole EU as a single entity. Thus changing UAs dormant fifth freedom from LHR to Berlin into 8th freedom. Like when Germany reunited it changed a simple international flight from UK to US controlled sector in Berlin into a 5th freedom UK to DDR flight.

Not sure if the EU got all of what they wanted though - they were complaining about the lack of 8th freedom in the US.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25989 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3310 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 1):
Currently SEA-AMS-BOM is a 5th freedom through AMS.

Just a minor clarification. Only AMS-BOM is 5th freedom for NW. SEA-AMS and SEA-BOM are 3rd/4th freedom.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 1):
NGO-SPN is 5th freedom but what is NGO-NRT? Pax that get on at NGO and are going to NRT MUST transfer to an international flight.

Sorry, that's not correct. NGO-SPN for CO is 3rd/4th freedom since SPN is a US Territory. The entire route including any online connections in Japan is 3rd/4th freedom. It's much like QF who operate SYD-LAX-JFK. They can't carry local domestic passengers on the LAX-JFK-LAX sectors but they can carry their own connecting passengers. e.g. A passenger on a QF flight MEL-LAX can connect at LAX to the LAX-JFK sector of the SYD-LAX-JFK flight.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3263 times:

DL has full traffic rights on all sectors of its ATL-DKR-JNB flight. As such, DKR-JNB is considered 5th freedom.

US airlines have a number of 5th freedom authorities beyond or within Europe but they do not exercise them. One of the big hangups the EU airlines have about EU-US Open Skies is that the US carriers have rights within and beyond Europe that the EU carriers do not have in reciprocity from/within the US. The US carriers point out that they do not exercise those rights so they aren't really meaningful.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3209 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
PA and TW enjoyed 5th freedom rights in Europe and onwards to Asia. Most of these rights are dormant,not sure if they could be taken up again by DL and UA who inherited those rights. However, today's alliances have changed the needs to exercise such 5th freedom rights.

Pan Am used to fly JFK-FRA-KHI also, I used to fly Pan Am back in the 1970's and 80's. Of course, Pan Am Flight 73 is in the history books as something dubious....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineCslusarc From Canada, joined May 2005, 843 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3173 times:

Does anyone know which airlines is the largest "5th Freedom" operatior, or which airline that offers the most "5th Freedom" ASMs?


--cslusarc from YWG
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5807 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3161 times:

Quoting Cslusarc (Reply 17):
Does anyone know which airlines is the largest "5th Freedom" operatior, or which airline that offers the most "5th Freedom" ASMs?

No. But if you want to look, QF out of SIN would be a good place to start, with two B744s to LHR and one to FRA every night it must rank fairly high these days. Of course your problem would be to tell how many of those ASM are used by SIN orginating pax as opposed to Oz orginating.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineL1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 989 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3151 times:

I know that both Delta and United inherited their Europe and beyond 5th freedom rights from Pan Am when they took over their respective former Pan Am routes (UA mainly LHR rights, while DL took over the rest of the European network with the FRA hub). DL had 5th freedom rights from FRA to DEL and BOM (inherited from PA) and later CDG to BOM.

Does anyone know if American also inherited TWA´s 5th freedom rights? TWA´s 5th freedom rights were dormant in their last few years of operation and when AA took them over, however I´m sure they still had them.

Best regards

L1011Lover


User currently offlineL1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 989 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3149 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
Of course, Pan Am Flight 73 is in the history books as something dubious....

You refer to the september 1986 hijacking attack?


User currently offlineL1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 989 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3141 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):
Of course, Pan Am Flight 73 is in the history books as something dubious....

You refer to the september 1986 hijacking attack?


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9739 posts, RR: 31
Reply 22, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3122 times:

Quoting ADent (Reply 13):
Germany reunited it changed a simple international flight from UK to US controlled sector in Berlin into a 5th freedom UK to DDR fligh

whn Germany reunited, the "DDR" did not exist any more. SXF/FRA was domestic cabotage from that date on, no 5th freedom..TXL/FRA as well, since the sovereignty over Berlin transferred to the Federal Republic of Germany with the ratification of the 4+2 treaty.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 16):

Pan Am used to fly JFK-FRA-KHI also, I used to fly Pan Am back in the 1970's and 8



Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 19):
with the FRA hub). DL had 5th freedom rights from FRA to DEL and BOM (inherited from PA) and later C

They both could fly actually anywhere they wanted. We had IST BEY KHI and other destinations served from FRA over the years.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineANother From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3113 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
They both could fly actually anywhere they wanted

Sorry that isn't correct. They could fly anywhere the US government had secured route rights for. FRA-IST/BEY/KHI etc were only allowed as the USG had secured these rights for it's airlines.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9739 posts, RR: 31
Reply 24, posted (7 years 4 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3099 times:

Quoting ANother (Reply 23):
Sorry that isn't correct. They could fly anywhere the US government had secured route rights for. FRA-IST/BEY/KHI etc were only allowed as the USG had secured these rights for it's airlines

you will certainly agree with me that, if PA wanted to fly to a destination for which the US Government had not yet secured traffic rights, PA had enough clout in Washington to persuade the Government to secure such traffic rights?



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
25 L1011Lover : I never said they didn´t have traffic rights from FRA to BEY and KHI... etc. however DL never used PA´s traffic rights from FRA to BEY and KHI, as
26 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..unfortunately yes..... ...that being said, its nice to see LH starting KHI services again and BA at least starting cargo services to KHI ...hopeful
27 PlaneGuy27 : Other notables: EK JFK-HAM-DXB MH KUL-JNB-CPT-EZE AC YYZ-SCL-EZE LH FRA-GRU-EZE 9W DEL-BRU-YYZ 9W BOM-BRU-EWR A whole bunch on AI between US points -
28 Adools : Another interesting one is: LX: ZRH-GRU-SCL I came back on this flight 3 days ago, and the SCL-GRU was full of Brazilians returning from skiing in the
29 Viscount724 : And AC YVR-HNL-SYD with 5th freedom rights HNL-SYD, until they begin nonstop YVR-SYD later this year. And one recent one (since June), QR DOH-GVA-EWR
30 Sllevin : Almost certainly has to be either UA or NW ex-NRT; whichever is offering the most seats inter-asia. Steve
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